Thoughts on Pope Francis changing the “Our Father”

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anrmenchaca47

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Don’t know where to put this.

I found on www.francismary.com and article that says Pope Francis was changing the part that’s says “…and lead us not into temptation…” to “…do not let us fall into temptation…” His reasoning?
“God himself does not lead anyone into temptation, because He is a kind and omnipotent being and this action would be in contradiction with his nature.” - Pope Francis.

I would like to know thoughts on this simply because the prayer is VERY old, to say the least, and is found in Matthew 6:13 to be saying “…and lead us not into temptation…”

I don’t know what to think of this…I would figure that the only thing that would need to be changed would be the “but deliver us from evil” to “AND deliver us from evil” because the Latin says “sed(‘and’ in English)liberanos a malo”

…I don’t know…thoughts anyone? Thanks
 
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From what I understand, the U.S. bishops would have to submit a change to the translation themselves and have it approved by Rome, which is extremely unlikely to happen. The change made in Italy was made along with a plethora of other changes (basically like when U.S. missals were updated in 2011) and so they put this one in there too along with the other updates. So don’t worry about this change making its way over the U.S., if that’s where you’re from. The bishops here have bigger fish to fry than worrying about something like this.
 
Looking at the changes that have occurred in the past 20 years or so, and especially during the past 50 years, both in the US, and globally, it seems that things we could least contemplate occurring are not only quite common, but are guaranteed by law.

Prayer can be effective in determining the outcome of an event. No matter how cockamamie an idea sounds, if you think it’s detrimental, it’s a good idea to pray for protection from that idea being realized.
 
I’d worry about it primarily because I am a huge creature of habit, and I don’t like when prayers change, especially since it seems like some prayers have changed several times during my life already. In fact one of them (the “Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof…”) actually changed when I was a kid and then when I was a middle-aged adult, changed back to what it was originally.

However, given that the vast majority of my Our Fathers are said in private devotion, all I would have to worry about is the Our Father at Mass and maybe at group rosary time. Left to myself I could, and probably would, say it the same way I’d been saying it for decades. I’m sure God would still accept the old form of the prayer.
 
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“Sed” can be translated as but, yet, except or and. Rarely is there a single translation for common words because context plays such a great part in understanding.
 
One ends up learning the prayers and words when they change.
An example is Mass in a different language .
When we moved, at first, I followed the English Mass in Spanish ( in silence, to myself).
Then I started slowly learning by listening to the other people and repeating. Slowly, taking my time.
Finally, I was totally “ in shape” with the rest of the people in English.
When we moved back, we could reconnect very quickly.
It takes some time and that is it.
 
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The only change was in the Italian translation. That doesn’t directly effect how we pray in English.
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
I would like to know thoughts on this simply because the prayer is VERY old, to say the least, and is found in Matthew 6:13 to be saying “…and lead us not into temptation…”
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As others mentioned, the change is (apparently) in Italian only but doesn’t affect English.

To be quite fair, debate on Matthew 6:13 has been taking place for the better part of the 20th century, and many English-language Bibles have made changes to this verse’s translation. For the example the NRSV-CE translates it as “do not bring us to the time of trial”.

For reference, the Greek is: καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν (kai me eisenenkes hemas eis peirasmon). The issue focuses on translating εἰσενέγκῃς (eisenenkes) and πειρασμόν (peirasmon).

The issue is threefold: (1) the original Greek verse has a wide semantic range, some of which are rather vague, none of which are necessarily mutually exclusive; (2) when you translate from one language or another, sometimes you have to select one possible interpretation to the exclusion of others; (3) the English and Italian language translations have certain connotations that aren’t entirely consistent with Catholic teaching.

In respect to (3): the English ‘temptation’ and the Italian ‘tentazione’ often refer to sensual attractions (lust, greed, etc.) and especially things that can cause one to sin.

The Greek εἰσενέγκῃς is a form of εἰσφέρω (eisphero). It has the general meaning of “bring into” or “take into” or “lead”.

Most of the issues result in coupling the above word’s translation to the Greek πείρασμος (peirasmos) which has the general meaning of ‘test’ or ‘trial’. Compare its cognate verb πειράω (peirao) ‘I try’, ‘I attempt’ or ‘I dare’ (it’s actually the etymology of our word pirate, ‘daring people’ as they were).

Most theologians (Catholic and non-Catholic) understand v 13 to refer primarily (but not exclusively) to ὴ ὣρη τοῦ πειρασμοῦ (he hore tou peirasmou), ‘the hour of trial’, in Rev 3:10, ‘that is coming on the whole world to test (πειράσει) the inhabitants of the earth’. In particular, since the verse asks God to “not lead us”, it is often understood to be primarily a corporate prayer to God to protect the Church: “God save the Church”. It can be interpreted as “God keep me from personal sins”, but this is likely subsidiary.

(continued below)
 
It is unclear if ‘temptation’ in English had its current meanings when it was applied as a translation: Wycliffe’s Bible in the 14th century is an early example of its use in Matt 6:13. The etymology of ‘temptation’ is the Latin temptatio, which has the basic meaning as πειρασμός, an attempt or trial. The Latin Vulgate has tentatione in Matt 6:13 which is similar to temptatio.

Regardless of what historical translations meant originally, it now has a rather potent connotation of “God do not cause me to sin by offering me alluring things”. Hence why Bible translations for personal use and study have changed. Why hasn’t it affected the Lord’s Prayer in our liturgy? The Church tends to prioritise traditional expressions and continuity in our liturgy, and we instead rely on Catechesis and personal study to ensure correct interpretations.
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
Don’t know where to put this.
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Probably under, “what to do when 2+2 = 5” . . .

Now, read slowly, and repeat after me:

Pope.

Francis.

Did.

Not.

Change.

the Lord’s.

Prayer.

Saying that he did so is proceeding from as false a premise as 2+2=5.

The pope changed the translation of the prayer into a particular language.

Generally, as the language changes, and the source does not, this is a good thing, which prevents changing the prayer.

There can be pastoral reasons not to correct something, but these are the exceptions, not the rule. For example, in the Byzantine nee Ruthenian metropolis of Pittsburgh, when the Divine Liturgy was revised a few years ago, the bishops noted that “deliver us from evil” would be better translated into English as “deliver us from thee evil one”, but that the current language was a source of unity among English speaking Christians, and predated the so-called Reformation, and that it was more important to maintain that bit of unity.

Again, the pope did not change the prayer, but corrected language to restore the prayer in that language to its meaning.
anrmenchaca47 said:
because the Latin says
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Oh, and forget that part: the Latin is another translation. Worry about the greek and what (if anything) we can tell from it about the Aramaic which was translated to greek . .
Tis_Bearself said:
Eh, if worst comes to worst I’ll just learn how to pray it in the original Aramaic. Problem solved.
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Do you have a source for that? AFAIK, the closest we have is the greek to which the Aramaic was translated (but the Aramaic would truly catch my interest . . .)

also, I’ve moved this to Liturgy and Sacraments, which is probably the closest . . .
 
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This new translation is the result of more than a decade of work begun at the request of the Italian bishops under Pope St. John Paul II and continued under Pope Benedict.
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
“God himself does not lead anyone into temptation, because He is a kind and omnipotent being and this action would be in contradiction with his nature.” - Pope Francis.
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I’m not entirely sure this squares with Exodus 9:12, where God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
 
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poche said:
The only change was in the Italian translation. That doesn’t directly effect how we pray in English.
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And the French. I hadn’t known of the change when I attended Midnight Mass last Christmas. Came as a surprise because I don’t often have the chance to attend a French Mass. It’s now closer to the version we were praying up to the 70s.
 
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