Thoughts on punishment in purgatory

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I am trying to talk with a friend of mine who is very scared of purgatory. I have explained to her that purgatory is something that our souls crave. That it’s a suffering but it’s a happy suffering. The only part that makes it unbearable it that fact that we are not yet with God, yet we are slowly being prepared to see Him. Purgatory is where all wrongs turn right, we are healed inside and out. All of our love of self is turned to love for God. We are made perfect there. Is this the correct thing to say?

Also, how to I best respond to her arguements that purgatory is so awful?

She has told me,

*Purgatory is a VERY painful experience. It is where we recieve the punishment we deserve for sin.

“Purgatory is a great sense of loss and suffering of banishment, but eased by the knowledge of an end that will lead to Heaven.”
-Jesus, August 5, 1976

“There is a purgatory… My child - suffering great as in the abyss, but with the knowledge of a reprieve in time to come. It is a bleak longing of the spirit to look upon the Father. Know, My child, this longing of the heart in the fires is of great magnitude encompassing the being of the waiting soul.”
-Our Lady, March 29, 1975

Its obvious from all the Saints, Mary, and Jesus that purgatory is very painful and horrible. We must do our best to avoid it.*

She also says that the Church says not everyone goes to purgatory. If a person dies in a perfect state of grace, that is they’ve had all their sins forgiven and all temporal punishment is paid, go straight to Heaven. Someone who recieves a plenary indulgence before death goes straight to Heaven.

I just think her perception is in the wrong place here. Though I could be wrong. Any advice as to what I should say to ease her thoughts?
 
I tried to think of an analogy but I could only come up with this…which is not near the joy we will feel in the end.

Did you ever do something because you knew it was good for you, but not because you particularly wanted to do it? Like jogging or working out…you know it is good for you but you dread how you will feel the day after you start working out. So you go out jogging or working out with the knowledge you will pay tomorrow, we all do it! The next day, we are sore, hurt and our entire body begs for relief. We bathe, massage, or what ever to make ourselves feel better. You would think that would be the end of working out at that moment but soon we are participating again…because we know it will be good for us in the end. Again, we feel the pain, but it isn’t quite as bad as the last time…so we continue, until we acheive our goal, whether it is fitness, weight loss or whatever. This is like us holding on in purgatory because we know it will be worth it in the end. We hurt, we learn, it gets less and less painful each time, until we finally acheive our goal… The repentance and the payment of the temporal effects of our sin in full, the “fitness” of our souls and our entrance into the kingdom.
 
I’ve heard that Purgatory is the next best place to Heaven. I’ve heard that it is also the next worst place to Hell.

Where does that leave us? I’m betting that must mean it’s a lot like Earth! It can be pretty okay, or it can be terrible. Afterall, Earth can also be the next worst place to hell, and yet the next best place to heaven.

It’s probably basically like a disembodied extension of the earthly state (without the possibility of sin) to finish off unfinished bussiness. Depending on how much venial sin or temporal punishment you have left…it can be okay like earth, or tortuously painful like earth. Except purgatory can probably also be better than earth, and also worse than earth. The point is, like earth, it’s between Heaven and Hell, and can be different for different people, and can probably fluctuate. For some people on earth and in purgatory things are pretty great (though imperfect)…for others, things are horrible. But at least in purgatory heaven is assured (which can also make the waiting better or worse depending on your perspective)
 
Compare it to being born. When you’re born, you’re scared, you resist the birth, etc. But the result is something you’d never give up. The same with purgatory. A negative experience, probably far more brief than people think, and then BOOM, eternity in Heaven.
 
Why don’t you try reading a speech John Paul 2 gave about Purgatory? Maybe you’ll find a comforting tidbit for her. Here it is. It is one of his Wednesday audiences.
 
It sounds like you’ve done a good job already answering her concern about purgatory. I’m curious about where the quotes of Jesus and Mary came from? I noticed they’re both from the mid-70s. Were these from approved apparitions or mystics whose visions/locutions were declared authentic by the Church? The reason I ask is that when I was first checking out the Catholic faith several years ago, I found a book in the public library on Marian apparitions. Unbeknownst to me, some of the apparitions described in the book were never approved by the Church, and some of the messages in them gave me the willies. I found out later they were not approved. None of the messages from the approved apparitions ever gave me the creepy feeling the unapproved ones did, even though they frequently mentioned chastisement, God’s wrath, etc. I think when something comes from Satan, it instills fear and doesn’t bring peace or deepen one’s confidence in God’s mercy. I wonder if your friend has been reading messages that aren’t really from God?

I would direct your friend to Hebrews 12:5-11. It isn’t speaking directly of purgatory, but addressing suffering in earthly life, but the principle remains the same – God lets us experience suffering for our own good – for us to grow in holiness.

Isaiah 6:1-7 describes the experience of the prophet Isaiah when he beholds God in His glory and majesty in a vision. Isaiah’s response? “Woe to me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips. …” Isaiah became painfully conscious of his own sinfulness in the holy presence of our Lord. I imagine that will be much of our own suffering when we see our own sinfulness that we’ve been blind to or rationalized in light of God’s awesome holiness.

It’s not the same suffering as those in hell. They suffer complete loss of God and all goodness. We will have hope and consolation in purgatory, not just suffering.

I’m a big fan of Elisabeth Elliot, and in one of her talks she mentioned how people would say to her (she lost two husbands --one, Jim Elliott, died a martyr and the other died of cancer) “How can you go through this?” Elisabeth commented that her friends were imagining her circumstances without the grace of God, so her situation seemed horrible to her friends. I have experienced this myself in my life – going through very difficult times and experiencing sorrow while at the same time experiencing comfort and even joy in the midst of it. Perhaps it would be good for your friend to go to God honestly in prayer with her fear of purgatory and try to imagine it with His love and grace surrounding her.

There is a passage from St. Faustina’s diary*, Divine Mercy in My Soul*, that I have memorized because it helps me keep a good perspective on suffering:

“Oh, if only the suffering soul knew how much God loves it, it would die of joy and excess of happiness! Some day we will know the meaning of our suffering, but then we will no longer be able to suffer. The present moment is ours.”
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Compare it to being born. When you’re born, you’re scared, you resist the birth, etc. But the result is something you’d never give up. The same with purgatory. A negative experience, probably far more brief than people think, and then BOOM, eternity in Heaven.
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Your friend could also imagine the reverse, that purgatory is like giving birth. While I have not yet had children 😦 I still think I can speak about this.
During labor and delivery, the woman goes through a tremendous amount of pain and physical exersion. However, after she gives birth and holds her baby, she forgets her suffering and rejoyces in the birth of her child. Since you said that your friend is a woman, she may have thought about having children, or perhaps have had children herself. Did she regret having the children because they caused her physical suffering? I doubt it.
Also, find out where the quotes came from, and if these visions have been approved by the Catholic Church. Apparitions can be good, but they are not public revelation, and no Catholic is bound to believe in them.
 
I will be very happy if I find myself in Purgatory because it means I’ve been saved so no matter how long I spend there I know that I will definitely be going to Heaven at some stage and never to Hell.
 
**FROM THE GREAT SAINTS **
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“No tongue can express, no mind can understand, how dreadful is Purgatory…And be assured that the souls have to pay what they owe even to the last farthing. This is God’s decree to satisfy the demands of justice” -St. Catherine of Genoa.
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“Purgatory fire will be more intolerable than all the torments that can be felt or conceived in this life” - Venerable Bede.
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“A person may say, I am not much concerned how long I remain in Purgatory, provided 1 may come to eternal life. Let no one reason thus. Purgatory fire will more dreadful than whatever torment can be seen, imagined or endured in this world.” - St. Caesarius of Arles.
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'The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.
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"My God, what soul would be sufficiently just to enter heaven without passing through the avenging flames’ - St. Teresa of Avila.
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‘If we were thoroughly convinced of the torments of Purgatory, could we then so easily forget our parents… if God would permit them to show themselves we would we would see them cast themselves down at our feet “My children”, they would cry out, "have mercy on us! Oh, do not forsake us!’. - St. John Vianney.
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You can read up more on Pugatory HERE
 
Thank you everyone so much for your help with this! You are all amazing. May God bless and hold you all!
 
Although, perhaps this is the wrong way to think about it but Purgatory is the perfect justice system. If person A lived a moral life including much sacrifice and denying him or herself some of the pleasures of this earth, then he or she might possibly get let right into Heaven after his or her death. If person B lived a moral life lived a moral life but not quite to the extent of person A. Maybe this person was a little greedy and didn’t share his or her wealth as much as he or she could have or maybe they just weren’t quite as helpful or servent like a person as person A. Well then, would it be just for both person A and person B to at the same time be allowed right into Heaven? Or would it be more just for there to be a Purgatory where person A gets the quick entrance into Heaven that he or she has earned while person B still will eventually be with God in Heaven, but has to answer for a few of his or her actions in his or her lifetime first and rightfully accepts God’s justice and his or her time in Purgatory with the knowledge that Heaven is awaiting. Likewise, persons C and D might be a believer but then they lived very immoral lives and only in their last few years reformed their lives and repented. God is overjoyed at this and wants them to one day be in Heaven. However, they must first answer for all those years on Earth when they lived sinful lives. It would not be fair for them to get right into Heaven along with persons A and B.

The point. Person A gets rewarded for living a saintly life. Person B still gets rewarded by having a lesser sentence than persons C and D and persons C and D are just lucky and grateful to be forgiven and allowed to one day be in Heaven.
 
At the end of the day is all about RELATIONSHIP.

I believe that at purgatory God’s love is both something we desperately crave for and desperately want to get away from. God’s revealed loved for us (if in sin) is something that we will feel at odds about. We would have not allowed our selves the openess required to interact with it. God cannot say to us …oh thats ok have 99% of my love the other 1% does not matter…that will contradict God’s love…God seeks all of himself to indwell in us in heaven (well also on earth but…u know). Also the concept of relinquishing that 1% would be a frightful thing as ultimately what that sin represents is nothing less than our arrogance of wanting to follow our own will and to be the benefactor of our actions rather than relinquising ourselves completely to God and the desire to glorify his name.

God would have been able in our life time, through our participation, to give us sufficient grace to acknowledge (this is more than just intellectual knowledge) the neccessity and desire for God.

However the present sin we would have would prohibit God to indwell wholly and prohibit the soul from desiring for God to indwell wholly. Therefore there would be suffering in the separation from God’s love and suffering in the relinquishing of ourselves to his love.

Well that is what I reckon

Alex
 
thistle said:
I will be very happy if I find myself in Purgatory because it means I’ve been saved so no matter how long I spend there I know that I will definitely be going to Heaven at some stage and never to Hell.
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Amen.
 
You can look at Purgatory like this too…

You know how a drug addict goes through withdrawal and pain and agony when being rehabilitated? Then they are declared ‘clean’. I’ve heard former drug addicts saying they’ve been clean for x amount of months or years…
Purgatory is like that. On our way to Heaven we will undergo a painful withdrawal and ‘cleansing’ of our worldly attachments and the sin nature in us that has made life tough to live. That’s all.
It’s a process the soul goes through on it’s way to the Throne Room.
 
Your friend is right to fear purgatory, it is not only a cleansing to see God in Heaven but it is PUNISHMENT for already commited sins. It is painful and can last millenia. There are some early Church writings on purgatory that will have anyone afraid of it. All Catholics should fear purgatory and do what’s needed to shorten your stay there, or avoid it altogether.
 
Saint_Michael said:
Your friend is right to fear purgatory, it is not only a cleansing to see God in Heaven but it is PUNISHMENT for already commited sins. It is painful and can last millenia. There are some early Church writings on purgatory that will have anyone afraid of it. All Catholics should fear purgatory and do what’s needed to shorten your stay there, or avoid it altogether.
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In another thread, it was mentioned that purgatory is not a temporal experience, so how could it last of a millenia if that is true?
 
ribozyme said:
In another thread, it was mentioned that purgatory is not a temporal experience, so how could it last of a millenia if that is true?
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That is new age nonsense IMO, if Purgatory isn’t a “literal time” then the Church offering indulgences is a terribly inaccurate teaching. Indulgences lessen time in purgatory, if there is no time there, why do I need an indulgence?
 
Saint_Michael said:
That is new age nonsense IMO, if Purgatory isn’t a “literal time” then the Church offering indulgences is a terribly inaccurate teaching. Indulgences lessen time in purgatory, if there is no time there, why do I need an indulgence?
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So why isn’t it an inaccurate teaching then?
 
ribozyme said:
So why isn’t it an inaccurate teaching then?
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Because there is time for temporal punishment in purgatory. It stands to reason the more sinful and attached to sin one is, the longer it will take to purify and punish them for sins already commited. If there’s no time there, then indulgences are a pointless teaching IMO.
 
Saint_Michael said:
Because there is time for temporal punishment in purgatory. It stands to reason the more sinful and attached to sin one is, the longer it will take to purify and punish them for sins already commited. If there’s no time there, then indulgences are a pointless teaching IMO.
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Nope, I wasn’t asking that at all. I was asking what makes the teachings of indulgences valid. I am not familiar with Catholicism (as I am interested in other things e.g. biochemistry, evolution, ect.) but I don’t think indulgences are offered by the Church anymore, and it seems (to me anyway) a scheme to buy people into heaven (so I agree with Luther on this). But I am an agnostic who is somewhat curious regarding that Catholic Church’s postition on purgatory.
 
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