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ccmcmg
Guest
Just so you know, even if applause does break out, whether led from the altar or otherwise, I can assure you that my two hands, as well as my husband’s, do not applaud.
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eightydeuce82
Guest
Praise the LORD! Mine either this has been happening increasingly at my parish and it makes me want to run away! Like I literally get a fight or flight response. Still trying to figure out how to get our music directory (a Lutheran) to stop with the sneaky inserts of protestant and secular hymns/music. Which almost always brings some form of applause by a few who don’t realize its inappropriate.
I wonder if those at the foot of the Cross were clapping and rejoicing during that Holy Sacrifice?
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Joannm
Guest
I don’t particularly like patriotic songs at Mass, but we sang God Bless America and by gosh I think every single person in the church sang. We don’t hear everyone singing too often, or at all, even at Christmas.
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ThyKingdomCome
Guest
I don’t like it. I understand that technically it is not forbidden, because technically, Mass is over. But in practical terms, my focus on the Mass does not end until after the last song is sung, the priest has walked down the aisle, and I have knelt in the pew and prayed the St. Michael prayer etc. I know that none of this is required either, but singing a song that really doesn’t fit with the liturgy is a major distraction from this small devotion that makes a huge difference in my attitude after Mass. I certainly can’t speak for the interior attitude of other people, but I can definitely say that a secular song will not encourage the reverence and focus on Christ that we ought to be trying to bring back to the times we are in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, even after Mass is over.
What is sad is that there is no public singing outside of churches anymore, so people are so hungry to have these songs sung, that they welcome it at Mass. In my adulthood, I have only had the chance to sing patriotic songs at Mass, and I enjoy singing them. So I don’t want church choirs to stop singing the songs, but I don’t want them to sing them in place of the religious hymns. Maybe after the recessional. Or out in the parking lot, after, after. Or some other way. But don’t interfere with the Mass.
In particular, this past weekend, I was really bothered, because Pentecost is supposed to be one of the largest feasts in the liturgical year. Can you imagine singing a patriotic song as the last hymn at the Easter Vigil, or on Christmas? Of course not, because we respect those holidays as being very important and special. We need to bring that reverence back to Pentecost. A large part of it is making the entire liturgy more festive, and celebrating the holiday as a parish another way (like with a party, or a project or activity of some sort). So it’s not all Memorial Day’s fault. But Memorial Day coming tomorrow is not a good enough reason to eliminate a recessional hymn that is related to the birthday of the Church.
What is sad is that there is no public singing outside of churches anymore, so people are so hungry to have these songs sung, that they welcome it at Mass. In my adulthood, I have only had the chance to sing patriotic songs at Mass, and I enjoy singing them. So I don’t want church choirs to stop singing the songs, but I don’t want them to sing them in place of the religious hymns. Maybe after the recessional. Or out in the parking lot, after, after. Or some other way. But don’t interfere with the Mass.
In particular, this past weekend, I was really bothered, because Pentecost is supposed to be one of the largest feasts in the liturgical year. Can you imagine singing a patriotic song as the last hymn at the Easter Vigil, or on Christmas? Of course not, because we respect those holidays as being very important and special. We need to bring that reverence back to Pentecost. A large part of it is making the entire liturgy more festive, and celebrating the holiday as a parish another way (like with a party, or a project or activity of some sort). So it’s not all Memorial Day’s fault. But Memorial Day coming tomorrow is not a good enough reason to eliminate a recessional hymn that is related to the birthday of the Church.
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JimmyG88
Guest
There isn’t a place for this at all. In the UK a popular hymn (sung if I remember at Diana’s funeral) ‘I vow to thee my country’ was critiqued for just being a song of praise to the country rather than God. The universality of our church is diminished by this. We have had situations where countries are at war. I wouldn’t like to be a foreign catholic at mass listening to a nationalist song from an opposing country. The mass is not the place for divisions to be created
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JimmyG88
Guest
The applause thing is part and parcel of the Southern European Mass especially funerals. It’s a bit like them shouting ‘Eviva Papa’. At the Pope. The applause at a funeral is the same thing really. Pope Benedict was from a far stricter Germanic Tradition. But the Bavarians would fill their Churches with Christmas Trees which would send an English or an Irish priest in apoplexy (years ago anyway) so it’s a local thing really. The problem seems to me that some people in the U.S. Have seen this Italian cousin and have adopted it and to be honest it’s not cousin art for them so it grates
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retire_early
Guest
I missed out on the patriotic song last Sunday. We had the children’s choir at the vigil mass and they sang in Latin. They were excellent. If I wasn’t so sleepy in the morning lately, I would’ve gone on Sunday, hoping to hear / sing “Come, Holy Ghost”:
youtube.com/watch?v=-DtMzsXQtM4
…and I wish flowers on hats, pearls and gloves would come back into fashion.
youtube.com/watch?v=-DtMzsXQtM4
…and I wish flowers on hats, pearls and gloves would come back into fashion.
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Brendan
Guest
I would differ, the song (actually a poem that was later set to music) was written by Katherine Bates, a noted Congregationalist and was first published in a Congregationalist newsletter.
Those are the Protestant direct descendants of the Mayflower Pilgrims (and Oliver Cromwell) and have more of a Puritian\Calvinist bent.
The Congregationists of the 1890’s were hardly models of Enlightenment thought.
But yes, they are Christian by the Catholic definition, and not ‘vaguely deist’. In fact, the very line "God Shed His Grace on Thee’ is contrary to Enlightenment Deism, which viewed God as a clockwork mechanic who set the world in motion, and then had nothing more to do with it. The very concept of Grace is contrary to the Deistic worldview.
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Casilda
Guest
I did not like the patriotic song at our Pentacost mass, either. I did not sing. I did think I was at the ballpark and it just threw me into a daze, wondering if I was hearing what I was hearing and where I really was. I got up early and didn’t have my coffee. It was most inappropriate.
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Kal2012
Guest
Most parishes I’ve been to will do patriotic songs for Memorial Day or the 4th of July weekend. One did “scary music” for Halloween.
I was kind of surprised when the parish I went to on Sunday didn’t end w/a patriotic song. However, the priest made a big deal out of having a special Memorial Day mass.
As an American Catholic, I like that the church acknowledges cultural and religious holidays.
Most people don’t go to daily mass, but they’ll attend Sunday Mass - which is probably why they played the music.
You can’t please everyone, I guess.
I was kind of surprised when the parish I went to on Sunday didn’t end w/a patriotic song. However, the priest made a big deal out of having a special Memorial Day mass.
As an American Catholic, I like that the church acknowledges cultural and religious holidays.
Most people don’t go to daily mass, but they’ll attend Sunday Mass - which is probably why they played the music.
You can’t please everyone, I guess.
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ccmcmg
Guest
My main issue with it this past Sunday was that it was Pentecost, one of the highest holy days of the year, and that should supercede minor holidays, especially secular ones.
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Ignatius
Guest
Hmmm, here are the words:
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!
O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife.
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!
I see a plea for God to “crown thy good with brotherhood”, “mend our every flaw”, “Love mercy more than life”, and make all our gain Divine.
Where do you those negatives you said were in there?
We sang “God Bless America, Land that I Love, Stand beside her and guide her, through the night with the light from above”.
I am very much for it. America needs divine guidance more than ever before.
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babochka
Guest
I enjoy hearing America the Beautiful and think it is fine for Mass. I see the song as a prayer for our country and believe that is what it is intended to be. There is nothing in it that it contrary to the Catholic faith. I do think it was inappropriate to sing the song on a major feast such as Pentecost.
I went to Divine Liturgy on Memorial Day. After the liturgy we prayed a panachida, the Byzantine prayer service for the dead, for those who have died in war. We don’t have a recessional hymn in the Byzantine rite, but after the panachida, as we were procession to the front to venerate the hand cross, our cantor began to sing “America the Beautiful”. The few of us who were there joined in and I thought it was entirely appropriate for the occasion.
I went to Divine Liturgy on Memorial Day. After the liturgy we prayed a panachida, the Byzantine prayer service for the dead, for those who have died in war. We don’t have a recessional hymn in the Byzantine rite, but after the panachida, as we were procession to the front to venerate the hand cross, our cantor began to sing “America the Beautiful”. The few of us who were there joined in and I thought it was entirely appropriate for the occasion.
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ccmcmg
Guest
**
4th of July, Labor Day, sure. But. Not. On. Pentecost.
Would we sing it on Christmas? Easter?
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4th of July, Labor Day, sure. But. Not. On. Pentecost.
Would we sing it on Christmas? Easter?
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babochka
Guest
Exactly. Pentecost is a major feast, but many seem to have completely lost touch with that fact. We should be celebrating the coming of the Holy Spirit in the same way that we celebrate the birth and resurrection of our Lord.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I meant a rather broader small “d” meaning of the word “deist,” but your objection is fair enough. Having said that, I don’t think America the Beautiful is a particularly good reflection of the catholicity of the Roman Catholic Church. The sweet sentiment of “alabaster cities” that are “undimmed by human tears” belies the reality of life on earth prior to the Second Coming. It has lots of good themes in it, do not get me wrong, I cannot think of any anthems to our nation that are better on the whole, but I’d rather hear it at the ballpark (where a far broader audience is assumed) or in connection with a fireworks show than in connection with the Mass. At Mass, we see a bigger picture…do you see what I am getting at?
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Brendan
Guest
Yep, I see, and agree.I will make one comment on the alabaster cities and tears. Remember that these lyrics were first published as a poem. That is a poetic allusion to the woman with the alabaster jar, who washed the feet of Christ ( gleam) , and the washing was done with her tears of Repentance.
The phrase ‘undimmed by human tears’ is not a statement that tears are lacking, but that the tears do not dim.
So when we see those words: alabaster, gleaming (as in free of dust and dirt) and tears together, we should ask ‘what is Bates’ trying to state here, are we familiar with these themes elsewhere. She cannot be claiming that US cities have any significant quantities of alabaster in their construction, or that US residents experience no sorrow.
But as someone familiar with the Bible, those words DO bring about recollections of events
Having those themes in mind (alabaster, gleaming, tears) in the same line are a way of bringing to mind that Bible story. And while themes of stark repentance come easily to the Puritan mind, it is not unknown to the Catholic mindset either.
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Upbeat_Dad
Guest
I felt uneasy about it too. It’s hard to sing about America the Beautiful, when we murder 3,000 babies in the womb each day, when we are constantly at war, when we have a national debt poised to surpass what we can produce to ever pay it down, when Caesar Obama can order the CIA to kill citizens without trial, without even being charged with a crime, and when we trash marriage and the family. We want God to “shed his grace” on that?
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exnihilo
Guest
I don’t like it either, but America the Beautiful is not the worst song in the world. At least it wasn’t the Battle Hymn of the Republic which isn’t religious though using religious imagery improperly. When a Protestant my church would line the walkway around secular holidays with US flags. That was disturbing symbolism to me but well received by most.
This is the problem. People will all join in for secular songs. That is backwards. When I was a Protestant my church was noisy before the service. People would talk to each other in a loud voice. Around the patriotic holidays they would sometimes play the Star Spangled Banner before the service. Everyone would stand up and be quiet for the duration. It would appear the US government deserves more honor and devotion than God. That isn’t right. Not to derail the thread but it is like how most people would not go to a wedding, even outside of a church, dressed like some do to go to Mass. God is most deserving of our efforts, not the US government, our society or our culture.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
There seem to be competing complaints afoot here. One is that a patriotic song was ‘programmed’ for Pentecost. Fair enough, the liturgical day - especially the third greatest feast of the year - should have trumped the civil holiday on that particular Sunday.
But the other complaint is with patriotic songs at Mass in general, and here we need to be more careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. Worries about over-particularizing the Mass such that it loses focus or becomes the perceived property of a single nation as opposed to worldwide Church are healthy concerns. But the flipside is not just that patriotism is a virtue (such that prayer for one’s country - which any patriotic “hymns” ought to be - is a viable candidate for prayer during Mass). It is that there is an established tradition of praying for the sovereign at the end of Mass - in England and Wales, at least before the liturgical reform, it was customary to recite prayers for the sovereign at the end of the church’s (parish, oratory, etc.) principle Mass, and while of only customary obligation it was done according to a text provided in the nation’s official Ritus Servandus.
We don’t pray for victory, but for peace. We don’t pray for the success of a ruler’s chosen political aims, but for his/her success according to God’s eternal aims. We even pray for evil, inimical rulers, because we ought to love them and their true benefit, in conversion to the good, overflows to us as well; if Tertullian and his compatriots could pray for persecuting emperors, we can pray for our governments, too.
But the other complaint is with patriotic songs at Mass in general, and here we need to be more careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. Worries about over-particularizing the Mass such that it loses focus or becomes the perceived property of a single nation as opposed to worldwide Church are healthy concerns. But the flipside is not just that patriotism is a virtue (such that prayer for one’s country - which any patriotic “hymns” ought to be - is a viable candidate for prayer during Mass). It is that there is an established tradition of praying for the sovereign at the end of Mass - in England and Wales, at least before the liturgical reform, it was customary to recite prayers for the sovereign at the end of the church’s (parish, oratory, etc.) principle Mass, and while of only customary obligation it was done according to a text provided in the nation’s official Ritus Servandus.
We don’t pray for victory, but for peace. We don’t pray for the success of a ruler’s chosen political aims, but for his/her success according to God’s eternal aims. We even pray for evil, inimical rulers, because we ought to love them and their true benefit, in conversion to the good, overflows to us as well; if Tertullian and his compatriots could pray for persecuting emperors, we can pray for our governments, too.
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