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VietCatholic83
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I am curious as to how Traditional Catholics feel about the restoration of the Permanant Diaconate. Thanks and God bless 
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Let’s not forget that Eastern Catholics are traditional, too, and in the Eastern Churches permanent deacons have always existed.
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
For most traditional Catholics the stumbling block is the decision to allow deacons to be married. This seems to be an attack on celibacy.I am curious as to how Traditional Catholics feel about the restoration of the Permanant Diaconate. Thanks and God bless
Celibacy is not inherent to the priesthood, and a deacon is not a priest, but in our present promiscuous culture, where it is taught that it is necessary to have a “relationship” to be a fulfilled human being, it is a very powerful symbol. Not as powerful as monasticism, however, to which poverty and celibacy are inherent.
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puzzleannie
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deacons are not allowed to marry
married men may be ordained as deacons
since the practice is ancient and preserved in Eastern Christianity I cannot see a basis for an objection on that basis. Deacons are not priests, so it is not an attack on celibacy.
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Servulus
Guest
For some others, the difficulties include:
- Selection Criteria - In too many places in too many cases, the candidates were selected (especially in the early days of the ministry’s re-establishment) based on their prominent participation in parish activities (Head Usher, President of the Men’s Club, etc.) or some other human consideration rather than on some vocation discernment process.
- Formation - In some dioceses, the training and formation of candidates appears woefully lacking. There are active deacons whose instruction in Scripture and Church History is clearly inadequate, whose formation in moral theology is questionable, and whose homiletic and public speaking skills are nowhere in evidence.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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As a permanent deacon, married with 5 children and 13 grand-children, I can only say that I love my vocation and thank God for the opportunity to be of service to Him by serving his people. I have been a deacon for 16 years. While we are clergy, we live married lives as normal Catholic husbands and are called to be examples of what married families should be. I am not so naive as to say that we all succeed, as we are human just as everyone else. We say the divine office daily, (morning and evening prayers) and are called to a life of prayer. My wife and I pray daily and would encourage everyone to do so. My biggest privileges were to witness the weddings of my children and to baptize my grand-children. Whenever we see someone come back to the church because of God using us, it is profoundly humbling. I know that this vocation is not for all men, but would encourage them to consider how to best serve God in their lives. Our wives had to give permission for us to be ordained and we (deacons) vow that if we become widowers, we will not remarry. We do so, with a solemn trust that God will not give us anything that, with his grace, we cannot endure. After these 16 years, I can only look back and wonder why God has chosen one so unworthy to give such great blessings. Please pray for us.
God Bless
Deacon Ed B
God Bless
Deacon Ed B
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Actually, poverty and chastity are inherent in religious life.
Many people confuse the Vow of Chastity with celibacy. It is much more than that.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Married priests are also not an attack on celibacy. The Eastern Catholic Churches have also preserved the tradition of a married secular clergy.
Celibacy for the secular clergy is a discipline and loosening the requirements on it is not an attack on anything.
It just shows were some people in the “traditional” camp chose to draw the line as to what they think traditional is and is not.
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
I might think it is a bad idea to have milk monitors at school.
That isn’t the same thing at all as saying that Mary is a bad girl because she put up her hand when Mrs Bloggs asked for volunteers for milk monitor. Nor that there are no positive aspects to Mary’s milk monitor service.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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Malcolm,
You are in my prayers.
Deacon Ed B
You are in my prayers.
Deacon Ed B
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francesco920
Guest
I think that the permanent diaconate is a great thing, and I am happy that it was restored. It is certainly traditional.
However…
I do not like the fact that the subdiaconate and the minor orders were abolished. I don’t see why this was necessary.
However…
I do not like the fact that the subdiaconate and the minor orders were abolished. I don’t see why this was necessary.
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dixieagle
Guest
I just returned from Mass and noticed this thread. The pastor of the church where we went today is a brilliant homilist and good friend of ours, so we occasionally attend, though it is not our home parish. We were, therefore, disappointed to see one of the two permanent deacons get up to give today’s homily, as we love listening to Father. However, Deacon S. was well prepared, well spoken, and gave a truly wonderful, pertinent and practical homily on today’s readings - definitely at least on a par with homilies we’ve heard from many priests locally, and an edifying experience for us.
I know how hard deacons work here, and the time they put in away from family. After today, we also have a new appreciation. (Rarely have we heard a deacon preach, as they are entitled to do, as pastors here rarely give them the opportunity.) Good job, Deacon S., and thanks to all who serve God and His people in this way.:clapping:
I know how hard deacons work here, and the time they put in away from family. After today, we also have a new appreciation. (Rarely have we heard a deacon preach, as they are entitled to do, as pastors here rarely give them the opportunity.) Good job, Deacon S., and thanks to all who serve God and His people in this way.:clapping:
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m134e5
Guest
On one hand, the diaconate is a valid step of Holy Orders. Some people may be called to part of it, but not to all of it.
On the other hand, I often wonder if the permanent diaconate diminishes the value of the priesthood in the eyes of the laity. We need priests- badly. In some places, 10 years from now will be too late. Deacons will not help those places much. We need priests. The permanent diaconate is no substitute for the priesthood, and I think it is often seen as such. Men who feel called to some sort of ministry don’t have to make a choice- they can get married and be a deacon, rather than make a sacrifice and choose between marriage and the priesthood. I think, in that sense, the permanent diaconate diminishes the concept of sacrifice.
On the other hand, I often wonder if the permanent diaconate diminishes the value of the priesthood in the eyes of the laity. We need priests- badly. In some places, 10 years from now will be too late. Deacons will not help those places much. We need priests. The permanent diaconate is no substitute for the priesthood, and I think it is often seen as such. Men who feel called to some sort of ministry don’t have to make a choice- they can get married and be a deacon, rather than make a sacrifice and choose between marriage and the priesthood. I think, in that sense, the permanent diaconate diminishes the concept of sacrifice.
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Cat
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God bless you! What a wonderful testimony!. Thank you for all your service to the Church and to God.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Personally I say it’s time we drop the Celibacy requirement for Priests and just leave it at the Bishop level and above. Seriously it’s a discipline not a doctrine.
Personally I am convinced God is now calling people to both the Married life AND the Priesthood.
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VietCatholic83
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Deacon Ed, thank you for your answer to God’s call in your life, as a Deacon, a husband and father. I am confident that your witness has and will continue to touch the lives of many. I thought of this question because my archbishop just ordained 21 men to the Diaconate on Saturday (11/17) including a man from my parish. You and your brother Deacons are in my prayers. May the Holy Spirit continue to fill your hearts with zeal and love for Lord. And may you be fearless witnesses to the Gospel. PAX
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Aramis
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To answer the “why” of the elimination of the Roman Church’s subdeaconate:
The Deaconate has a clear scriptural origin (in Acts), as does the Episcopacy (Bishops). Priests are mentioned by various terms in the epistles. Thus there is a biblical basis for these three orders of cleric.
Subdeacons, however, have no direct biblical basis. That all apostolic churches ordained them by the 6th century is known, but the actual origin isn’t. (We know that they existed in the Byzantine tradition by the 4th century, since St Basil assigned them roles in the Liturgy…)
So, in the interests of clarity, the Roman church decided to drop the order of subdeaconate from use to prevent the question of whether they are in fact posessed of the sacrament of Holy Orders. Some Byzantine churches followed suit, while others did not, and still have subdeacons, sometimes transitional, sometimes permanent.
The Deaconate has a clear scriptural origin (in Acts), as does the Episcopacy (Bishops). Priests are mentioned by various terms in the epistles. Thus there is a biblical basis for these three orders of cleric.
Subdeacons, however, have no direct biblical basis. That all apostolic churches ordained them by the 6th century is known, but the actual origin isn’t. (We know that they existed in the Byzantine tradition by the 4th century, since St Basil assigned them roles in the Liturgy…)
So, in the interests of clarity, the Roman church decided to drop the order of subdeaconate from use to prevent the question of whether they are in fact posessed of the sacrament of Holy Orders. Some Byzantine churches followed suit, while others did not, and still have subdeacons, sometimes transitional, sometimes permanent.
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Daprato
Guest
I agree.
We have a guy in our parish who is terribly arrogant, ignorant and not all that honest. As an adult altar server he told everyone for years that he was a deacon – including the local paper, military honor guards, etc. He would act as a “pseudo deacon” during Masses, having buffaloed a string of pastors. It was awful. He was a lay chaplain at the local branch of our state prison, but was barred after he broke their rules.
Then one day a diaconate formation opened-up in our diocese. This man was going to make it official by golly! Given the politics it was amazing but he was rejected for the formation. I was stunned in the most positive way! The Holy Spirit was working. I cannot express how stunned I was. Now we were going to have REAL deacons and this man was out. Awesome.
Within two weeks he was accepted… I could go on and on about how he got in, but I won’t. I don’t ever want to hear again that man cannot reject and/or misrepresent the power of the Holy Spirit. Today he is a deacon and he’s more loathsome than ever.
No, I don’t think our new bishop and pastor would allow him into the formation today. Yes I strongly believe that stricter guidelines are necessary – maybe even national ones and they need to be adhered to, no matter what the politics.
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FAB
Guest
I cannot speak to other Diocese, but I do know that for mine it is not a popularity contest. By the time the group that I am part of is ordained, we will spent seven years of dicernment and formation. Although there are many called, the procecess has taken a group of over 200 to less than 50 for the years of formal formation. We went through at least three interviews including a phycological test. Our wives were also intervered. The classes are college classes given through the local Catholic University in which most of our wives take with us. The studies cover all aspects of the church, Theology, History, Liturgy, Bibical studies, Homoletics, morallity, just to a few. The process for formation is spelled out in documents concerning the Diaconate (sorry I don’t remember the name) available on the US Bishop’s web site.
By no means am I complaning. This is a wonderful experinence both personally and spiritully.
Peace,
FAB
“Your word I have treasured in my heart…”
Psalms 119:11
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Daprato
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Yeah and in this man’s case they obviously tried to at the beginning and then caved-in with a HORRIBLE result.
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