THoughts on the Story of Eden

[Valke2]

Do you believe that people are instinctively repelled by serpents today because the prototypical serpent in Eden spoke to Eve and misled both her and her husband?

I believe that part of the reason the serpent appears in the Eden story is to explain why we are repulsed by snakes.

It is clear in Genesis that the curse imposed on the serpent was NOT a result of its existence in the garden with Adam and Eve or its contact with them, but of its achievement in deceiving first humans and making them disobey a divine commandment.

Yes. The story makes that clear. However, the purpose, or one purpose, of the story may be to explain why we hate snakes.

God used Adam to CREATE Eve vs the serpent used Eve to DECEIVE Adam.

There really is nothing in the story that supports the belief that Eve somehow deceived Adam. In fact, it is likely that Adam was with Eve when the serpent spoke with her, because the serpent address “Eve” in the plural, which would be how it would speak to more than one person.

The serpent deliberately reversed the chain of CREATION while causing humans to fall:

God-Adam-Eve (chain of creation) vs Serpent-Eve-Adam (chain of disobedience reaching God)

Interesting.

 

[AgnosTheist]

In Judaism, what was God’s original plan for humanity? Did the events in Genesis happen according to plan, or did Eve’s choice ruin the original plan?

In Christianity, it was against the plan. And throughout history God was working to correct it.

 

[Valke2]

In Judaism, what was God’s original plan for humanity? Did the events in Genesis happen according to plan, or did Eve’s choice ruin the original plan?

In Christianity, it was against the plan. And throughout history God was working to correct it.

There’s a lot of commentary that supports it all being part of God’s plan. But it is hard to square this with the fact that God voices his regret about man prior to the Flood. And since it is the events of Eden that set the stage for the Flood, I think that we have to conclude that Adam and Eve acted against God’s will.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I think that we have to conclude that Adam and Eve acted against God’s will.

Thanks. Do you have any idea what was God’s plan for the couple had they not eaten the fruit?

How literal is the story of Adam & Eve?

 

[MementoMori3283]

Thanks. Do you have any idea what was God’s plan for the couple had they not eaten the fruit?

Predestination? God knew what they would do. God does not lie. God does not deceive. The question, “where are you?”, is rhetorical in nature. I would like to ponder what would have been had Adam not joined Eve in her sin. Would his act have been restorative, as in Christ’s?

How literal is the story of Adam & Eve?

I would like to believe it is both literal and figurative. The writers used different literary styles that provoke thought and represent the splendor and glory of God and His creation.

 

[Angelos]

I believe that part of the reason the serpent appears in the Eden story is to explain why we are repulsed by snakes.

This has to do with figurative language. I also agree that the tempter in Genesis was depicted as serpent because:

1) The setting of the story was the natural habitat of the serpent.
2) The serpent was believed by humans to be crafty a animal.
**3) **The serpent could reach (climb) trees to hide and hunt, which was relevant to both his craftiness and trick through the existence of a tree in the story.
4) The serpent crawls, which was associated with the curse imposed on him by God in the story.

However, the purpose, or one purpose, of the story may be to explain why we hate snakes.

The story does not only explain the reasons underlying men’s aversion to serpents. Actually, the serpent in Eden hates Adam and Eve before Adam and Eve start hating the serpent as a consequence of their fall.

More to the point, God is implied to consider the serpent evil even before the fall because He never questions the serpent or gives it the right to defend itself after its deceptive act. God also sides with Adam and Eve against the serpent. The serpent acts as the rival of God when it persuades Eve to prefer its advice to God’s commandment. In short, the serpent’s act in the garden is an open defiance and insurrection - through Adam and Eve - against God’s dominion.

There really is nothing in the story that supports the belief that Eve somehow deceived Adam. In fact, it is likely that Adam was with Eve when the serpent spoke with her, because the serpent address “Eve” in the plural, which would be how it would speak to more than one person.

It is true that Eve did not deceive Adam deliberately. However, she
was used by the serpent as the only instrument in Adam’s deception. It is not likely that Adam was with Eve when the serpent delivered its deceptive speech, for Adam blamed Eve when God asked him why he ate of the forbidden fruit. Adam most probably did not even see the serpent approach Eve. Accordingly, God questioned and punished Adam and Eve separately and individually, not as a group.

Although the serpent uses a plural personal pronoun while addressing Eve, this does not necessarily indicate Adam’s presence and involvement in the dialogue between the serpent and Eve. If I said “You Israelies are Abraham’s descendants through Jacob” while talking to you (Valke), this would not mean I could literally speak to every single member of the Israeli community at the same time.

 

[Lapell]

Jews do not view Satan as a fallen angel or doing anything that is against God’s Will. We don’t read Satan into Genesis, although we acknowledge his role in Job.

They don’t maybe, but has it always been the case? Like they also claim not to believe in an “original” sin which would have wounded the souls of all humans from then on. If we all come from Adam and Eve, what’s your take on this? Their trespassing what God had asked them had consequences on the creation and on themselves too, hadn’t it?.

 

[Jerusha]

If we all come from Adam and Eve, what’s your take on this? Their trespassing what God had asked them had consequences on the creation and on themselves too, hadn’t it?.

Perhaps the Pandora’s box story was a Hellenized version of the Jewish story. They appear to have similar roots.

That story is presented as nothing more than an explanation of hardship in the world as a result of disobeying a higher power’s order. This connection is made particularly strong in that Pandora was said to be Prometheus’s wife.

 

[Valke2]

Thanks. Do you have any idea what was God’s plan for the couple had they not eaten the fruit?

How literal is the story of Adam & Eve?

I guess it is as literal as you want to take it. I don’t take a literal meaning of it. As for God’s plan, it seems to have been something along the lines of having human tend the Garden.

Keep in mind that I view the story in this way: It was written in biblical times to explain the human condition – i.e., why we toil for our bread, why we procreate, why it is in our nature to rebel against God’s will…

I don’t need to believe that the story actually happened to believe the teaching/truths that I find in it.

Also, I find the story to be of greater value and deeper understanding when taken in context with the entire Torah. I keep meaning to expand on this a bit but the notes I want to use are at my home. Maybe later tonight…

 

[Valke2]

The story does not only explain the reasons underlying men’s aversion to serpents. Actually, the serpent in Eden hates Adam and Eve before Adam and Eve start hating the serpent as a consequence of their fall.

What leads you to believe that the serpent hated Adam and Eve?

More to the point, God is implied to consider the serpent evil even before the fall because He never questions the serpent or gives it the right to defend itself after its deceptive act.

This is of course possible. Suffice it to say that the story itself does not imply that Eve uses any deception or other tempting wiles on Adam.

 

[AgnosTheist]

As for God’s plan, it seems to have been something along the lines of having human tend the Garden.

Just to tend the Garden?

In Christianity salvation was meant to return people into God’s original plan for them…to keep God company, singing & serving him 24/7. (boring )

What about in Judaism, are righteous people gonna go back into becoming Gardeners again?

 

[Valke2]

Just to tend the Garden?

In Christianity salvation was meant to return people into God’s original plan for them…to keep God company, singing & serving him 24/7. (boring )

What about in Judaism, are righteous people gonna go back into becoming Gardeners again?

theology on the next world is a mixed bag in Judaism. Some believe they will study the Heavenly Torah in the next world. As for tending the Garden, I think that would be something that happens in this world, during the Messianic Age. The Messianic Age and the afterlife are two differnet things.

 

[Angelos]

What leads you to believe that the serpent hated Adam and Eve?

The answer to this question is the fact that the serpent talked Adam and Eve into disobeying God and thus caused their banishment (ruin).

Adam Defends himslef by blaming Eve (and God), Eve defends herself by blaming the snake, God doesn’t give the snake a chance to defend itself because there’s no one left to pass the buck to.

So you mean God decided on behalf of the serpent? You believe that God questioned Adam and Eve because He knew that they would put the blame on someone or something else? How do you know for sure that the serpent would be unable to defend itself due to the lack of someone else to blame?

That’s interesting. How do we deal with the fact, however, that the serpent is not given any such prohibitive commandment. And in fact, as far as we know, it is unaware of God’s express commandment and is only told what it is through Eve, who has embellished it to include a prohibition against touching.

The serpent was not given that commandment because the prohibition was confined to human inhabitants of the garden.Besides, the serpent knew the commandment and the consequences of Adam and Eve’s disobedience to it. The serpent asked Eve those questions because it was simply crafty.

But he only says that she gave him the fruit. He doesn’t say he wasn’t there. And again, the Hebrew has the snake speaking in the plural – to more than one. Also, if Eve ate first and then sought out Adam to give him the fruit, what are we to make of God not immediately stopping Eve but waiting for Adam to eat also?

I shall respond to this question with other questions: If the serpent addressed both Adam and Eve, why didn’t Adam interrupt the serpent or help Eve answer its questions? What prevented Adam from taking of the fruit himself?

God did not stop Eve from giving Adam the fruit because it was necessary for Adam to eat of it so that the process of breaking the commandment could be completed.

This is of course possible. Suffice it to say that the story itself does not imply that Eve uses any deception or other tempting wiles on Adam.

Eve does not deceive or tempt Adam because she directs him to the fruit without knowing the consequences. However, the serpent deceives Eve, who trusts its advice, and makes her guide Adam, who trusts his wife. Thus, the serpent abuses Eve for persuading Adam to follow its advice. As God uses Adam as an instrument in creating Eve, so does the serpent use Eve as an instrument for causing Adam to fall.

 

[Benadam]

Thanks. Do you have any idea what was God’s plan for the couple had they not eaten the fruit?

How literal is the story of Adam & Eve?

I think the life of Enoch made God’s original plan visible. He is the first mentioned to walk with God as opposed to hiding from Him.

 

[Sam_777]

At the time, many if not most ailments were attributable to “demons”, if I recall correctly. They would heal sick people through prayer and whatever medicine they used and would attribute success (often) to casting out demons. Healing and casting out demons were pretty much the same thing back then.

It was taught that demons were mostly invisible and that the rabbis knew a way to see them. However, it was dangerous and one rabbi was harmed, then cured byother rabbis through prayer (this is in a teaching that was given during the time the Talmud was written but that does not appear in the Talmud).

Josephus in “Jewish Antiquities” discusses a Jewish exorcist named Eleazar, who extracted a demon through a man’s nostrils, in front of Emperor Vespasian.

1st Century rabbi Hanina ben Dosa, encountered a demon and commanded that they never go in places where people lived. The demon begged for mercy and for some reason, he agreed to allow demons some free reign a couple of days a week. From this came the tradition/superstition of not going out alone at night on certain days.

Then why there were demon-possessed people before Jesus that no one was able to cure, look at this verse from the Bible:

** Matthew 8:28-32** “When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.”

Notice that “no one could pass that way”, which means that those men were well known at that time, and yet no one was able to cure or help them.

Honestly, during my soul time in Islam, I was afraid of demons, particularly in the dark areas, because of all the stories about them in our Islamic religion, but after my soul knew Lord Jesus, that fear has gone from me, I’m no more afraid of anything, that was one of reasons that assured me that Christianity is the right path.

Praise the King of Kings and Lord of Lords

 

[swariffin]

I don’t think the serpent was demon possessed or satan. I think it was what Genesis says it was – the most cunning of all animals. This is why I believe Genesis teaches that the origins of evil are not based on some entity or metaphysical state of being, but rather on the moral choices of humans. Since human was given dominon over the animal kingdom, and since the serpent was an animal, then Adam and Eve were more powerful than the serpent and the choices they made were their choices. They chose to exercise free will in a way that was not in accordance with the Divine Will.

Dear Vicky,

You are almost correct assessing the “creation” of evil. If you look further at 1 John 3:8 stated that “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning…” we can see that it was the devil who sinned from the beginning. So, despite out of the free will that human sinned, the driving force was from outside human themselves, which in this case was the devil itself.

 

[swariffin]

Thanks. Do you have any idea what was God’s plan for the couple had they not eaten the fruit?

How literal is the story of Adam & Eve?

Dear Agnos,

Had the couple did not eat the forbidden fruit, the couple would have still live in Eden, which means still live “Within God’s Love”. It was God’s intention as human was first created to live within God’s love. Gen 1:31 said that it was very good, so the creation of human was good in accordance to God’s will. Eden as the RCC believes means “Within God’s Love”. It is not necessarily mean a “Place”.

 

[swariffin]

Then why there were demon-possessed people before Jesus that no one was able to cure, look at this verse from the Bible:

** Matthew 8:28-32** “When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.”

Notice that “no one could pass that way”, which means that those men were well known at that time, and yet no one was able to cure or help them.

Honestly, during my soul time in Islam, I was afraid of demons, particularly in the dark areas, because of all the stories about them in our Islamic religion, but after my soul knew Lord Jesus, that fear has gone from me, I’m no more afraid of anything, that was one of reasons that assured me that Christianity is the right path.

Praise the King of Kings and Lord of Lords

You are correct, my brother. Demon cannot harm human unless authorized by God. The only thing that demon can do, is persuade and cheat human to damage ourselves by committing sins out of our own free will (unrealized off course). If we can resist the temptation of the demon, there is nothing it can do to harm us. Good for you, brother. Do not afraid of the demon in the dark places. But, beware. The demon will trap you by means of lust, greed, hunger for power, and all of that kind of “sins”. That is the “darkness” that we should be afraid of. But again, in dark places, there can be human being who is tempted by the devil to rob you, kill you and take away your wallet. That what we should be careful too.

 

[Ronald_E]

May I offer some comments from my perspective of human development. It appears a mistake has been made concerning the understanding of the beginning of sin. The beginning of the story must be understood in terms of two pure innocent beings becoming self-aware through the consequences of choices made in an unknown world. This story must be understood from the perspective of compassion which emanates from love that is the spark that we retain from our original parents.
John Paul II seems to have mistakenly inserted the end of the story of our relationship with God into the beginning of our journey to God. I believe JP II attributed to Eve and Adam a mature knowledge of God and themselves which they never possessed in the first place. The story of Eve and Adam seems to be about two creatures who through the gift of being self-aware have the freedom to explore the infinite unknown in a finite body with finite senses.
God is not known to them except through the senses. Adam must become familiar with the earth and he must also become familiar with his Creator. This seems like an enormous task to me. Being made in the “image” of God, creates in me a desire to identify and understand what particular traits I share in common with God. James 1:14-15 states “…each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.”
Desire is also a trait that God seems to possess and creation is the result of His desire.
To have full knowledge of creation is also the reality of God. We as an image of God seem to possess the desire to have knowledge of who we are and why we are here. God then begins with Adam by giving him a little on the job training. In the order of portrayed events it is depicted that God plants a garden for him. I would imagine that Adam is observing this. I know that I learn best by observing and doing rather than being told what to do. God creates animals and brings them to Adam. Adam looks at them and names them according to his developing reasoning and observational skills. So he and the animals are made from the same earth but Adam is beginning to know that he is different.
Adam is still a mystery to himself and God is still a mystery too.
The next part of the learning process is to begin to teach Adam to look internally at himself in order to begin to identify in himself what he cannot see with his senses.
Adam has not learned to look internally as yet. He is put to sleep and a part is taken from him and made into a mate. This part of him is unknown but is identified by him through the five senses. She identified by him as “…flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone.” However, she is one step removed from connection to the earth. She is not created from clay. She is created from the unknown and unconscious part of the man who must discover the significance of this gift from God that he is immediately attracted to and identifies as himself but not himself.
She only knows herself through Adam’s description which is incomplete at best. We human beings desire to know who we are. When others tell us who we are through their prejudiced beliefs we are left with a sense of emptiness because the finite mind cannot know the infinite which is at the foundation of our identity. This reaction to another’s description of us awakens a desire to discover who we are and where we come from.
This then brings us to the two trees.
There is no disobedience to God because there is no knowledge nor experience as yet with choice. To use the term disobedience at this point in theological interpretation of the events in the garden seems to be a reflection of the effects of sin that have hardened the human heart and prejudice our understanding of an innocent and naive beginning of our original parents relationship to God, the world, each other and with themselves.
Must go now.

 

[Valke2]

1. The word “man” first occurs in Gen. 2:23, after woman has been formed. Prior to this, it was “Human”? As discussed earlier, sexual distinction has no meaning unless there are at least two kinds of a species.
2. The story of Adam & Eve is a story about all mankind. Gen. 2:24: On account of this a man leaves his father… Prior to the tree of knowledge story, this fact is established. Gen 2:24 makes it clear that the consequences of the events we are about to read will be the fate of all of us.
3. In 3:1 we read that the snake was sly. In Hebrew, this is a pun. arum is the word for sly. After Adam eats from the tree, we read that his is erom – naked. The condition and the snakes characteristic are spelled with the same consonants. So we have man using the word “erom” when he is actually no longer naked. He is attempting, like the snake, to mislead.
4. An example of the snake’s attempt to mislead would be the use of confusing sentence structure. “Has God indeed said you may not eat from any tree of the Garden?”
5. In Gen. 3:3, Eve incorrectly says that God prohibited her from touching the fruit. Rashi uses this as an example of the principle that if one starts out by adding to a command one may come to take away from it at the end. It is fascinating that this principle is introduced in the opening chapters of Torah, because it is an essential principal that is reinforced at the end of the Torah in Deut. 4:2; and 13:1, where Moses says “You shall not add to the thing that I command you, and you shall not take away from it.”