Thoughts on the Trinity

[R_C]

What do you mean by “Consubstantial?” Would you say that you and I are “Consubstantial” or would you say that the only three “persons” who are consubstantial one with another are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? …] I will suggest that the Bible calling Jesus Christ, “Son of God” does not demand that He is divine.

You and I could not be consubstantial, because (as the previous post covers) you and I are distinct individuals.

The word actually relates to the Greek homoousion, “of one essence”. Arius had taught that the Son, being, in the language of Philo, the Intermediator between God and the world, was not eternal, and therefore not of the Divine substance, but a creature brought forth by the free will of God. The term homoousion or consubstantial - while not perfect - was enough to address his error, though it is rather obvious when we read of Christ speaking of the Son not doing anything on His own, but doing only what he sees the Father doing, and the Son and the Father addressing one another, and yet later we see Christ saying: “I and the Father are one”, and “just like you and I are one, Father”. That leaves no room for doubt on the unity of the Father and the Son in essence, and yet on the fact that in this unity they are distinct persons. Which is why some heretical doctrines only accept the Father while others only accept the Father and the Son.

Athenagoras (133-190) writes that Christians “are conducted to the future life by this one thing alone, that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, and the Father, and their distinction in unity.”

As for the Bible not demanding His divinity simply because of the name Son of God:

• because He was asked in the name of God to admit if He was the Son of God and in truth He acknowledged that He was Him, Jesus was accused of blasphemy, and indeed they had time and again told him that they wanted him put to death for a very simple reason:

for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

The teachers of the Law understood very well what Christ was saying, though He never said: I am God. Even without the title Son of God or Son of Man or Messiah, his works spoke for himself: above all else, his authority to remit sins. There was no doubt that he had that authority, and yet the teachers of the law were baffled because, indeed, “only God can forgive sins.”

Even in what Christ did in life, when we read the Scriptures we find that these are things that the prophets spoke of as God Himself doing. Ex: his walking on water and calming down the storms. The prophets in Psalms clearly address He who does this as God. And the prophet Isaiah spelled it out very clearly, ruling out the subsequent heresies of Christ being either a prophet or an angel:

It was not a messenger or an angel, but He himself who saved them.

Ultimately the fact that Thomas addressed Christ as Lord and God and Christ accepted the title and said: “you say this because you have believed, but blessed are those who will believe without having seen” is a clear acceptance of His divinity - else, like the angels and the apostles did, He would have mentioned that He was only a messenger of God.

 

[R_C]

A different but related topic: Do you believe scripture really means what it says here? Are we (Christ is speaking to the Apostles, but I think it best to extend this to all mankind) to become “ONE” “just like” Father and Son are one? If scripture means what it says and we are to become one like Father and Son are one, what can we infer/deduce/decide concerning the Oneness of Father and Son? Does your concept of Oneness align with this inference?

This is a very different and yet very related topic, worth of a separate thread! To understand this, we must address what we call the hypostatic union of the human nature and the divine nature in Jesus, the Son of God who took flesh and became true man. “God became what He was not”, and yet in doing so the Trinity was not enriched in any way, for it is already perfect. It is very complex. Ultimately we are becoming one with the Son by partaking in the flesh - the Son, who is Bridegroom, gives His body to each and everyone of us (collectively, the Bride), and “the two become one flesh”. As such, we partake in the divine nature, becoming truly one with the Son, one mystical body of which the Son is Head and we are members.

But in this there is no consubstantiality, just like there is no consubstantiality between the human nature and the divine nature in Jesus, but, rather, a hypostatic union, or “subsistence of the natures in one person”. We truly become the Son. St. Paul understood this very clearly when he wrote: “your body is not your own” and “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me”.

We could here branch unto three entirely different discussions: one on the hypostatic union, a second one on the fulfillment of this unity in the partaking of the bread which truly becomes the body of Christ (and thus we could dwell into the theology of the transubstantiation), and a third one on the nature of Satan’s temptations and their underlying pattern (that is, how his temptations rely on enticing men with things that God has already planned to give them - ex he tempts Christ offering all the kingdoms on earth, he tempts Eve offering her to become like God, both things he could not give but God already had intended to give).

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P.s.: I begun answering with post #16.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It is not possible to assert:;.

Correct

• that there are not three persons who are one God, but one God only;.

“We acknowledge the Trinity, holy and perfect, to consist of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In this Trinity there is no intrusion of any alien element or of anything from outside, nor is the Trinity a blend of creative and created being. It is a wholly creative and energizing reality, self-consistent and undivided in its active power, for the Father makes all things through the Word and in the Holy Spirit, and in this way the unity of the holy Trinity is preserved. Accordingly, in the Church, one God is preached, one God who is above all things and through all things and in all things. God is above all things as Father, for he is principle and source; he is through all things through the Word; and he is in all things in the Holy Spirit.” St Athanasius

• that there are not three persons who are co-equal or co-eternal but there is one and only one God…

Biblical exegesis

• That Jesus was solely a prophet but in no way God…

Islamic point of debate which indicates a misunderstanding of Scripture. Point in case is Hebrews Chapter 1:1-10 and its exegesis and cross reference among others. Read it slow follow the footnotes.

• for Christians it would be blasphemy to think that there is anything more than one God;.

In fact its heresy, nothing new and expected. Jesus was God but not man, Jesus was man but not God, there are many Gods. All are incorrect and lead to heresy. The attack comes like this, Jesus was a Messiah, Jesus was the Son of Man, Jesus was a Prophet are the point focused on which do not clearly indicate God, all lacking exegesis. Islam and JWs

• • There is no way that Jesus can be considered anything less than God unless we want to rule out all of the Gospels as falsehood, but that would mean to forget about all of the miracles, exorcisms, and private revelations throughout 20 centuries, which would be irrational to do.

Amen, perhaps scripture for the sake of the debate. Since one won’t believe Tradition, then I have no -issue with Biblical debate. All one has to do is go to YOUTUBE and watch this severely flawed misunderstanding which James White biblically destroys as mentioned above. Everything mentioned here is elaborated on there by White with Islam.

John 3:10 “No-one has “ever” gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven----The Son of Man.”

Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

John 8:23-24 “I am NOT OF THIS WORLD, if you do not believe that I AM who I claim to be, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN.”

John 8:58 “Before Abraham was born, I AM”

John 16 “I came from the Father and entered the World, now I am leaving and going back to the Father.”

Revelation 1:8 " I AM the Alpha and the Omega said the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty" this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ=God.

Revelation 22:13 “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last the Beginning and the END” this I would read carefully also in context.

John 4:10, 26 "if you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given to you ‘Living Water’ Then Jesus declared; “I who speak to you am He.”

John 10:30 “I and the Father are One”

Many scenario’s are created in debate. None good, the idea the gospels extended the reality of Jesus Christ in His being from Mark forward isn’t relevant, the idea the term God is not used is in fact a Jewish custom which in resect they follow. So too we see this.

The idea the Bible doesn’t explain the Trinity of Jesus is the Living God, is lacking in the exegesis.

 

[TOmNossor]

Great Post. I just hope the OP is serious enough to ponder what you have written.

Steve, I think R_C’s statements match well with the Catholic Encyclopedia section R_C has now offered. I found much poetry in R_C’s words, but the Catholic Encyclopedia helped me to understand a little better I hope.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

If anyone can truly explain the Holy Trinty, that person would be a great theologian, by faith I believe it.

I can appreciate that. It does however appear to be a point of MUCH division and criticism. It seems to me that “by faith I believe it” is a wonderful course to take, but not one the early Christian church took. I guess I see in their course much of which to be leery. And I am no theologian BTW (and no historian), but I try.
Charity, TOm

 

[57Bill]

It’s something that I cannot wrap my head around. However the easiest for me to explain is

God creates, God redeems, God comforts.

Evereything we will ever need comes from God.

 

[Edward_H]

You perhaps want to read some books on the theology of the Trinity as taught throughout the centuries by the Catholic Church. It is difficult for us to craft appropriate answers. At least for me. All of what you say has been already addressed, literally ad nauseam. You are not the first one that ponders over these things!

It is impossible to assert what you assert, for it is rooted on an erroneous understanding of the nature of God.

I’ll try to express a very basic idea here, bear with me.

The concept of “person” is only definable within the indivisible unity of God’s nature with regards to the origin of each person.

God the Father is the Creator of all things.

When we think of ourselves, we have an image of ourselves in mind, an imperfect image that is destined to disappear as other thoughts arise. When God the Father thinks of Himself, this Thought is a perfect thought, and is the Son, the living Word of God, who would say:

Thus the Son is generated, not created, consubstantial with the Father, “light from light”, “true God from true God”.

Indeed through revelation we know that “everything was made through Him” (the Son) “and without Him nothing was made”. We also know that He said: “the Father does not judge anyone, but has given all judgment to the Son”. Indeed, the Father gives everything to the Son as His divine inheritance, and the Son says: “All power has been given to me in heaven, on earth, and under the earth”. This is God’s will, because in the Son the Father is well-pleased, and because in the Son all of God’s children are gathered into one mystical Body, of which the Son is Head.

As it is natural, the Father and the Son, acknowledging each other, love each other. When this occurs between creatures, this love is strong indeed, but imperfect. Between the Father and the Son, who in truth are still One God, this love is perfect, in fact, is a living love and a perfect bound. This love is what is called the Holy Spirit, love of the Father and the Son, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son receives one same adoration and glory. It is the Holy Spirit, this love, which unites the One nature of God. It is this Spirit who inspires the prophets to speak of God, and of the Father and the Son. And if you read the Bible, especially Psalms and Isaiah, you will find many of this dialogues between the Father and the Son narrated by the Holy Spirit through the prophets.

Do understand that the Son, as God and as one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, existed even before time itself came into existence. Only at a certain moment in time did the Son take human flesh to fulfill the salvation of mankind:

By the will of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit was the Son himself to become human. In doing this, the Spirit that united the Father and the Son now reached throughout all humanity: this Spirit, though the Son, who had become true man, extended to all of humanity to gather them into one:

This is why when we address God in the most excellent prayer of Christianity, we say at one point to the Father, referring to the Son:

This literally means that after the incarnation of the Son, by being united with Him we partake of the divine nature. For this reason the apostles of the Son were very explicit in their teachings: “your body is not your own, but the temple of the Holy Spirit.” And they taught that there is only one body, of which we are all members, and of which the Son is head."

I hope that any of the above has provided some insight. Remember that it is literally impossible for human beings to understand the divine mystery of God’s nature. It is only through revelation that we begin to grasp the trinitarian nature of God, but even this way we cannot express it if not partially. But our knowledge, while limited, is incredibly sound.

Great post. Well said. Thank you.

 

[Edward_H]

The Athanasian Creed really covers much of this.

newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

 

[TOmNossor]

Its a matter of the Ecumenical Council’s/Deposit of Faith. The Nicene Creed, many Saints and much time, perhaps the prolific work of this St will help.

agapebiblestudy.com/documents/On%20The%20Most%20Holy%20Trinity.htm

Its also here in the CCC.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm
Gary, Thank you for the links. I believe Athanasius developed in his understanding of the Trinity over his lifetime with Nicea being a starting point.

The CCC you linked to says this:

** 252** The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
I am more of a historian than a theologian especially when it comes to Catholic thought (and truth is I am a poor excuse for a theologian and/or a historian, instead I am an engineer).
Some of R_C’s comments and this bit here have given me an idea for a new thread (with a provocative title). I hope to get to that eventually, but I make no promises.
Thank you for the links!
Charity, TOm

 

[SteveVH]

A different but related topic: Do you believe scripture really means what it says here? Are we (Christ is speaking to the Apostles, but I think it best to extend this to all mankind) to become “ONE” “just like” Father and Son are one? If scripture means what it says and we are to become one like Father and Son are one, what can we infer/deduce/decide concerning the Oneness of Father and Son? Does your concept of Oneness align with this inference?

We cannot fathom the"oneness" that we will experience when we will live and participate in the very family of God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We call it the “beatific vision”. As Rebecca stated in Post #15, however, we can and do experience this “oneness” in the Eucharist, when the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ himself becomes, very literally, a part of me. There is no more intimate relationship possible on this earth.

 

[TOmNossor]

I am reading a book called “The Forgotten Trinity” by James White. Very good so far. Even has an endorsement from Fr Pacwa on the back. It is faith in the Trinity which unites Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic and Protestants.

To be honest, I have heard good things about James White when it comes to his explaining what he believes in a positive way. I have not read this.
Charity, TOm

 

[GaryTaylor]

The CCC you linked to says this

Not sure what your point is? What is your concern with the paragraph?

 

[TOmNossor]

To give a very simple understanding of the Holy Trinity we can go to the Holy Family to discover these simple truths. The Holy Family of Jesus, Mary and Joseph is an excellent type or representation of the Holy Trinity in Heaven. Jesus of course represents Himself, Mary represents the Holy Spirit and Joseph represents the Eternal Father. The Trinity in Heaven are actually a family of three Divine persons. God in fact created the whole human family after His own model from Heaven. Every family on earth is another trinity. Your father represents the Father, your mother represents the Holy Spirit and childen have the greatest bond to Jesus for they represent the Son of God. In all three scenerios we see the Trinity. Archbishop Fulton Sheen often recorded on his blackboard JMJ representing the Holy Family our closest image of the Holy Trinity on earth.

Thank you for your thoughts. I think my thoughts are closer to yours than some of the others we are discussing here, but the distinctions between different concepts of the Holy Trinity are had in a lot of words.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

“The God Of Jesus Christ”, by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger is a gem of a book that I recommend. It’s inexpensive, even more so if you get an ebook version.

As to your points, point #1 is rather Islamic in nature, which of course, is not Christian. The rest I find no disagreement with, though, there seems to be the issue of definition going on. (As it always is with Mormons.)

#1 is intended to be Islamic in nature. I began by trying to establish the idea that there is a spectrum of monotheism.
I have not read Ratzinger’s book. The title suggests that I might need to do so as it is an avenue of my studies that I am presently pursuing.

Is Ratzinger drawing out what the following scriptures say about the One Jesus Christ calls God? (The God of Jesus Christ):

John 20:17:

Jesus said to her, Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

Cor. 3:22-23:

Paul or Apollos or Kephas, or the world or life or death, or the present or the future all belong to you, and you to Christ, and Christ to God.

Cor 11:3:

But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34:

And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

The title suggested this to me and it is a topic I need to research some more.
Charity, TOm

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thoughts on the Trinity

I am going to offer some initial thoughts and see what sort of agreement or disagreement I get.

1. It is possible to assert (though it may not be a true assertion) that God is absolutely one. There are not three persons who are one God, but one God ONLY. There are not three persons who are co-equal or co-eternal. There is one and only one God. Prophets like Moses and/or Jesus and/or Mohammad and/or Bahaullah and/or … are prophets, but in no way are they the One God. Persons who espouse this position would find plenty reason to call even Oneness Pentecostals or Sabellius polytheists.
2. The Bible teaches there is one God.
3. Christians for the most part speak of God the Father as God/divine.
4. Christians for the most part speak of Christ as God, Christ as God the Son, Christ as divine, or some of all these.
5. Christians likewise speak of the Holy Spirit as God, the Holy Spirit as divine, or some similar terms.
6. Except for modalists (I think Oneness Pentecostals are modern modalist and Sabellius was an ancient modalist) Christians assert that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are not the identical (most common is the statement that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are not the same “person.”),

I am interested in hearing any thoughts (challenges or clarifications or …) to the above. I have hopes of moving to other topics, but I thought I would explore these 6 points first.
Charity, TOm

God is a single being and three persons.
I am a single being and one person.
A rock is a single being and no person.

The number of persons is not the determining factor.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you for your thoughts. I think my thoughts are closer to yours than some of the others we are discussing here, but the distinctions between different concepts of the Holy Trinity are had in a lot of words.
Charity, TOm

Of course, and why?

 

[GaryTaylor]

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

This actually distinguishes Jesus as divine. He does not say “our Father” because His reality isn’t the same as those He speaks with. Context/Content.

1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Ah but “superiority” is not a contingent of the verse. Just as man is not superior to woman.

1 Cor. 3:22-23: Paul or Apollos or Kephas, or the world or life or death, or the present or the future all belong to you, and you to Christ, and Christ to God.

The mistake here is a combination of both above.

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 in fulfillment of it on the Cross.

Peace

 

[TOmNossor]

Personal thoughts on the subject is that it is too confusing to think about with this pea mind. Good thing Jesus rose from the dead so his teachings to Apostles can be believed with confidence.

Of course you and I agree that Athanasius was not an Apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Furthermore I suspect we can agree that the words we have from the Apostles were not sufficient to silence the Arians. During Nicea the Arians were comfortable with a number of proposed confessions because they found their ideas were allowable. It was an extraordinary extra-Biblical word that was brought into service that finally shut the door on Arius (at least as the Nicene Council came to an end).

To be honest, I think you are saying that you find the deposit of faith protected by the council of bishops and the Pope sufficient to point you towards God in a salvific way.

In truth this highlights something that confuses me. If a proper understanding of the Trinity was worth all the things the early church went through to define it and exclude those who would not embrace it, how can it be acceptable today for so many folks to not understand it? If orthodoxy is as important as the history of Eastern and Western Christianity would suggest it is, how can so many folks in the pews have so little understanding of the doctrines?
Charity, TOm

 

[GaryTaylor]

When did truth become contingent to popular belief or understanding? The truth is the truth if NO-ONE believes it or knows it.

 

[SteveVH]

Furthermore I suspect we can agree that the words we have from the Apostles were not sufficient to silence the Arians. During Nicea the Arians were comfortable with a number of proposed confessions because they found their ideas were allowable. It was an extraordinary extra-Biblical word that was brought into service that finally shut the door on Arius (at least as the Nicene Council came to an end).

It was a determination by the Church who was given the authority to bind and loose. The Church, in keeping with duty to guard and protect the deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles, has fought heresies since its inception.

To be honest, I think you are saying that you find the deposit of faith protected by the council of bishops and the Pope sufficient to point you towards God in a salvific way.

Abslolutely. What do you think Christ’s purpose was in starting a Church?

In truth this highlights something that confuses me. If a proper understanding of the Trinity was worth all the things the early church went through to define it and exclude those who would not embrace it, how can it be acceptable today for so many folks to not understand it? If orthodoxy is as important as the history of Eastern and Western Christianity would suggest it is, how can so many folks in the pews have so little understanding of the doctrines?

While I will never defend anyone’s right to remain ignorant in their faith, and yes, there are many of those in the pews, why would you expect anyone to fully understand the nature of God? The Trinity is a divine revelation. We can believe it even if we cannnot fully understand it because it comes from the Church which is "the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Tim 3:15)