Thoughts

[mynameismeg]

I have a bit of liturgical training. And yes, I can play the game of pointing out every liturgical abuse during the Mass. But, I’ve learned a few things. First, and foremost is charity is essential. Second, is that it since is easy for me to notice all the things that are done wrong, I have to ask myself a few questions, and it all comes down to the bottom line: Was Jesus truly present in the Eucharist? Or in other words, was the Mass valid? YES. Was I prevented from participating fully and experiencing Jesus fully in the Eucharist because I was too busy pointing out all the mistakes? YES. So I was no different than the Pharisees in the Gospels. I lost sight of what was ultimately important because I was too concerned with what was less important. Yes, there are things that really ought to be changed in how things are done in my parish, but the Mass is still valid, and so there is no reason I shouldn’t attend Mass there. And above all things, charity.

 

[catherineajt]

Guitar Music, they once had someone with an electric guitar and drums, Female Altar Servers, Tabernacle not in Center, Priest Rarely uses incense, Eucharistic Ministers (use at every Mass even when not needed. They have two priests and two deacons. No need for eucharistic ministers at all). They do all the things that I completely despise about the post V2 form of Mass. I just wanted to show everyone why I chose to go to an Orthodox church vs a local parish. Had to let a little steam off I guess. My ideal parish would be like this one.

cantius.org/

or

materecclesiae.org/home.php

But I know that where I live now this would only be a pipe dream.

Hm, with those in mind I wouldn’t desire to attend church there, but then again, it doesn’t offer Divine Liturgy anyway. I much prefer the Byzantine traditions, but that’s me.

 

[catherineajt]

So when people tell me not to go to an Orthodox Church, you all know where I stand on this issue. Either go to an Orthodox Church with a valid priesthood and sacraments or stay home for the rest of my life, with no church at all. They do have a Ukrainian Catholic church locally. But there as well, incense hardly used, poor singing, priest runs through Divine Liturgy at top speed. Latinized!.

Do you take communion at the Orthodox Church? I only ask because most Orthodox priests would be quite upset at the prospect of a Catholic trying to take Eucharist at an Orthodox Liturgy.

As the others have said, I would opt to go to the church that was closest to my ideal environment for worship, even if it did not meet up completely with that ideal, than go to a church that was not in communion with Rome. I would probably attend the Ukrainian church, since I can put with “poor singing” more than I could liturgical abuses.

 

[bkovacs]

I have a bit of liturgical training. And yes, I can play the game of pointing out every liturgical abuse during the Mass. But, I’ve learned a few things. First, and foremost is charity is essential. Second, is that it since is easy for me to notice all the things that are done wrong, I have to ask myself a few questions, and it all comes down to the bottom line: Was Jesus truly present in the Eucharist? Or in other words, was the Mass valid? YES. Was I prevented from participating fully and experiencing Jesus fully in the Eucharist because I was too busy pointing out all the mistakes? YES. So I was no different than the Pharisees in the Gospels. I lost sight of what was ultimately important because I was too concerned with what was less important. Yes, there are things that really ought to be changed in how things are done in my parish, but the Mass is still valid, and so there is no reason I shouldn’t attend Mass there. And above all things, charity.

So where is the charity towards traditional Catholics in these parishes. Do they even bother to make an effort to accommodate us. No!. We are laughed at. We just have to show charity towards them.

 

[bkovacs]

Do you take communion at the Orthodox Church? I only ask because most Orthodox priests would be quite upset at the prospect of a Catholic trying to take Eucharist at an Orthodox Liturgy.

As the others have said, I would opt to go to the church that was closest to my ideal environment for worship, even if it did not meet up completely with that ideal, than go to a church that was not in communion with Rome. I would probably attend the Ukrainian church, since I can put with “poor singing” more than I could liturgical abuses.

I can’t unless I am chrismated. But they do offer me bread during the communion to show that I am welcomed. And they do appreciate me when I come to Vespers on Saturday night.

 

[catherineajt]

So where is the charity towards traditional Catholics in these parishes. Do they even bother to make an effort to accommodate us. No!. We are laughed at. We just have to show charity towards them.

I’m pretty sure Jesus got laughed at a lot during his time on earth, as well. My mother in law is a devout “traditional” Catholic. She prefers the Latin mass if she can find it, but if she attends a modernized parish, she adapts. I can testify that her gaze never wavers from the altar (except perhaps to hand her grandkids some coins for the collection basket, or a missal to look at or a rosary to hold). If you ask her afterwards, “weren’t you distracted by the guitars or the people talking in front of us?” she honestly has no idea what you’re talking about.

In her ideal world, every parish would have at least one Latin Mass. Everybody would wear modest clothing to church and act in a way pleasing to God. But she recognizes that she lives in THIS world, and does her best to focus on the core of the Mass, which is Christ.

She gets funny looks sometimes when she kneels in a parish where the custom is to not kneel. If there are no kneelers, she kneels on the floor. She doesn’t mind if she gets laughed at.

 

[catherineajt]

I can’t unless I am chrismated. But they do offer me bread during the communion to show that I am welcomed. And they do appreciate me when I come to Vespers on Saturday night.

Good–i only asked because I have known some Catholics who thought they could go up and take communion without telling the priest they were Catholic. I was pretty sure you wouldn’t try that, though.

 

[lizaanne]

What is wrong with it? It seems like a very active parish that is growing. They are involved in Pro-life activities, ministry to the poor, have an active school and religious ed program. What don’t you like about it besides that they don’t have a Latin Mass?

I agree - it seems like a thriving parish to me. Their sanctuary is a bit disco for my taste, but not every parish can afford a huge marble altar and large statues and other ornate “stuff”. For me personally, I don’t think I would go there, only because I’m one of those folks who needs that “stuff” to help me feed my spirituality. Not everyone is like that. But I think it looks like a nice parish from what I could see.



~Liza

 

[Genesis315]

I find it interesting that someone calling himself a traditional Catholic goes to a schismatic Church to worship (how “ecumenical” of you.)–most professed traditionalists I have read classify worship in any form at a non-Catholic Church as either a grave sin in itself or at least gravely imprudent.

 

[bkovacs]

Do you take communion at the Orthodox Church? I only ask because most Orthodox priests would be quite upset at the prospect of a Catholic trying to take Eucharist at an Orthodox Liturgy.

As the others have said, I would opt to go to the church that was closest to my ideal environment for worship, even if it did not meet up completely with that ideal, than go to a church that was not in communion with Rome. I would probably attend the Ukrainian church, since I can put with “poor singing” more than I could liturgical abuses.

The Byzantine Catholic Churches are becoming more latinized every day. From what I have read they just retranslated the Divine Liturgy to be inclusive, in the Ruthenian Church, mainly giving in to secularization. There was no need for this at all. I used to attend a Ruthenian mission church, but the diocese of Passaic decided to shut it down. So the Priest returned back to the Orthodox Church. Where they gave him a new parish, which is going quite well. I guess the diocese of Passaic had problems because he was married. It was kind of a blow to me. Because I really enjoyed going there. I learned allot about the eastern church there.

 

[bkovacs]

I find it interesting that someone calling himself a traditional Catholic goes to a schismatic Church to worship (how “ecumenical” of you.)–most professed traditionalists I have read classify worship in any form at a non-Catholic Church as either a grave sin in itself or at least gravely imprudent.

So what would you do. How would you make use of your 1962 missal if you could never use it at a Mass, because they refuse to offer the TLM. How would you follow the calendar of the ExtraOrdinary Form if that calendar wasn’t used at the Mass you go to. “No Father your wrong it is this feast day”. The Orthodox may be schismatic, but at least it is traditional in it’s faith and liturgy. Is the SSPX schismatic.

 

[Gloria1]

keep up the good work! thanks very much for sharing!

 

[catherineajt]

The Byzantine Catholic Churches are becoming more latinized every day. From what I have read they just retranslated the Divine Liturgy to be inclusive, in the Ruthenian Church, mainly giving in to secularization. There was no need for this at all. I used to attend a Ruthenian mission church, but the diocese of Passaic decided to shut it down. So the Priest returned back to the Orthodox Church. Where they gave him a new parish, which is going quite well. I guess the diocese of Passaic had problems because he was married. It was kind of a blow to me. Because I really enjoyed going there. I learned allot about the eastern church there.

Inclusive in the language? How does that take away from the validity of the Sacrament? I have never understood that. There are honestly no Catholic churches in your area that don’t irritate the heck out of you? None that you can try to find some good in?

I guess we’re lucky; the priest at our Ruthenian church is a Franciscan monk, and as near as I can tell, he’s not going anywhere.

 

[Joannm]

I have a bit of liturgical training. And yes, I can play the game of pointing out every liturgical abuse during the Mass. But, I’ve learned a few things. First, and foremost is charity is essential. Second, is that it since is easy for me to notice all the things that are done wrong, I have to ask myself a few questions, and it all comes down to the bottom line: Was Jesus truly present in the Eucharist? Or in other words, was the Mass valid? YES. Was I prevented from participating fully and experiencing Jesus fully in the Eucharist because I was too busy pointing out all the mistakes? YES. So I was no different than the Pharisees in the Gospels. I lost sight of what was ultimately important because I was too concerned with what was less important. Yes, there are things that really ought to be changed in how things are done in my parish, but the Mass is still valid, and so there is no reason I shouldn’t attend Mass there. And above all things, charity.

You make very good points. When I first started studying liturgy, I was so aware of every little error that I could not concentrate. One of my profs. told me to immediatly stop this and focus on Jesus. After many years once in awhile I slip, but for the most part I can overlook small errors and keep my focus on what I should be focusing on.

 

[Brother_John]

You make very good points. When I first started studying liturgy, I was so aware of every little error that I could not concentrate. One of my profs. told me to immediatly stop this and focus on Jesus. After many years once in awhile I slip, but for the most part I can overlook small errors and keep my focus on what I should be focusing on.

It boggles my brain, the amount of time and effort some go to, trying to find something wrong in each church they enter.

Are we there to worship, or find fault…

I’m reminded of the Mass post Vatican II but prior to the Liturgical changes…

"Through my fault,

Through my fault,

Through my most grevious fault…"

 

[bkovacs]

Inclusive in the language? How does that take away from the validity of the Sacrament? I have never understood that. There are honestly no Catholic churches in your area that don’t irritate the heck out of you? None that you can try to find some good in?

I guess we’re lucky; the priest at our Ruthenian church is a Franciscan monk, and as near as I can tell, he’s not going anywhere.

An Eastern Rite with Western Orders. Latinization. No Benedictines, Dominicans, etc were overseeing churches in Byzantium. Eastern Rites need to stick to eastern orders and Western Rites to western orders. I don’t see Franciscans in the Orthodox Church or Coptic Church for that matter. Soon Ruthenians will be saying the Liturgy of the Hours, than what Eucharistic Ministers at the Divine Liturgy.

 

[goofyjim]

I’d go. Mostly because it doesn’t seem much different than my parish, which I am content with. No TLM but that doesn’t bother me. If I want that occasionally I go down to Norristown.

 

[holdencaulfield]

In an assembly of faithful for which I have nothing in common with liturgically. The Orthodox do have a valid Eucharist according to Rome. I’m not going to Worship God with guitars and clapping. I will worship him with chant, smells and bells fit for the king of glory. Like they have done for thousands of years before V2. Like they did in the Middle Ages, and in the days of the Emperor. The same Mass and Liturgies that St Benedict, St Dominic, St Francis, St Photius, and St Ephrem the Syrian in the East would have attended. Archbishop Bugnini and V2 took away what was sacred and watered it down considerably.

The Orthodox do practice valid Sacraments, however one who is in full Communion with the Catholic Church is not permitted to receive the Eucharist by either Church in an Orthodox Parish. I think that you need to get your priorities straightened out. I agree with you 100% on what worship should be like, however if one wants to follow the Roman Pontiff, one must do so 100%. There is no in between. If I was you I would tell this parish what they have become. I also believe that Pope Benedict XVI is going to slowly but surely restore the Church to what it was. If he does not, I think many other people will leave as well. However the Papacy of Succession from St. Peter will make most people stay. Most people to not want to leave the Rock.

 

[bkovacs]

The Orthodox do practice valid Sacraments, however one who is in full Communion with the Catholic Church is not permitted to receive the Eucharist by either Church in an Orthodox Parish. I think that you need to get your priorities straightened out. I agree with you 100% on what worship should be like, however if one wants to follow the Roman Pontiff, one must do so 100%. There is no in between. If I was you I would tell this parish what they have become. I also believe that Pope Benedict XVI is going to slowly but surely restore the Church to what it was. If he does not, I think many other people will leave as well. However the Papacy of Succession from St. Peter will make most people stay. Most people to not want to leave the Rock.

Telling this parish what they have become will do no good. The majority of them prefer the new ways. They do not wish to give up their eucharistic ministerial duties, or loose their female altar servers. And God forbid if they had to put their guitars down and learn Gregorian Chant. Will not happen!. It’s a lost cause, that unfortunately means either no church or move on to a schismatic church. I have no other alternatives. I’m not going to quit my job so I can get a job with a better schedule so I can attend a TLM 40 miles away. I’m plain out of luck. Maybe I’ll just stay home and pray the mass out of my new 1962 missal on Sundays and follow the EF calendar. Seems like my only option till a TLM is offered near me. Maybe their is a TLM I can watch on the internet every Sunday and feast day streaming.

 

[goofyjim]

Folks, there may be liturgical abuses out there but please stop treating the NO as if it is a liturgical abuse in and of itself. If done properly it isn’t. And if you are going to refuse the Eucharist just because of a change in the Mass then I seriously question the devotion to begin with. All those pictures were outside events. They did not give any indication that there was anything wrong going on at the Mass.