Threadbare Masses?

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“Liturgical movement,” huh?

I wonder if that’s anything like the movement of my breakfast as it abruptly reverses its forward path in reaction to the phrase “liturgical movement”? 😛
 
Karl Keating:
Why do I miss out on all the good opportunities? Had I known about that parish, I would have positioned myself in the front pew, right at the middle aisle. At the start of the consecration I would have noisily dropped the kneeler and gone onto my knees, giving the priest a little smile. :whistle:
Could this be true? Did Karl use a smilie?

If it would get you to my parish free of charge I’d ask everyone to stand so you could drop the kneeler. Don’t think anyone else in the parish would take me seriously. They’d join you in a heartbeat. Which is as it should be. :yup:
 
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BryanW:
The worst was being told, get this… “As a sign of unity I ask everyone to remain standing during the consecration.” .
At my parish, they don’t even ask us to remain standing anymore. I thought it was part of the GIRM. Everyone looks at me funny when I drop to my knees, unless they looked relieved and drop to theirs too.
 
MaryPetra said:
“Liturgical movement,” huh?

I wonder if that’s anything like the movement of my breakfast as it abruptly reverses its forward path in reaction to the phrase “liturgical movement”? 😛

Both likely share some of the same qualities…
 
QUOTE]

Why do I miss out on all the good opportunities? Had I known about that parish, I would have positioned myself in the front pew, right at the middle aisle. At the start of the consecration I would have noisily dropped the kneeler and gone onto my knees, giving the priest a little smile. :whistle:

Well this was a few years ago and in those day’s I hadn’t yet listened much to CA. I did know enough to pray and fast about the subject, the Priest in question has since been transferred.

These day’s I’m much more of a Catholic Klingon (My term see definition below)

Catholic Klingon - Any Catholic that Boldly proclaims his/her faith, defends the Catholic Church with vigor, and accepts all teachings of his/her Church with or without understanding them. They thrive on being persecuted for all these things.
 
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MaryPetra:
We have a liturgical dancer!

She dances every year at our First Communion Mass, wearing a white silk blouse, a calf-length black skirt, and black ballet slippers. Last year she just went through the nave of the church in a series of lunging stag-leaps, flinging her arms around with abandon and making sudden and inexplicable stops to strike a tortured pose.
Each year the beginning of August, our parish starts its preparations for out Patron Saint Feast. The pastor includes this (para)phrase in the announcement, Liturgical dancing is not allowed.

I always wondered why he had to say that. I mean, call me naive, but I had no idea that this type of abuse existed (or was so wide spread). I thought it had gone out with the temple of Jupiter. I couldn’t figure out what he was talking about.

And then I saw a video tape of a liturgical dance. Obscene would be a mild description of it.
 
David Ancell’s post is right on the point.

Mass liturgy in my parish is treated as a totally inside job. We have Mass-nazis who make sure the Mass is dumbed down to an 8-year-old level. It goes without saying that everything optional in the Mass is dropped (no “I Confess” for example).

I haven’t heard anybody in these forums talk about “altar dressers” – we have people assigned, like lectors and Eucharistic ministers – to drape the altar with a cloth just before the Offertory and to remove the cloth after Communion. I see no symbolism or purpose in this, but the Mass-nazis are in control.
 
I’m certainly overjoyed to hear that there are others whom I consider to be good Catholics that have finally said, “ENOUGH!”

The most dreaded words I can hear are: “We do this in the spirit of Vatican II.” They are proven guilty beyond any doubt when I hear that statement.

We Catholics who were adults before these changes started 40 years ago were raised to complete obedience to the wishes of the priest, the nun, the pastor, the bishops. We were dumbfounded as they changed evrything about the Mass. The overall has almost no relationship to the 1962 Missal. The Novus Ordo is licit, but completely different. Even the nomenclature for almost everything was changed. Every step along the highway of changes has reduced the awe, the mystery, the adoration that was present in the old Mass. The new Mass has reduced belief in the Real Presence from above 90% to below 20%

Enough is enough. I do not stand during the Consecration. I do stand for the singing of the Pater Noster, but I go back onto my knees at the Agnus Dei (except for going up to Communion) and would remain until after the Purificatio (but there is no Purification), so I remain on my knees until the priest says, “Let us pray.” I would not obey even the pope if he told me to desecrate the Blessed Sacrament, and I will not come off my knees for any bishop for the “ridiculous” appeal for uniformity. If he wants uniformity, then let him ask for the posture which is the most reverent and the most common for centuries, on our knees.
 
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GeorgeCooney:
I’m certainly overjoyed to hear that there are others whom I consider to be good Catholics that have finally said, “ENOUGH!”

The most dreaded words I can hear are: “We do this in the spirit of Vatican II.” They are proven guilty beyond any doubt when I hear that statement.

We Catholics who were adults before these changes started 40 years ago were raised to complete obedience to the wishes of the priest, the nun, the pastor, the bishops. We were dumbfounded as they changed evrything about the Mass. The overall has almost no relationship to the 1962 Missal. The Novus Ordo is licit, but completely different. Even the nomenclature for almost everything was changed. Every step along the highway of changes has reduced the awe, the mystery, the adoration that was present in the old Mass. The new Mass has reduced belief in the Real Presence from above 90% to below 20%

Enough is enough. I do not stand during the Consecration. I do stand for the singing of the Pater Noster, but I go back onto my knees at the Agnus Dei (except for going up to Communion) and would remain until after the Purificatio (but there is no Purification), so I remain on my knees until the priest says, “Let us pray.” I would not obey even the pope if he told me to desecrate the Blessed Sacrament, and I will not come off my knees for any bishop for the “ridiculous” appeal for uniformity. If he wants uniformity, then let him ask for the posture which is the most reverent and the most common for centuries, on our knees.
I can empathize with your strong feelings for the most part.

I don’t think the Novus Ordo Mass has anything to do with the drastically reduced belief in the Real Presence though. I think it has far more to do with horrible or non-existant catechesis over the past 2-3 generations.

Dominus Tecum.
 
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Crusader:
I can empathize with your strong feelings for the most part.

I don’t think the Novus Ordo Mass has anything to do with the drastically reduced belief in the Real Presence though. I think it has far more to do with horrible or non-existant catechesis over the past 2-3 generations.

Dominus Tecum.
Dear Dominus Tecum:

I disagree with you that the Novus Ordo has nothing to do with the reduced belief in the Real Presence. I would agree that it alone is not all of the cause, but it plays a major part. I do agree, however, that the laxity and disorganization allowed in the Novus Ordo is found also in not only the catechesis of the laity, but more importantly in the seminaries, which is now progressed all the way to episcopates and beyond.

It seems that all who wish that the so-called “Tridentine Mass” was still with us are accused from time to time of just being nostalgic. They are wrong for the most part, but I believe it is their lack of experience with both the “Tridentine” and the Novus Ordo.. The *Novus Ordo * has almost no firm structure, which allows and promotes deviations, experimentation, and their disasterous results. What made it even worse was the cave-in of the Holy See to the wide-spread disobediance to the requirement to retain the Latin. However, even with the Latin the allowed variations are tantamount to lackl of control. As even Pope Paul VI admitted, the smoke of satan has entered the Church. Then the wide-spread disobedience concerning “Communion in the hand” and the subsequent cave-in of the Holy See started a full-volume death-knell for belief in the Real Presence

The Mass which was revived and codified by Pope Saint Pius V in 1570 was fixed firm and steady. As I reported elsewhere in my postings, I was taught to use the Missal in the early 1940’s by the nuns, who remarked that we could take this English-Latin Missal to any Roman Catholic Church in the world and follow every rubric and every word except for the sermon and local announcements. There was no worry about properly assisting at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even the rubrics performed by the priest wwere fixed. For every part of the Mass his position, his posture, his facing direction, the use of his hands were fixed world-wide. It’s rare that you can find two Masses in the same parish that are the same. My archbishop brags that we have Masses in 35 languages here. What kind of unity is that; that’s segregation big-time. I pity those who have to travel on business to foreign countries, other than English-speaking. With neither the language nor the rubrics being consistent how do you concentrate on the Sacrifice. You will spend all your time trying to figure out where the priest is in the Mass. I experienced that myself when I was forced to go to an all-Spanish parish for Mass on a Holy Day.

The rules of conduct in Church were conducive to respect and adoration toward the Blessed Sacrament. The nomenclature was familiar and specific. Today we hear so many generics you have to listen a while to determine what is meant. “Literature” was a generic term to cover any and every ceremony and prayer the Church had from a Novena to the Holy Sacrifice. Today we hear, I’m going to “Eucharist.” The Blessed Sacrament was the Holy Eucharist, the most important of the seven Sacraments. Mass was the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in its shortened form.

The vestments were fixed and universal, although there were some minor variations in the designs of the chasuable. Churches were designed to accomodate the fixed rituals of that Mass. It is not nostalgia that generates a desire to recover that Mass and that discipline. It is a desire to enter a Catholic Church and to assist at Mass and feel that I am in the House of God and to be allowed through the environment therein to concentrate on the reality of being present through a suspension of time at the foot of the Cross at Calvary.
 
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GeorgeCooney:
Crusader:

I disagree with you that the Novus Ordo has nothing to do with the reduced belief in the Real Presence. I would agree that it alone is not all of the cause, but it plays a major part. I do agree, however, that the laxity and disorganization allowed in the Novus Ordo is found also in not only the catechesis of the laity, but more importantly in the seminaries, which is now progressed all the way to episcopates and beyond.
The Novus Ordo Mass is every bit as tight as the Tridentine Mass. It’s up to the celebrant to follow the rubrics of the Mass documented in the GIRM and the Sacramentary.
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GeorgeCooney:
It seems that all who wish that the so-called “Tridentine Mass” was still with us are accused from time to time of just being nostalgic. They are wrong for the most part, but I believe it is their lack of experience with both the “Tridentine” and the Novus Ordo.. The *Novus Ordo *has almost no firm structure, which allows and promotes deviations, experimentation, and their disasterous results. What made it even worse was the cave-in of the Holy See to the wide-spread disobediance to the requirement to retain the Latin. However, even with the Latin the allowed variations are tantamount to lackl of control. As even Pope Paul VI admitted, the smoke of satan has entered the Church. Then the wide-spread disobedience concerning “Communion in the hand” and the subsequent cave-in of the Holy See started a full-volume death-knell for belief in the Real Presence
Nonsense. While the Novus Ordo Mass does allow options (different Eucharistic Prayers, etc.) it does not “promote” abuse.
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GeorgeCooney:
The Mass which was revived and codified by Pope Saint Pius V in 1570 was fixed firm and steady. As I reported elsewhere in my postings, I was taught to use the Missal in the early 1940’s by the nuns, who remarked that we could take this English-Latin Missal to any Roman Catholic Church in the world and follow every rubric and every word except for the sermon and local announcements. There was no worry about properly assisting at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even the rubrics performed by the priest wwere fixed. For every part of the Mass his position, his posture, his facing direction, the use of his hands were fixed world-wide. It’s rare that you can find two Masses in the same parish that are the same. My archbishop brags that we have Masses in 35 languages here. What kind of unity is that; that’s segregation big-time. I pity those who have to travel on business to foreign countries, other than English-speaking. With neither the language nor the rubrics being consistent how do you concentrate on the Sacrifice. You will spend all your time trying to figure out where the priest is in the Mass. I experienced that myself when I was forced to go to an all-Spanish parish for Mass on a Holy Day.
Rubrics of the Mass still exist. Take a close look at a Sacramentary sometime.
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GeorgeCooney:
The rules of conduct in Church were conducive to respect and adoration toward the Blessed Sacrament. The nomenclature was familiar and specific. Today we hear so many generics you have to listen a while to determine what is meant. “Literature” was a generic term to cover any and every ceremony and prayer the Church had from a Novena to the Holy Sacrifice. Today we hear, I’m going to “Eucharist.” The Blessed Sacrament was the Holy Eucharist, the most important of the seven Sacraments. Mass was the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in its shortened form.
So? This has more to do with generational changes (many negative) and the demands of the pastor than anything else.
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GeorgeCooney:
The vestments were fixed and universal, although there were some minor variations in the designs of the chasuable. Churches were designed to accomodate the fixed rituals of that Mass. It is not nostalgia that generates a desire to recover that Mass and that discipline. It is a desire to enter a Catholic Church and to assist at Mass and feel that I am in the House of God and to be allowed through the environment therein to concentrate on the reality of being present through a suspension of time at the foot of the Cross at Calvary.
The vestments are just as “fixed” today, and the chausables no longer look like bulletproof vests from the front, thanks be to God.

I apologize is I come off as non-caring. The adoption of the NO Mass is simply not the reason for all the (real) ills you list. NO Masses can be extremely solemn – watch EWTN for instance.

The Tridentine Mass is not silver bullet. They had liturigical abuses before Vatican Council II, but perhaps they were rarer. It wasn’t due to the Mass – it was likely due to fewer dissident bishops and priests.
 
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BryanW:
QUOTE]
These day’s I’m much more of a Catholic Klingon (My term see definition below)

Catholic Klingon - Any Catholic that Boldly proclaims his/her faith, defends the Catholic Church with vigor, and accepts all teachings of his/her Church with or without understanding them. They thrive on being persecuted for all these things.
So that’s what we’re called. Glad to know it. :clapping:

Seriously, though. My parish (and most of my diocesis (except for the parish I used to go to)) is quite orthodox. Our pastor forbids liturgical dancing, we are expected to kneel both for the concecration and after reception of the Holy Eucharist (no standing unless you are physically unable to kneel), and we have sort of a “dress code”. Every week, the bulletin includes a notice that is also found on all church/chapel doors and on the parish bulletin board (in the office). A translated paraphrase (and quite short) might read: My house is a house of prayer. Please dress appropriately when you come to visit me. Do not wear miniskirts, low cut dresses, short pants (and goes on from there).

My brother claims I’m lucky. I just think I’ve been blessed with a good bishop and pastor. Almost all the liturgical abuse I’ve seen in this diocesis has been in a neighboring parish (run by Passionists). The parishes that have diocesan priests are much more orthodox.
 
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DrCat:
So that’s what we’re called. Glad to know it. :clapping:

Seriously, though. My parish (and most of my diocesis (except for the parish I used to go to)) is quite orthodox. Our pastor forbids liturgical dancing, we are expected to kneel both for the concecration and after reception of the Holy Eucharist (no standing unless you are physically unable to kneel), and we have sort of a “dress code”. Every week, the bulletin includes a notice that is also found on all church/chapel doors and on the parish bulletin board (in the office). A translated paraphrase (and quite short) might read: My house is a house of prayer. Please dress appropriately when you come to visit me. Do not wear miniskirts, low cut dresses, short pants (and goes on from there).

My brother claims I’m lucky. I just think I’ve been blessed with a good bishop and pastor. Almost all the liturgical abuse I’ve seen in this diocesis has been in a neighboring parish (run by Passionists). The parishes that have diocesan priests are much more orthodox.
God bless your pastor.
 
We have many post-conciliar “spirits” at my parish as well. I’ve come to the conclusion that the local political climate tends to contribute to the level of reverence expected at Mass. We are very protestant in our Catholic “services” (as refered to during the many intrusive pre-mass announcements).

The problem with our various liturgical directors also seems to be internal church politics. As legend has it a female lay “pastoral associate” at our parish was actually able to rid the parish of a priest. In all fairness this was probably advisable at the time. However, since that time her preceived or actual power has risen to astonishing levels. Combined with her tendecy to heterodoxy, this breeds timid or less than reverent liturgical directors.

Such is the life of a conservative Catholic in a liberal region of the country.
 
Nick L.:
We have many post-conciliar “spirits” at my parish as well. I’ve come to the conclusion that the local political climate tends to contribute to the level of reverence expected at Mass. We are very protestant in our Catholic “services” (as refered to during the many intrusive pre-mass announcements).

The problem with our various liturgical directors also seems to be internal church politics. As legend has it a female lay “pastoral associate” at our parish was actually able to rid the parish of a priest. In all fairness this was probably advisable at the time. However, since that time her preceived or actual power has risen to astonishing levels. Combined with her tendecy to heterodoxy, this breeds timid or less than reverent liturgical directors.

Such is the life of a conservative Catholic in a liberal region of the country.
Egads, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not merely a “service.”

It sounds like that heterodox clerk needs to be taken down a peg or two…

What’s a “liurgical director?” I thought that was the priest’s job…
 
When I was pre-school-age, I was as wiggly as the next kid – but I stopped, looked, and listened in rapt attention at the Consecration. Why? One of the altar boys played notes on a small xylophone at the elevations. I didn’t fully understand what was going on, but I couldn’t wait to serve, just so I could do that, too!

Wouldn’tcha know it? By the time I was old enough, our Pastor had switched to bells. Shoot.

Anyway, in our parish here on the Left Coast, we don’t even have bells. No sound at all. Not a peep. Heaven forbid we should pretend there’s anything important going on up there :rolleyes:
 
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MaryPetra:
At my parish, much is done in – or maybe I should say isn’t done – “the spirit of Vatican II.”

No bells, no incense, no candle-bearers, no nothing.

But I’ll tell you what we do have. It’s so exciting.

We have a liturgical dancer!

She dances every year at our First Communion Mass, wearing a white silk blouse, a calf-length black skirt, and black ballet slippers. Last year she just went through the nave of the church in a series of lunging stag-leaps, flinging her arms around with abandon and making sudden and inexplicable stops to strike a tortured pose.

This year, she accompanied herself with a very long ribbon attached to a wooden handle – the kind of thing gymnasts use. The dancer was whipping the ribbon over the heads of the congregants, some of whom were fighting a losing battle with those perilous bursts of snorting church laughter; some of whom looked bored; and some of whom looked like they’d like to take that ribbon and tie her up like a mummy and hide her in a closet.

Frankly, it really frosts my donuts that we aren’t allowed to have the bells, but we are forced to have this dancer prancing around as our little communicants goggle at her and ask in piercing whispers, “Dad? Does that lady have to go to the bathroom?”
Next time tell her she can’t have John’s head on a platter.

Justin
 
when I go on retreat the daily Mass is quiet and “threadbare”, singing is a capella, rubrics are followed precisely, without additions and innovations, it is beautiful, sacred, and the Presence of the Lord is allowed to shine forth in His Glory undiminished. I love it.
 
Wow!
Unfortunately, the replies indicate that you are not alone.
My solution was to start attending a Byzantine Rite Church. The liturgy there is truly ethereal and most edifying. I really appreciate not being subjected to constant distractions by performers and instrumental music throughout the Mass, and that awful applause when the choir takes their accustomed bows. We participate with many bows, the sign of the cross is made about a hundred times, no communion in the hand, and we stand for most of the liturgy to represent the Risen Christ. There is no holding or shaking hands, most of the Mass is sung and a cantor leads the singing. After the liturgy, the parishioners meet for refreshments in the nearby SOCIAL HALL.
Although I have yet to switch churches, I jokingly say that I am going to “convert” to the eastern rite.
In Christ,
Guglielmotti
 
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