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alfredo
Guest
What then would be the analogy between the three branches of Catholicism, Judaism and Episcopalianism?
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alfredo
Guest
Well, let’s see. As a “symbolic gesture”? the excommunication against the Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius was lifted by the RCC about one thousand years after it was put into effect. (I guess it was a mutual lifting). And during this time the schism hardened to the point where some Orthodox say that the Sacraments (including Baptism) of the RCC are invalid. So the Vatican could wait another one thousand years, and after that thousand years has passed, and after the position of those in the SSPX had hardened, it could then lift the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre as a symbolic gesture. Another alternative would be not to wait, but to try to heal the schism at this time and to make the symbolic gesture of lifitng the excommunications now and to make every effort to work together in a spirit of charity and understanding.
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alfredo
Guest
The Anglican Church is falling apart?
It looks to me like after Vatican II, the Catholic Church is having it share of problems. For example, various estimates and reports from Catholic seminaries indicate that the percentage of homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood has increased since Vatican II.
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Ghosty
Guest
Actually, Orthodox Jews don’t consider Reform Jews to be Jewish at all, and I believe they feel the same way about Conservative Jews, with a bit less disgust. I have a Jewish friend who has some ultra-Orthodox relatives in Israel who haven’t even told their kids that Reform Jews exist. The split between Reform and Orthodox Jews is so great that they barely even exist under the same religious heading; it’s only the outside lack of understanding of Judaism that forces them together. It would be like calling Unitarians “low-church” Catholics.
I also want to point out that the Church didn’t cut off its Traditionalist wing. One can still attend Tridentine Mass and participate fully in a Traditionalist setting within the Catholic Church. It’s only a particular sect of Traditionalists who seperated themselves from the Church out of pride and arrogance.
I also want to point out that the Church didn’t cut off its Traditionalist wing. One can still attend Tridentine Mass and participate fully in a Traditionalist setting within the Catholic Church. It’s only a particular sect of Traditionalists who seperated themselves from the Church out of pride and arrogance.
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alfredo
Guest
There are ultra Traditional Catholic groups that have a similar opinion of the Catholic Church today. For example:
traditio.com
or
truecatholic.org
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Irenicist
Guest
And what exactly do you expect the SSPX to do in response to this lifting of the excommunications? Accept Vatican II integrally and reintegrate the Church? So all this schism was really about was giving pointy hats to four episcopal wannabees?
I think it would be wiser to let this schism end via demographic attrition than reward obstinate rebellion. The alternative is to offer license to any dissident bishops to start ordaining at will confident the Church will just roll over and accomodate them in the end. It’s a mug’s game, and the Church would be foolish to play it.
Irenicist
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alfredo
Guest
I heard that the SSPX was increasing slightly to moderately and not suffering from attrition.
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Irenicist
Guest
I see. And how exactly did these “various estimates and reports from Catholic seminaries” (precise citations would be nice) come to an authoritative reading of the incidence of homosexuality in the clergy in the 50s? Did postulants back then tick off “gay” on some application form?
I’m sorry, but I’m going to back out of this discussion. I don’t see how it could be pursued productively any further.
Irenicist
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Ghosty
Guest
The radical Traditionalists don’t represent the Church at all, as they have removed themselves from it; they are a splinter sect. They also represent a TINY minority of people. Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, are an ANCIENT category that predates Reform and Conservative, and represent the majority of observant (as opposed to biological) Jews.
The Reform splintered off of Orthodox, not the other way around. Orthodox is and has always been the norm.
The Reform splintered off of Orthodox, not the other way around. Orthodox is and has always been the norm.
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alfredo
Guest
You might try reading the book by Michael Rose.
And for a survey of what has been happening to Catholicism after Vatican II, you might try reading " The Catholic Revolution," by Andrew Greeley, or the book by Fr. Donald Cozzens, “The Changing face of the priesthood.” or the article in the November 10, 1989 issue of the Catholic Reporter entitled “Bishops paralysed over heavily gay priesthood.”
You brought up the issue of the Anglican Church falling apart. Some Catholics point to the staggering increase in the annulment rate from about 10 per year in the 1930’s in the USA to about 50,000 per year in the USA after Vatican II, the declining attendance at Sunday Mass (which has led to the closure of Churches in the Boston area), the decline in the number of vocations, etc., to support their claim that the Catholic Church has had its share of problems since Vatican II.
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Ghosty
Guest
The falling apart of the Anglican Church has more to do with orthodoxy than membership. The Anglican Church is under attack from within, and is losing its hold on points that it previously held were unchangable. That they are losing members at the same time is merely incidental.
The Catholic Church is losing members, but has not shaken in orthodoxy, and therefore is holding very strong.
The Catholic Church is losing members, but has not shaken in orthodoxy, and therefore is holding very strong.
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SouthCoast
Guest
Amen, amen, amen!
To be Orthodox Catholic means to follow the teachings of the Church. If anything, the SSPX’ers are more comparable to the “reformed” Jews, who have re-written the law for their own purposes. Or perhaps to Protestants, who figure they can just rearrange things to their own comfort level, rather than follow specific teachings.
-Michael
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alfredo
Guest
There was an article on page B2 of the April 16, 2005 edition of the Los Angeles Times according to which a Catholic seminarian Graham Greene, was listed as one of the 550 who had filed lawsuits in 2003 against the diocese for sex abuse, which occurred at the seminary of the Archdiocese, St. John’s Catholic Seminary in Camarillo. It turns out that he is now an Anglican cleric in the Traditional wing of the Anglican Church and held a service at the Church of Our Savior in Los Angeles. According to the article, the Anglican Traditional service (with faithful responding in Latin) was attended by other survivors. One of the ex-Catholic survivors said that he felt extremely welcomed.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
There is one Catholicism: orthodox.
‘Liberal.’ ‘Convervative,’ and so on are inapplicable attributions. Anything which is not orthodox Catholicism is heterodoxy which is, by definition, not Catholicism.
‘Liberal.’ ‘Convervative,’ and so on are inapplicable attributions. Anything which is not orthodox Catholicism is heterodoxy which is, by definition, not Catholicism.
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Ghosty
Guest
Relevance factor of zero in relation to the quote of mine you used. Show me what this has to do with orthodoxy within the Anglican Communion.
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alfredo
Guest
The article might be relevant to the question of Traditional or “high church” Anglicanism and what is happening to it. Mention was made that Anglicanism was falling apart. The article gives an example of a Catholic seminarian who is suing the diocese because of abuse at the Catholic seminary, and mentions that he has become a cleric in the Traditional wing of the Anglican Church. It further goes on to give examples of Catholic survivors who feel comfortable at this Traditional Anglican service. In other words, although it was said in this thread that Anglicanism was falling apart, there are reports of Catholics who recently suffered sexual abuse by the hand of a Catholic priests, and they were able to find solace and comfort in the Anglican Church, but not in the Catholic Church.
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