Three Eastern questions

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Howdy! I’m a cradle RC married to a Greek Catholic, and we both go to a Latin Mass parish, but our home devotional life is much more Eastern- (ie, icon-) centered. I sometimes feel tempted to convert to Orthodoxy, for a few reasons, but I am very strongly pro-life and abhor contraception, and I also could not commune with a church that allows divorce, so I wouldn’t ever toe the line really. It’s kind of a “grass is greener” thing maybe. The Novus Ordo depresses me and I feel like there is a certain beautiful freedom to the lack of systematic, centralized, dogmatic catechesis in Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism (though I also wonder whether that lack of centralization and resulting lack of legislative/teaching consistency might make me crazy, lol).

So… I have three questions about the golden middle, ECism:
  1. Generally, where do ECs fall on the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Are they bound to it the way RCs are? Maybe that’s a stupid question, but I’m hoping the answer is no, because I am finding that I am having some real issues with RC doctrine of original sin… which leads me to…
  2. So, where do ECs fall on original sin? How does it differ from full-out Orthodoxy? I only yesterday learned how very different the Orthodox understanding of the Fall and its results, and the importance of Baptism, and all of that is, as original sin is absent. It endears me (in part because I just had a miscarriage and it pushed me to really examine how much or little sense I see in the RC position).
  3. On Eastern Canon Law - my main question is, is there a Sunday obligation, like RCs are bound to? I am feeling really burdened by the Sunday obligation - I love love love Holy Communion, I love prayer, but I hate that the bottom line is that attendance is a duty - it tends to dominate my approach. Especially since having a baby (who’s almost 2 now) I’ve come to realize just how hard it will be to attend Mass as an open-to-life family for the next 20 years or whatever.
 
Howdy! I’m a cradle RC married to a Greek Catholic, and we both go to a Latin Mass parish, but our home devotional life is much more Eastern- (ie, icon-) centered. I sometimes feel tempted to convert to Orthodoxy, for a few reasons, but I am very strongly pro-life and abhor contraception, and I also could not commune with a church that allows divorce, so I wouldn’t ever toe the line really.
I would strongly advice you to speak to an Orthodox priest about their beliefs regarding these things you have outlined. This is not me egging you to convert to Orthodoxy, but at least we owe them that we do not misrepresent their stance on pro-life issues (they are staunchly pro-life, I can guarantee you that) and how they view contraception and divorce.
It’s kind of a “grass is greener” thing maybe. The Novus Ordo depresses me and I feel like there is a certain beautiful freedom to the lack of systematic, centralized, dogmatic catechesis in Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism (though I also wonder whether that lack of centralization and resulting lack of legislative/teaching consistency might make me crazy, lol).
If you want to go anywhere, make sure you take time to discern. Don’t jump in. The honeymoon period would make you feel like you made the right decision, but after the honeymoon is over and reality smacks you in the face, that is when you really know if you made the right decision.
So… I have three questions about the golden middle, ECism:
  1. Generally, where do ECs fall on the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Are they bound to it the way RCs are? Maybe that’s a stupid question, but I’m hoping the answer is no, because I am finding that I am having some real issues with RC doctrine of original sin… which leads me to…
Nobody is boudn to the Catechism, even the RCs. The Catechism is a book of catechesis, not doctrine and dogma.
  1. So, where do ECs fall on original sin? How does it differ from full-out Orthodoxy? I only yesterday learned how very different the Orthodox understanding of the Fall and its results, and the importance of Baptism, and all of that is, as original sin is absent. It endears me (in part because I just had a miscarriage and it pushed me to really examine how much or little sense I see in the RC position).
The idea is to be fully what the Orthodox believe. However don’t be surprised if a lot of Latin elements have come into a particular community. Things evolve and Latin theology being the dominant tradition, there is a lot of influence on the Eastern Catholic Churches. This influence is exerted both intentionally and unintentionally.
  1. On Eastern Canon Law - my main question is, is there a Sunday obligation, like RCs are bound to? I am feeling really burdened by the Sunday obligation - I love love love Holy Communion, I love prayer, but I hate that the bottom line is that attendance is a duty - it tends to dominate my approach. Especially since having a baby (who’s almost 2 now) I’ve come to realize just how hard it will be to attend Mass as an open-to-life family for the next 20 years or whatever.
We do not see Sunday as a duty. But ECs will have canons as mandated by the CCEO and they will spell out “Days of Obligation” there. The Eastern Catholic Churches are not the Orthodox Church, they are Catholic Churches. Do expect them to be more like the Roman Catholic Church in many aspects than the Orthodox Church.
 
Thanks for the reply, Constantine! I’d just disagree with…
Nobody is bound to the Catechism, even the RCs. The Catechism is a book of catechesis, not doctrine and dogma.
While it’s true that the CCC does not enjoy the authority and degree of bindingness that Scripture and the Councils do, or as being ex cathedra teaching, my understanding is that they are very much a part of the ordinary magisterium of the Church, and as such must be accepted by the faithful except in cases of grave doubt about consistency with tradition or reason. I am quite comfortable with this kind of disagreement; as I mentioned, we go to the Latin Mass, and many Trads find themselves needing to disagree with parts of the catechism or at least many current pastoral decisions of the hierarchy in order to keep their sanity…

HOWEVER, the Immaculate Conception was defined and defended pretty explicitly ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX, and the bull really takes for granted/requires the current Latin understanding of Original Sin. … So I guess when I put it that way, I’m not even sure how I would hope to be free of the weight of RC belief in original sin, as the text states that it must be accepted by all Catholics. … lol, maybe I can just argue that I agree the BVM was conceived w/o Original Sin, but add mentally that so was everybody else? I don’t know, it’s very confusing. The RC redaction of the Fall and the result of concupiscence makes a lot of sense to me and seems very consistent with Romans, but guilt for Original Sin, as barring people from Heaven, is starting to seem absurd to me. Where that puts me on the EC/Ortho spectrum I’m not sure.
 
Thanks for the reply, Constantine! I’d just disagree with…
I don’t really see how you disagree with that. As ConstantineTG said, the CCC is for catechesis. Think of it as an instruction manual for understanding the faith. It simply explains in layman’s terms the faith and understanding of the Catholic Church on a plethora of topics. As such, many of the underlying dogmas and doctrines *are *binding while the explanation itself (as presented in the CCC) may not be. The CCC is an exposition of Catholic faith, not the Catholic faith itself.

Hope that makes sense.
 
I don’t really see how you disagree with that. As ConstantineTG said, the CCC is for catechesis. Think of it as an instruction manual for understanding the faith. It simply explains in layman’s terms the faith and understanding of the Catholic Church on a plethora of topics. As such, many of the underlying dogmas and doctrines *are *binding while the explanation itself (as presented in the CCC) may not be. The CCC is an exposition of Catholic faith, not the Catholic faith itself.

Hope that makes sense.
Hmm alright, I get that distinction. But at the end of the day, doesn’t it come to the same thing? If the CCC expounds the dogma of the church, and in reading it I comprehend the dogma explained, then am I not bound by the ordinary magisterium to accept that dogma, barring grave doubt about its integrity? That is what I have always understood - would you argue, in contrast, that the only texts we are truly bound to are the Scriptures & Councils?
 
Howdy! I’m a cradle RC married to a Greek Catholic, and we both go to a Latin Mass parish, but our home devotional life is much more Eastern- (ie, icon-) centered. I sometimes feel tempted to convert to Orthodoxy, for a few reasons,
I’d be happy to attempt to offer some perspective, but would like to first ask for some clarity on your opening statement.

If you are Catholic (and seem to hold rather Catholic views), and your husband is also Catholic (Greek Catholic, more precisely), why would you be considering a jump to Orthodoxy?

If you feel that you may be more spiritually enriched by the East, why not start by exploring your husbands faith heritage?

If we may ask, what Greek Catholic tradition and is there a church nearby?
 
I’ll start (speculatively) with your question on Original Sin. It seems as if you have been exposed to some view of the Orthodox position on Ancestral Sin. That exposure may also have been at a particularly vulnerable point for you (I am truly sorry to have read of your loss). So first, a step back.

There is a fundamental dilemma that all Eastern Catholics have to wrestle with, and it is at the heart of your search for answers, as well. We are called to be fully Catholic and fully Eastern, that is, true to our Orthodox roots. We cannot reject Catholic dogma because we are Eastern. Rather, we have to come to understand it from our own theological perspective and reconcile it, as such. Challenging? Yes. Impossible? No.

On Original Sin, the Western perspective tends to be one of fault, or guilt, inherent to sin. Yet, how can an innocent be guilt of commission? Yet, we are descendants of the fallen Adam and Eve, and thus our basic human condition and our very relationship with God was forever changed. Created in His image and likeness, we must now be restored to our original state of grace in order to be reconciled to our Creator. It is the prospect of eternal death that we have inherited, not guilt in the classic sense. This is the notion of Ancestral Sin, which is inherent to our human condition and not a consequence of our own personal actions. Either way, it is through Baptism that we are freed and reconciled to God, made possible by the Passion and Resurrection of Christ our Savior and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
ConstantineTG
Regular Member
Originally Posted by birdsofdawn
So… I have three questions about the golden middle, ECism:
  1. Generally, where do ECs fall on the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Are they bound to it the way RCs are? Maybe that’s a stupid question, but I’m hoping the answer is no, because I am finding that I am having some real issues with RC doctrine of original sin… which leads me to…
Nobody is boudn to the Catechism, even the RCs. The Catechism is a book of catechesis, not doctrine and dogma.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM
ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL
JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY
3. The Doctrinal Value of the Text
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.
This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine.
 
I’d be happy to attempt to offer some perspective, but would like to first ask for some clarity on your opening statement.

If you are Catholic (and seem to hold rather Catholic views), and your husband is also Catholic (Greek Catholic, more precisely), why would you be considering a jump to Orthodoxy?

If you feel that you may be more spiritually enriched by the East, why not start by exploring your husbands faith heritage?

If we may ask, what Greek Catholic tradition and is there a church nearby?
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful replies.

To answer your question, the Greek rite is extremely small - it has just over 2,000 members and Greek-Catholic churches exist only in Greece and Turkey - not to be confused with the aggregate of churches called “Greek” including Greek-Melkite and so on - my husband was baptized Greek Orthodox, because of his father’s family, and was received into the Catholic Church as an adult, making him a pure Greek-Greek Catholic. But as I said, there are no parishes in North-America, and so he is under the jurisdiction of the Latin patriarch.

We do have a Greek Orthodox church very close by, a few blocks away, that we go to from time to time when we feel we can.

I’d be considering this jump yes, primarily to be enriched and nourished by the Eastern traditions and liturgy. Liturgy is a huge, huge part of our lives. The Novus Ordo of the Roman rite causes is real sorrow (sorry to any NO-devotees). But even the very best and purest Latin Mass still doesn’t have the richness of iconography, which is really important to us. Our home altar is dominated by icons we’ve inherited, though we also have Western images and statues at home.

I suppose I want to be able to give myself permission to be not Latin and Roman. There are a few Eastern Catholic churches in our city - we visited one years ago, hoping we’d find a home there, but it was sort of awful, really influenced by the bad stuff in RC churches (altar girls!!!). We’re going to visit a Melkite church in the next few weeks, but we don’t know Arabic, so that’ll take some getting used to. I suppose once we get a car, and/or move to a city with an amazing Eastern parish community things will feel easier.

I am just feeling really burdened right now with the Sunday obligation, given that we either have to white-knuckle it and fight waves of despair the whole time (Novus Ordo) or at best we feel somewhat alienated/not at home with the Latin Mass (and I have a toddler so I don’t even get to spend that much time in the church proper). I suppose if I’m honest that’s a big part of where my motivation is coming from.

On another forum, somebody shared the Council of Jerusalem 1672 with me - the parts about Baptism and Original Sin are quite enlightening! Since the Orthodox churches accept that council I am really puzzled actually at how/why they don’t agree with the RC view of OS. I’ll have to read more from an actual Orthodox website or something.
 
Thanks, Lancer; I knew there was something pretty definite within the text itself that makes it at least seem binding! I suppose skeptics would say it’s a bit circular but I think I’m comfortable agreeing with what I’d guess your position is; that we are more or less bound to the CCC.
 
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful replies.
A pleasure!
To answer your question, the Greek rite is extremely small - it has just over 2,000 members and Greek-Catholic churches exist only in Greece and Turkey - not to be confused with the aggregate of churches called “Greek” including Greek-Melkite and so on - my husband was baptized Greek Orthodox, because of his father’s family, and was received into the Catholic Church as an adult, making him a pure Greek-Greek Catholic. But as I said, there are no parishes in North-America, and so he is under the jurisdiction of the Latin patriarch.
I understand - a real “Greek” Catholic! Surely a challenge here in the U.S.
On another forum, somebody shared the Council of Jerusalem 1672 with me - the parts about Baptism and Original Sin are quite enlightening! Since the Orthodox churches accept that council I am really puzzled actually at how/why they don’t agree with the RC view of OS. I’ll have to read more from an actual Orthodox website or something.
I offered some thoughts on Original Sin vs. Ancestral Sin which is hopefully consistent with what you have read elsewhere.
 
Wow, a really long blog post about EO on OS, very enlightening: razilazenje.blogspot.ca/2006/03/original-sin-in-eastern-orthodox.html

It seems that the common Orthodox view, at least online, that there is no original sin in the sense of the sin of Adam imparting actual guilt to all humans, which is cleansed in Baptism, is definitely an error even within the Orthodox universe. I wonder when it became such a widespread error?

Am still not sure what happens to miscarried babies… sigh.

Or how to get the nourishing goodness of the East! So keep the posts coming, folks 🙂
 
There are a few Eastern Catholic churches in our city - we visited one years ago, hoping we’d find a home there, but it was sort of awful, really influenced by the bad stuff in RC churches (altar girls!!!). We’re going to visit a Melkite church in the next few weeks, but we don’t know Arabic, so that’ll take some getting used to. I suppose once we get a car, and/or move to a city with an amazing Eastern parish community things will feel easier.
A good plan, and so sorry to hear that you had a less than expected experience already. I won’t ask where you went. I’m a Byzantine-Ruthenian, and despite occasional objections, women are not permitted in the sanctuary. In fact, it is stated in the Norms of Particular Law of our church. Does that mean it can’t happen? No, but surely it is not permitted.

I personally love the Melkite Church and was blessed to meet their current Bishop about a year before his appointment. While I too have no command of Arabic, it is a beautiful DL and tradition. BTW - almost all of the services I have attended were mostly in English.
 
Am still not sure what happens to miscarried babies…
First, we commonly believe that life begins at conception, not birth.

The Eastern Churches have long held that the fate of unborn and infants who die without the grace of baptism is entrusted directly to the mercy of God. Our faith in His infinite love and mercy should tell our hearts that they are not forgotten.

The Vatican has recently changed its stance on this subject, modifying the long held Augustian view (btw - through whose teachings the concept of original sin is understood): THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED (January 2007)

Funeral rites for these unbaptized exist in both traditions.
 
Wow, a really long blog post about EO on OS, very enlightening: razilazenje.blogspot.ca/2006/03/original-sin-in-eastern-orthodox.html

It seems that the common Orthodox view, at least online, that there is no original sin in the sense of the sin of Adam imparting actual guilt to all humans, which is cleansed in Baptism, is definitely an error even within the Orthodox universe. I wonder when it became such a widespread error?
Error, I think is the wrong way to describe it. If you read through the comments, the author of the blog responds to one of the comments that he finds such approaches to be imbalanced. He also denies that we are personally guilty of Adam’s sin (curiously, one of the catechisms he quotes states the opposite). It is perfectly orthodox to say that if man was not guilty of Adam’s sin, then there would have been no need for Christ to come and absolve man of this sickness and curse which Adam laid upon us, his descendents. But we are not personally guilty in the sense of being responsible for Adam’s sin; we are only inheritors of his condition, such that we all bear the marks of Adam’s sin like mortality and irrationality. The problem I think isn’t so much that somebody is ‘wrong’, it’s just that the fathers did not write about the fall in a very systematic or consistent way.
Am still not sure what happens to miscarried babies… sigh.
The best answer we can offer is that they are left to the mercy of God. We do not know what happens to those who are not baptized by water, but we can be sure that God has ways to save even them, if he so wills (this sentiment can be found in both St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Isaac of Nineveh).
 
Dear sister BirdsofDawn,
  1. Generally, where do ECs fall on the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Are they bound to it the way RCs are? Maybe that’s a stupid question, but I’m hoping the answer is no, because I am finding that I am having some real issues with RC doctrine of original sin… which leads me to…
The CCC is a guide, not a rulebook.
  1. So, where do ECs fall on original sin? How does it differ from full-out Orthodoxy? I only yesterday learned how very different the Orthodox understanding of the Fall and its results, and the importance of Baptism, and all of that is, as original sin is absent. It endears me (in part because I just had a miscarriage and it pushed me to really examine how much or little sense I see in the RC position).
The Eastern Tradition on Original Sin is not opposed to the Latin Tradition on Original Sin. Many misunderstand what the Latin Church teaches on Original Sin regarding guilt. Like so many things, the source of the misunderstanding is language. When the Latins say that we inherit guilt from Adam, most people think it means that the Latin Church is teaching that we inherit the BLAME for Adam’s sin. But that is completely false. There are two Latins words that are commonly translated as “guilt” in Latin theological language - culpa and reatus. Culpa (aside from its normal translation of “guilt”) means “blame” while “reatus” refers to a certain state. To explain, imagine that a man damages someone else’s property. That man acquires both culpa (personal blame for the action of which he is guilty) and reatus (a state of indebtedness to repay the damage) for that action. Suppose the man dies, yet he has not yet paid off the damage. Imagine that this man has a son who inherits his estate. The son will naturally inherit the reatus (the state of indebtedness to pay off the damage), but the son has certainly not inherited the culpa (the personal blame) for the man’s action.

Most people think that the Catholic Church’s dogmatic documents on Original Sin use the term culpa when speaking of “guilt.” Thus, there is a misconception that when these documents speak of inheriting the guilt of Adam, they are teaching that that we are inheriting the BLAME for his personal sin. Wrong. The term used by the dogmatic documents is actually reatus. Adam’s sin resulted in a certain state of being for himself and his descendants - i.e., we are born lacking the state of holiness in which Adam and Eve were created, and this state of being in a lack of holiness needs to be satisfied according to the Justice of God. Through the blood of Jesus Christ applied to us at Baptism, we acquire this state of Original Holiness.

Having discussed what “the guilt of Adam” is NOT according to the Latin Catholic teaching, the distinction between the Eastern Tradition on Original Sin (on the one hand), and the Western/Oriental Traditions on Original Sin (on the other) must be admitted. The idea that the Justice of God must be satisfied because of the state of sinfulness (i.e., lack of Original holiness) into which each of us is born is an idea which seems to be missing from the modern Eastern Tradition. It is present in the Eastern Tradition as late as St. Gregory Palamas, but somewhere along the way, it seems to have disappeared or at least diminished to a point that you will find Eastern Orthodox controversialists disparage the Western Tradition on the Justice of God (you’ll hardly find EO talk against the Oriental Orthodox Tradition on the Justice of God, but I think that is because many EO don’t even know that such a teaching is found in the Oriental Orthodox Tradition - many EO think the only difference between EO and OO is Chalcedon). It would be interesting to trace this development of doctrine within Eastern Orthodoxy.
  1. On Eastern Canon Law - my main question is, is there a Sunday obligation, like RCs are bound to? I am feeling really burdened by the Sunday obligation - I love love love Holy Communion, I love prayer, but I hate that the bottom line is that attendance is a duty - it tends to dominate my approach. Especially since having a baby (who’s almost 2 now) I’ve come to realize just how hard it will be to attend Mass as an open-to-life family for the next 20 years or whatever.
It is a duty to love God, and that is the heart of the Latin notion of “obligation.” It is the divine Law. If you attend Mass only because you feel you have to, that would not be what the Latin Church teaches – I guarantee it. Ask any Latin Catholic priest this question, “SHOULD I ATTEND MASS BECAUSE I HAVE TO OR BECAUSE I LOVE GOD?” I guarantee you that any Latin Catholic priest would answer you with the latter. In fact, the Latin Catholic Church makes a distinction in its Sacramental theology on Confession between the notions of CONTRITION and ATTRITION. Contrition is sorrow out of sheer love of God, while attrition is sorrow out of fear of punishment or some other lesser motive. To the Latin Catholic Church, though both are sufficient to obtain forgiveness, contrition is the more perfect approach. So the Latin Church DOES understand that our actions must be borne of love for God, not any lesser motive (though the Latin teaching does accept such lesser motives in the road to perfection). You should read more about the mystical tradition of the Latin Catholic Church, which you may find enlightening and very satisfying. I have a lot of Latin Catholic friends and I know of none who approach Mass out of mere obligation. I do believe that one can obtain a mentality of legalism within Latin Catholicism more easily than in the other Catholic Traditions (Eastern and Oriental), but one can overcome that legalism just as well within the confines of the Latin Catholic Tradition. The Latin Catholic Tradition has much to offer – you just have to look for it.

If your heart is in the Eastern Tradition, that is just as rich as the Latin Tradition, so go for it.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I personally love the Melkite Church and was blessed to meet their current Bishop about a year before his appointment. While I too have no command of Arabic, it is a beautiful DL and tradition. BTW - almost all of the services I have attended were mostly in English.
I’ll second that. If my experience with Melkite parishes over the last 10 years is representative, then I’d say only about 1 out of 4 Melkite DL’s have a substantial amount of Arabic.

birdsofdawn, here’s a general thought (which may be unnecessary to say): Try to keep in mind that Eastern and Orthodox aren’t interchangeable. (One can be Orthodox without being Eastern, and one can be Eastern without being Orthodox.) That doesn’t answer the question of what you should do, but it’s an important distinction.
 
Having discussed what “the guilt of Adam” is NOT according to the Latin Catholic teaching, the distinction between the Eastern Tradition on Original Sin (on the one hand), and the Western/Oriental Traditions on Original Sin (on the other) must be admitted. The idea that the Justice of God must be satisfied because of the state of sinfulness (i.e., lack of Original holiness) into which each of us is born is an idea which seems to be missing from the modern Eastern Tradition. It is present in the Eastern Tradition as late as St. Gregory Palamas, but somewhere along the way, it seems to have disappeared or at least diminished to a point that you will find Eastern Orthodox controversialists disparage the Western Tradition on the Justice of God (you’ll hardly find EO talk against the Oriental Orthodox Tradition on the Justice of God, but I think that is because many EO don’t even know that such a teaching is found in the Oriental Orthodox Tradition - many EO think the only difference between EO and OO is Chalcedon). It would be interesting to trace this development of doctrine within Eastern Orthodoxy.
When you write polemics like this, you do a disservice to saints like Saint Athanasius, by misrepresenting their teachings. It should be apparent to anybody who reads book two of On the Incarnation that when Athanasius talks about the law of death which Christ conquered, he is presenting it as a sort of soteriological dilemma in order to highlight the divinity of Christ. God, having promised Adam that he would die, could not go back on his own word, lest he should prove to be a lying God. How then could the Father have rescued man? If he allowed man to repent, then man still could not be immortal, lest God should make himself a liar, that is to say, no human repentance could ever undo the cosmic effects of Adam’s transgression. It was only by having the Word, the very fashioner of the world and the possessor of the power of life, go into the world in the form of a servant that He could restore man without breaking His promise, so by dying under the law as the perfect sacrifice to God the Father, The Son could exhaust its power.

This teaching of the atonement and sacrifice of Christ is of course nothing more than an Orthodox restatement of the doctrine of atonement as taught in the New Testament, geared towards proving the divinity of Christ. What the Orthodox object to and what Athanasius does not teach, is that Christ had to die to satisfy the Father’s lost honor. The atonement for Athanasius is accomplished because he unites life to our nature, restoring our corrupted nature. The atonement in some unacceptable theories involve restoring the honor of God, as if the impassible God’s honor could ever be insulted or lessened by our rebellion.
 
Nothing here in what you quoted says that we are bound to the CCC. Yes, the CCC contains the Church’s teaching including all doctrine and dogma. But it is still not the CCC we are bound to. Its like saying I am bound to a photo of my wife. I can say, “yes, that image in the photo is my wife and I am married to my wife.” But in no way am I married to the photo.
 
When you write polemics like this, you do a disservice to saints like Saint Athanasius, by misrepresenting their teachings. It should be apparent to anybody who reads book two of On the Incarnation that when Athanasius talks about the law of death which Christ conquered, he is presenting it as a sort of soteriological dilemma in order to highlight the divinity of Christ. God, having promised Adam that he would die, could not go back on his own word, lest he should prove to be a lying God. How then could the Father have rescued man? If he allowed man to repent, then man still could not be immortal, lest God should make himself a liar, that is to say, no human repentance could ever undo the cosmic effects of Adam’s transgression. It was only by having the Word, the very fashioner of the world and the possessor of the power of life, go into the world in the form of a servant that He could restore man without breaking His promise, so by dying under the law as the perfect sacrifice to God the Father, The Son could exhaust its power.

This teaching of the atonement and sacrifice of Christ is of course nothing more than an Orthodox restatement of the doctrine of atonement as taught in the New Testament, geared towards proving the divinity of Christ. What the Orthodox object to and what Athanasius does not teach, is that Christ had to die to satisfy the Father’s lost honor. The atonement for Athanasius is accomplished because he unites life to our nature, restoring our corrupted nature. The atonement in some unacceptable theories involve restoring the honor of God, as if the impassible God’s honor could ever be insulted or lessened by our rebellion.
I think you are the one engaging in senseless polemics here.

The doctrine of the Justice of God in the Latin or Oriental Traditions cannot be pidgeonholed into the caricature that you have (mis)presented. Your presentation is a popular opinion but is not dogmatized in the Latin Tradition (much less the Oriental Tradition). Yet you Easterns go on and on and on and on about this particular opinion as if it was dogma.

Who said anything about restoring the honor of God? Only you. Take the polemic blinders off your eyes. The biblical and patristic teaching on satisfying the Justice of God cannot be written off by your misrepresentation of it.

The satisfaction that needs to be met (contrary to your misrepresentation) according to the Latin and Oriental doctrine is the holiness that God demands of US. It is for OUR benefit, not for His. Get that straight.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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