Three Eastern questions

[Cavaradossi]

I think you are the one engaging in senseless polemics here.

The doctrine of the Justice of God in the Latin or Oriental Traditions cannot be pidgeonholed into the caricature that you have (mis)presented. Your presentation is a popular opinion but is not dogmatized in the Latin Tradition (much less the Oriental Tradition). Yet you Easterns go on and on and on and on about this particular opinion as if it was dogma.

Who said anything about restoring the honor of God? Only you. Take the polemic blinders off your eyes. The biblical and patristic teaching on satisfying the Justice of God cannot be written off by your misrepresentation of it.

The satisfaction that needs to be met (contrary to your misrepresentation) according to the Latin and Oriental doctrine is the holiness that God demands of US. It is for OUR benefit, not for His. Get that straight.

Blessings,
Marduk

Marduk, you are the one with his polemical blinders glued on. Read my post again, because you clearly are not understanding it. Certain distortions of the biblical and patristic teachings on the atoning sacrifice of Christ are unacceptable, and that is what the Orthodox are reacting against. The idea that God’s justice led to the punishment for Adam’s transgression is not what is being protested (nor that Christ had to suffer under this punishment in order to overcome it), and had you read my post, you would have seen that. What is rejected is that God’s justice involves becoming offended over man insulting His honor, like some pagan sky goblin, and then demanding that the perfect sacrifice die in order to satisfy his “justice”. I can see how you might confuse the two, since they involve the same language on the surface, only diverging upon closer inspection, but you might be well served to try and learn the difference between Orthodox substitution theories (Christ died to exhaust the power of God’s sentence against mankind with His life, bringing life to mankind without making God a liar), like what Athanasius taught, and satisfaction theories (Christ died to satisfy God’s demand that sinners be punished, enabling God to forgive sins), like what John Calvin taught.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Howdy! I’m a cradle RC married to a Greek Catholic, and we both go to a Latin Mass parish, but our home devotional life is much more Eastern- (ie, icon-) centered. I sometimes feel tempted to convert to Orthodoxy, for a few reasons, but I am very strongly pro-life and abhor contraception, and I also could not commune with a church that allows divorce, so I wouldn’t ever toe the line really. It’s kind of a “grass is greener” thing maybe. The Novus Ordo depresses me and I feel like there is a certain beautiful freedom to the lack of systematic, centralized, dogmatic catechesis in Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism (though I also wonder whether that lack of centralization and resulting lack of legislative/teaching consistency might make me crazy, lol).

So… I have three questions about the golden middle, ECism:

1. Generally, where do ECs fall on the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Are they bound to it the way RCs are? Maybe that’s a stupid question, but I’m hoping the answer is no, because I am finding that I am having some real issues with RC doctrine of original sin… which leads me to…
2. So, where do ECs fall on original sin? How does it differ from full-out Orthodoxy? I only yesterday learned how very different the Orthodox understanding of the Fall and its results, and the importance of Baptism, and all of that is, as original sin is absent. It endears me (in part because I just had a miscarriage and it pushed me to really examine how much or little sense I see in the RC position).
3. On Eastern Canon Law - my main question is, is there a Sunday obligation, like RCs are bound to? I am feeling really burdened by the Sunday obligation - I love love love Holy Communion, I love prayer, but I hate that the bottom line is that attendance is a duty - it tends to dominate my approach. Especially since having a baby (who’s almost 2 now) I’ve come to realize just how hard it will be to attend Mass as an open-to-life family for the next 20 years or whatever.

First and foremost, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your baby! May you be comforted.

Through my examination so far of Orthodoxy I have learned a few things.

1. Orthodox Church is pro-life and against contraception and even NFP but due to the weakness of sinners, their spiritual father is like a doctor of the soul and will examine a struggling couple’s situation and may make an allowance for the use of birth control, like NFP what will not kill the soul of the couple or the life of any conceived children. And through their extensive Fasting practices that includes abstainence from many food and marital relations, conceiving a baby is naturally more rare than a typically non-birth control using couple.
2. Eclesiastical Divorce is what both our Church & their Church accepted from the beginning based on Jesus’ own acceptance of it in specific situations. Divorce is extremely limited and hard to come by. And annulments are fairly recent practice in our Church’s history. Basically Annulments & Eclesiastical Divorce are very similiar with the exception that an Annulment is easier to get (more reasons allowable) and Eclesiastical Divorce at least acknowlges a marriage did exist.

Doesn’t the new translation of the Norus Ordo make it better?

Recently I found in the CCC that the “care of infants” is a valid exception to the Sunday & Holy Day Obligation to attend Mass. In Jesus’ time, even 3 yr olds were considered infants. I’m not sure about the exact age range is considered an infant by our Church?

 

[babochka]

I am just feeling really burdened right now with the Sunday obligation, given that we either have to white-knuckle it and fight waves of despair the whole time (Novus Ordo) or at best we feel somewhat alienated/not at home with the Latin Mass (and I have a toddler so I don’t even get to spend that much time in the church proper). I suppose if I’m honest that’s a big part of where my motivation is coming from.

.

Please don’t let the Sunday obligation be a burden to you. It is surely not meant to be the rigid “do it or go to hell” sort of thing that it is made out to be. Remember, caring for young children is a legitimate reason to miss mass. I remember reading The Story of a Soul and being surprised to read that St. Terese longed to go to mass as a young child, but was not allowed until she was 5 years old. She had to stay home with servants, who presumably did not attend mass because they were seeing to her.

Having said that, hang in there. I am pregnant with my 6th child. I have 5 children ranging in age from 21 months to 10 years old. These are tough years, but it does get easier. I haven’t really prayed much during Divine Liturgy since my oldest was a baby. It is a season in life and it is starting to get easier for me, even though I keep adding kids to the mix.

 

[birdsofdawn]

Wow, thanks everybody! The culpa/reatus distinction is really especially helpful, I’ll have to keep that in mind! Thanks, mardukm.

PeterJ - yes, good point; I have friends who are Oriental Orthodox and I have friends who are Eastern Orthodox; I tend to say EO out of a (bad) habit based on a misunderstanding of Orthodoxy I held years ago. My bad!

ComeHome2Rome - I’d disagree that the Orthodox church has any strictness at all about contraception. I have two good Orthodox friends, one a convert, one a cradle O, and they both say there is no problem with contraception in their churches whatsoever (one is OCA, one is Coptic). It s never even mentioned in a negative light. And unfortunately, no, I don’t find the new translation of the NO much better - I find the NO structurally barren; the language of the TLM is much more rich and poetic in comparison, it is structurally more reverent. Ad orientem sacrifice is important to me, as is basic reverence for Holy Communion - reception on the hand bothers me, it practically tortures me; I don’t see how one can believe that our Lord is present in the Blessed Sacrament and yet distribute in the hand, as though particles and possible desecration are no problem. I also am bothered by the excessive exterior activity of the lay people, and can’t stand women in the sanctuary. This all pertains to a perfectly “correct” NO, and of course many are worse for not being by the book.

babochka - thank you! You are a trucker! I do realize I am not strictly obligated, but I often go in part to encourage my husband, who also resents that aspect of Canon Law and would otherwise just not go. It’s a balance all the time.

 

[Peter_J]

Nothing here in what you quoted says that we are bound to the CCC. Yes, the CCC contains the Church’s teaching including all doctrine and dogma. But it is still not the CCC we are bound to. Its like saying I am bound to a photo of my wife. I can say, “yes, that image in the photo is my wife and I am married to my wife.” But in no way am I married to the photo.

True.

Also, I’ve commented before on this forum that I can’t subscribe to any sort of sola catechisma – but now I’m getting off on a tangent.

 

[Peter_J]

(One can be Orthodox without being Eastern, and one can be Eastern without being Orthodox.)

P.S. I should say, one can be Orthodox and be Western.

 

[ConstantineTG]

True.

Also, I’ve commented before on this forum that I can’t subscribe to any sort of sola catechisma – but now I’m getting off on a tangent.

Yes, and that is the problem here. People suddenly use the CCC as sort of the “be all, end all” of our faith. The CCC’s purpose is to catechize, not to be a library of Church doctrine. The basics are there, but the doctrines themselves are not presented in their entirety.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Yes, and that is the problem here. People suddenly use the CCC as sort of the “be all, end all” of our faith. The CCC’s purpose is to catechize, not to be a library of Church doctrine. The basics are there, but the doctrines themselves are not presented in their entirety.

And lest we forget, the CCC was primarily intended to be a guide for bishops.

I therefore strongly urge my Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate, for whom the Catechism is primarily intended, to take the excellent opportunity afforded by the promulgation of this Latin edition to intensify their efforts to disseminate the text more widely and to ensure that it is well received as an outstanding gift for the communities entrusted to them, which will thus be able to rediscover the inexhaustible riches of the faith.

 

[birdsofdawn]

Has anybody here ever actually made the switch from RC to another rite? I understand it’s not often permitted, which I get. I’m wondering what are some of the good and sufficient reasons that people have had to get approval from both patriarchs…?

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Hello birdsofdawn

You and I sound very similar lol! I am sorry for your recent loss I had my 4th miscarriage earlier this year and it is still hard to deal with. I also wonder about the fate of my 4 kids…I pray for them every night and I hope they are with Our Lord.

I also have been contemplating Orthodoxy over the past 12 years or so. Currently I am part of a Ukrainian Catholic Mission Parish that has taken nearly 3 years to get started. My husband , I and our 3 kids are all still canonically Latin Catholics. Like you we go to a Latin Mass parish. I don’t mind the Ordinary Form when it is done correctly (daily Mass doesn’t bother me too much) but it is hardly ever done without some major abuses going on…at least in our Diocese. I also don’t like the extreme participation of the laity and women in the sanctuary. I also dislike Communion in the hand. However theologically I also have an issue with the legalism that is so prevalent in Roman Catholic Theology. The Holy Day of Obligations are just one things that irk me…Oringinal Sin is another and the Supremacy of the Pope is the third. I do believe what the Catholic Church teaches about it but it is NEVER taught that way to most Catholics! Most that I know have a completely erroneous understanding of the Papacy.

The Latin Mass helps me be a bit more spiritual but not much. My youngest is 20 mths and basically either my husband or myself is in the back cry room with her the whole time. So it’s still hard to fully be present to pray. There is also a slight Roman superiority complex going on at that parish. I find that uncomfortable b/c in my heart I’m Byzantine already and I love the Byzantine traditions! I ADORE Divine Liturgy!

My husband and I are looking into a canonical transfer this upcoming year. It depends on if the Ukrainian Bishop will let us switch. We finally have a priest for our Mission Parish who can stay with us b/c he has a new job! YEA! That will be a big factor in the bishop letting us switch. I pray that you find your spiritual home wherever that may be

 

[peresieh]

Has anybody here ever actually made the switch from RC to another rite? I understand it’s not often permitted, which I get. I’m wondering what are some of the good and sufficient reasons that people have had to get approval from both patriarchs…?

Yes, I have. My mother is Ukrainian Catholic and my Father was Latin Catholic. They were married in the Ukrainian Catholic Church during WWII but raised me as a Roman Catholic. When my father died seven years ago, he had a Ukrainian Catholic burial service and I petitioned Bishop Richard to change Church affiliations. I had no problems.

 

[peresieh]

Hello birdsofdawn

You and I sound very similar lol! I am sorry for your recent loss I had my 4th miscarriage earlier this year and it is still hard to deal with. I also wonder about the fate of my 4 kids…I pray for them every night and I hope they are with Our Lord.

I also have been contemplating Orthodoxy over the past 12 years or so. Currently I am part of a Ukrainian Catholic Mission Parish that has taken nearly 3 years to get started. My husband , I and our 3 kids are all still canonically Latin Catholics. Like you we go to a Latin Mass parish. I don’t mind the Ordinary Form when it is done correctly (daily Mass doesn’t bother me too much) but it is hardly ever done without some major abuses going on…at least in our Diocese. I also don’t like the extreme participation of the laity and women in the sanctuary. I also dislike Communion in the hand. However theologically I also have an issue with the legalism that is so prevalent in Roman Catholic Theology. The Holy Day of Obligations are just one things that irk me…Oringinal Sin is another and the Supremacy of the Pope is the third. I do believe what the Catholic Church teaches about it but it is NEVER taught that way to most Catholics! Most that I know have a completely erroneous understanding of the Papacy.

The Latin Mass helps me be a bit more spiritual but not much. My youngest is 20 mths and basically either my husband or myself is in the back cry room with her the whole time. So it’s still hard to fully be present to pray. There is also a slight Roman superiority complex going on at that parish. I find that uncomfortable b/c in my heart I’m Byzantine already and I love the Byzantine traditions! I ADORE Divine Liturgy!

My husband and I are looking into a canonical transfer this upcoming year. It depends on if the Ukrainian Bishop will let us switch. We finally have a priest for our Mission Parish who can stay with us b/c he has a new job! YEA! That will be a big factor in the bishop letting us switch. I pray that you find your spiritual home wherever that may be

I love attending the Divine Liturgy in Fort Wayne. When is the next one? What job did Father get-VA Chaplain?

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I love attending the Divine Liturgy in Fort Wayne. When is the next one? What job did Father get-VA Chaplain?

yes he got the VA job Our next Liturgy is scheduled for August 5th…we are also having one on August 19th ( he wants to celebrate Dormition that Sunday since some of us won’t be here on the 15th). Father was hoping to continue to have a biweekly schedule during summer…that might change in the Fall to weekly. He said that the Bishop wanted to come and visit in the Fall sometime but I’m not sure when.

 

[birdsofdawn]

Hello birdsofdawn

You and I sound very similar lol! I am sorry for your recent loss I had my 4th miscarriage earlier this year and it is still hard to deal with. I also wonder about the fate of my 4 kids…I pray for them every night and I hope they are with Our Lord.

I also have been contemplating Orthodoxy over the past 12 years or so. Currently I am part of a Ukrainian Catholic Mission Parish that has taken nearly 3 years to get started. My husband , I and our 3 kids are all still canonically Latin Catholics. Like you we go to a Latin Mass parish. I don’t mind the Ordinary Form when it is done correctly (daily Mass doesn’t bother me too much) but it is hardly ever done without some major abuses going on…at least in our Diocese. I also don’t like the extreme participation of the laity and women in the sanctuary. I also dislike Communion in the hand. However theologically I also have an issue with the legalism that is so prevalent in Roman Catholic Theology. The Holy Day of Obligations are just one things that irk me…Oringinal Sin is another and the Supremacy of the Pope is the third. I do believe what the Catholic Church teaches about it but it is NEVER taught that way to most Catholics! Most that I know have a completely erroneous understanding of the Papacy.

The Latin Mass helps me be a bit more spiritual but not much. My youngest is 20 mths and basically either my husband or myself is in the back cry room with her the whole time. So it’s still hard to fully be present to pray. There is also a slight Roman superiority complex going on at that parish. I find that uncomfortable b/c in my heart I’m Byzantine already and I love the Byzantine traditions! I ADORE Divine Liturgy!

My husband and I are looking into a canonical transfer this upcoming year. It depends on if the Ukrainian Bishop will let us switch. We finally have a priest for our Mission Parish who can stay with us b/c he has a new job! YEA! That will be a big factor in the bishop letting us switch. I pray that you find your spiritual home wherever that may be

Haha wow it sounds like we really are kindred spirits! I know what you mean, there really is a lot of Latinish triumphalism in Latin Mass parishes; despite the relative superiority of the liturgy it makes me nuts. I will message you in a bit.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

ComeHome2Rome - I’d disagree that the Orthodox church has any strictness at all about contraception. I have two good Orthodox friends, one a convert, one a cradle O, and they both say there is no problem with contraception in their churches whatsoever (one is OCA, one is Coptic). It s never even mentioned in a negative light.

OCA = Orthodox Church of America comes from Russia Orthodox Church comes from the Greek Orthodox Church established by the apostle Andrew. OCA is a very new Orthodox Church made up of many converts in hiearchy and laity. Would it be possible that they may have brought their prior church’s stance on contraception in and once the bishops find out they can review with them the Orthodox canons that speak strongly against contraception they will conform their believes with what the Orthodox has believed?

**Coptic **= Church founded by the apostle Mark. Coptics separated from Orthodoxy at one of the Ecumenical Councils because they believe in a single Nature a mix of human and divine of Jesus while the rest of the Orthodox Churches and our Catholic Church believe in a two Natures of Jesus, one human and one divine. Coptics separated themselves from Orthodoxy on that issue, but have maintained an Apostolic Succession.

I also have family friends who are Coptic and they also tell me something you may really like. Their Church is much more strict when it comes to a few issues like Fasting and Divorce/Annulment. The Coptic Church does not accept Divorce or Annulments. I would be surprised if they do really accept contraception. Even if they do, they’re not a part of and don’t represent the Orthodox Church.

And unfortunately, no, I don’t find the new translation of the NO much better - I find the NO structurally barren; the language of the TLM is much more rich and poetic in comparison, it is structurally more reverent. Ad orientem sacrifice is important to me, as is basic reverence for Holy Communion - reception on the hand bothers me, it practically tortures me; I don’t see how one can believe that our Lord is present in the Blessed Sacrament and yet distribute in the hand, as though particles and possible desecration are no problem. I also am bothered by the excessive exterior activity of the lay people, and can’t stand women in the sanctuary. This all pertains to a perfectly “correct” NO, and of course many are worse for not being by the book.

You have many great points. I would be hardpressed to find someone who didn’t agree with you.

On our Catholic Church’s side, I would say that once the Pope permitted reception of Communion in the hand, don’t we have to accept it as equally correct as on the tongue? And isn’t true that the every earliest Mass Liturgy ever used, the one the apostle James of Jerusalem made, also gave Communion in the hand?

On the Orthodox Churches’ side, I would say that when I attended Mass at the Orthodox Church this passed Sunday, it was the most beautiful thing I’d ever seen even compared to our own Latin Masses. Holy Communion had the most profound and beautiful prayer I’ve ever heard. It’s a shame so many in our Catholic Church don’t believe in the real presence, but anyone who listened to that prayer I heard on Sunday would know that’s what we believe without question.

If you join an Eastern Catholic Church would it be a problem for you to be in full union with the Catholic Church that believes and practices what you mentioned that you don’t like. Communion in the hand, NO and women in the sanctuary?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I also have been contemplating Orthodoxy over the past 12 years or so.

I’m sorry to hear about your children. God willing you and they will be joyfully reunited again in the future.

I now find myself examining the Orthodox Church. Please share with me why you have been contemplating Orthodoxy so long. What is keeping you in the Catholic Church and what continues to attract you after all these years to Orthodoxy?

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I’m sorry to hear about your children. God willing you and they will be joyfully reunited again in the future.

I now find myself examining the Orthodox Church. Please share with me why you have been contemplating Orthodoxy so long. What is keeping you in the Catholic Church and what continues to attract you after all these years to Orthodoxy?

Thank you, that means a lot to me. I often think that my children will be with the angels welcoming me to Heaven when I die (God willing!).

The biggest thing that keeps me Catholic is communion with the Bishop of Rome. I believe that being in Communion with Rome is the ideal. And I admire the unity that the Catholic Communion has. The problem I face is the Roman superiority and latinizations that are so prevalent. Our Mission is devoid of those latiinizations mainly b/c our priest used to be Orthodox (OCA).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I find the NO structurally barren …

While I am not a staunch advocate, a fair comparison of the structure of the NO bears much resemblance to many other established, “stable” forms of Liturgy. I think many end up sensing a void in the NO when celebrated without a modicum of basic chant and selection of more classic forms of liturgical hymns. Done largely as spoken prayer. it can seem “empty”. That said, it is expression of the NO done in this manner more than actual form / structure which creates this sense, especially for the more traditional folks in the pews.

The chant traditions, rich prayers and extensive reference to Scripture in hymnody that are so very essential to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in Eastern Churches, for example, creates an “active” atmosphere of worship (by design) with the same essential structural elements.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The problem I face is the Roman superiority and latinizations that are so prevalent. Our Mission is devoid of those latiinizations mainly b/c our priest used to be Orthodox (OCA).

Mission parishes can be great, and its good to hear that you are enjoying a spiritually enriching experience. That said, even though you have a former OCA priest, he is still accountable to faithfully render services according to the rubric accepted for use in his current Church. We have come far in moving away from Latinizations. with room for improvement. Where you likely have an edge is that you have a former Orthodox priest in a mission setting (so I assume he is a relative newcomer to your Eparchy), and he would certainly not perpetuate any Latinizations that might have been long accepted by the local community. If by chance this is a Ruthenian mission, then (based on your location) I would also add that you have a very Orthodox leaning bishop, and are blessed in that regard. It all starts at the top!

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Mission parishes can be great, and its good to hear that you are enjoying a spiritually enriching experience. That said, even though you have a former OCA priest, he is still accountable to faithfully render services according to the rubric accepted for use in his current Church. We have come far in moving away from Latinizations. with room for improvement. Where you likely have an edge is that you have a former Orthodox priest in a mission setting (so I assume he is a relative newcomer to your Eparchy), and he would certainly not perpetuate any Latinizations that might have been long accepted by the local community. If by chance this is a Ruthenian mission, then (based on your location) I would also add that you have a very Orthodox leaning bishop, and are blessed in that regard. It all starts at the top!

yes this is a great community that I am apart of . Our priest doesn’t do anything contrary to Catholic doctrine and dogma. He has been granted bi-ritual faculaties and assists at Mass at the RC Cathedral. We are officially a Ukrainian Catholic Mission Parish. Our priest and his family were received in Dec 2010 in Chicago (the seat of the Ukrainian catholic Bishop of our Eparchy).I should add here that we have a subdeacon who is Ukrainian Catholic. He does the reading during Divine Liturgy and his boys are alter servers…as is my son .