Three Eastern questions

[ComeHome2Rome]

Thank you, that means a lot to me. I often think that my children will be with the angels welcoming me to Heaven when I die (God willing!).

:angel1:

The biggest thing that keeps me Catholic is communion with the Bishop of Rome. I believe that being in Communion with Rome is the ideal. And I admire the unity that the Catholic Communion has.

What do you mean by “the unity that the Catholic Communion has”? Where is this unity?

I’ve only been examining this for less than a week which may explain why I’ve not been successful.

In trying to find where exactly that unity is in reality, I am only finding where the Unity is NOT. It’s…

• Not in the Creed, two phrases are added to the Creed in some of these unified Churches and are missing from the Creed in some of the others
• Not in the Liturgy, NO is never used in Eastern Churches and the Liturgy of St. Basil is never used in the Roman/Latin Church. And some Churches even have non-Mass liturgies not found in the Roman/Latin right, like the Presanctified
• Not in the Daily Readings, the Churches in the Catholic Communion have it’s own cycle of Bible Readings
• Not in the celebration of Saints, different calendars of Saints are used in the different Churches
• **Not the unity is not in the Administration **as apparently the Eastern Churches aren’t bound by the Code of Canon Law and some have their own Canons
• Not in the celibacy of the clergy, Eastern Churches do have married priests
• Not in the hierarchy, at least one Church even has it’s own Patriarch
• Not in the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I’ve learned here that Eastern Catholics are not bound to believe in the teachings found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church
• Not in the use of Altar Girls, only the Roman/Latin Church allows that
• Not in Eucharistic Adoration, only the Roman/Latin Church has that

*** Not in the administration of the Sacraments**, in some Churches babies are baptized, confirmed & given Holy Communion, while in the Roman/Latin Church babies are only baptized & are then years later given confirmation & Holy Communion, but in a different order than the other Churches

*** Not in the books of the Bible**, at least two Churches in union have more books in the Bible than the Roman/Latin Church accepts as canonical

Please help me out here. What precisely is “unified” among the Churches in the Catholic Communion?

The problem I face is the Roman superiority and latinizations that are so prevalent. Our Mission is devoid of those latiinizations mainly b/c our priest used to be Orthodox (OCA).

Was your priest a priest when he left the Orthodox Church? Has he shared why he left?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

What do you mean by “the unity that the Catholic Communion has”? Where is this unity?

I’ve only been examining this for less than a week which may explain why I’ve not been successful.

It is impossible in one week’s time to come to a full appreciation of any Church, let alone that which binds several distinct Churches in unity.

At the end of the day, the Communion of Catholic Churches is bound in the believe of its unique witness to the faith of the Apostles, in the fullness of the varied traditions found in the 22 other Churches in union with Rome.

Some of the differences you have noted are really “form” over substance. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed for example does exhibit some variation across Churches were it is in normal use, but these are largely issues of translation and usage of language / style. The substance is not changed. The only thing ever “added” to the Creed was the Filioque (see thousands of other related threads ).

Such an analysis of the Latin Church by a non-Latin Apostolic Christian would just as quickly come up with one obvious questin related to this subject - why does the Latin Church have two Creeds (N-C and Apostles’ Creed)?

It might be helpful to break down your observations into pointed questions. We can then help you with your journey of learning and discernment.

 

[malphono]

The only thing ever “added” to the Creed was the Filioque (see thousands of other related threads ).

Well … Don’t forget the redundant “Deum de Deo” which is in the Latin version.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Well … Don’t forget the redundant “Deum de Deo” which is in the Latin version.

Indeed, thanks! As you rightly pointed out, a redundancy, but fair point.

 

[peresieh]

:angel1:

What do you mean by “the unity that the Catholic Communion has”? Where is this unity?

I’ve only been examining this for less than a week which may explain why I’ve not been successful.

In trying to find where exactly that unity is in reality, I am only finding where the Unity is NOT. It’s…

• Not in the Creed, two phrases are added to the Creed in some of these unified Churches and are missing from the Creed in some of the others
• Not in the Liturgy, NO is never used in Eastern Churches and the Liturgy of St. Basil is never used in the Roman/Latin Church. And some Churches even have non-Mass liturgies not found in the Roman/Latin right, like the Presanctified
• Not in the Daily Readings, the Churches in the Catholic Communion have it’s own cycle of Bible Readings
• Not in the celebration of Saints, different calendars of Saints are used in the different Churches
• **Not the unity is not in the Administration **as apparently the Eastern Churches aren’t bound by the Code of Canon Law and some have their own Canons
• Not in the celibacy of the clergy, Eastern Churches do have married priests
• Not in the hierarchy, at least one Church even has it’s own Patriarch
• Not in the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I’ve learned here that Eastern Catholics are not bound to believe in the teachings found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church
• Not in the use of Altar Girls, only the Roman/Latin Church allows that
• Not in Eucharistic Adoration, only the Roman/Latin Church has that

*** Not in the administration of the Sacraments**, in some Churches babies are baptized, confirmed & given Holy Communion, while in the Roman/Latin Church babies are only baptized & are then years later given confirmation & Holy Communion, but in a different order than the other Churches

*** Not in the books of the Bible**, at least two Churches in union have more books in the Bible than the Roman/Latin Church accepts as canonical

Please help me out here. What precisely is “unified” among the Churches in the Catholic Communion?

Was your priest a priest when he left the Orthodox Church? Has he shared why he left?

We live in the United States of America “one nation under God.” Yet we have 50 states, each with its own set of laws concerning all manner of things. State constitutions, taxation laws, speed limits, etc. We stress unity, not uniformity. In the 23 Catholic Churches united with the Pope we have different ways of expressing our basic beliefs. If there are matters of disagreement, we have a magisterium to settle things. The Orthodox churches have Aposotlic sucession but are split along political and ethnic grounds. They have no central magisterium. For example, there are three Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions, but they have the same creed, scriptures, liturgies, etc. One is even considered non-canonical by the others.
Are they unified? No. So in the Catholic Churches our unity allows diversity in the expression of our faith.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

:angel1:

What do you mean by “the unity that the Catholic Communion has”? Where is this unity?

I’ve only been examining this for less than a week which may explain why I’ve not been successful.

Was your priest a priest when he left the Orthodox Church? Has he shared why he left?

Well admittedly I’m still learning myself and I’m not as well versed in Eastern theology as in Western theology (I’m a cradle Roman and went to a Roman Catholic school for 12 years but the pull of and interest in the East was present from an early age). But I will agree with what ByzCathCantor and peresieh have said…there is a lot of diversity in the Catholic Communion.

Our priest was ordained in the OCA but grew up Lutheran. I don’t know for certain what made him enter in to Communion with Rome but I think it had something to do with the role of the Bishop of Rome within the Church universal.

 

[dzheremi]

**Coptic **= Church founded by the apostle Mark. Coptics separated from Orthodoxy at one of the Ecumenical Councils because they believe in a single Nature a mix of human and divine of Jesus while the rest of the Orthodox Churches and our Catholic Church believe in a two Natures of Jesus, one human and one divine. Coptics separated themselves from Orthodoxy on that issue, but have maintained an Apostolic Succession.

No, no, no… This is highly inaccurate. I can appreciate your view that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not Orthodox from a Chalcedonian perspective, but it is unacceptable to us to say that Christ is a “mixture of human and divine”. Please, if you must reject the Church, do so based on what we actually believe, not what you have read or absorbed from transparently false sources, whatever they were. The Coptic Orthodox Church, like all the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox (Coptic, Syriac, Tewahedo, Armenian), believe in and follow the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria, who was the 24th Pope of the Church of Alexandria. St. Cyril is also an Orthodox saint according to the Eastern/Chalcedonian Church (as well as the Roman). He expressed his view by the famous statement “One nature of the incarnate word of God” (in the original Greek “mia physis tou theo logou sesarkomene”). We specifically deny the heresy of Eutyches (that Christ is a “mixture”) in every liturgy, when the priest prays in the prayer of confession:

“Amen. Amen. Amen. I believe, I believe,
I believe and confess to the last breath;
that this is the Life-giving Body that
Your Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God
and Savior Jesus Christ took from our
lady, the lady of us all, the holy Mother
of God, Saint Mary.
He made It One with His divinity without
mingling, without confusion, and
without alteration.”

(emphasis mine)

And later on in the prayer, the nature of Christ is explicitly affirmed:

“Truly I believe that His divinity parted not from His humanity for a single moment, nor the twinkling of an eye.”

This is our faith – Miaphysite (cf. “mia physis” from St. Cyril’s confession), neither Eutychian nor Monophysite. Those are heresies, and we, by contrast, are Orthodox.

Please do not spread untruths about a Church that you do not understand or worship in.

I also have family friends who are Coptic and they also tell me something you may really like. Their Church is much more strict when it comes to a few issues like Fasting and Divorce/Annulment. The Coptic Church does not accept Divorce or Annulments. I would be surprised if they do really accept contraception. Even if they do, they’re not a part of and don’t represent the Orthodox Church.

:doh2:

Our stance on contraception is essentially the same as the EO: We do not support contraception, but just the same cannot forbid it outright. This is a matter of pastoral sensitivity and economia, whereby there may be some legitimate issues to be considered (can the family actually SUPPORT another child?, etc.) that would make it unwise to issue a blanket condemnation of the practice. Because of this, our bishops urge consultation with the couple’s spiritual father to determine whether use of non-abortifacient contraception (the only kind permissible) is acceptable or not.

There is no divorce, however, in the Coptic Church, but for adultery. “Adultery” may be defined in physical (marital) or spiritual terms. For instance, if one spouse leaves the faith, this is considered as grounds for divorce, so as to not create a situation in which two faiths are practiced in the family. Other than this, however, there is no divorce. This has created many problems in Egypt, where a few years ago the authorities saw fit to grant divorces and remarriages to Copts, in direct defiance of the Gospel and the authority of the Church. Some selfish people have even left the Church over it. May God have mercy on them. This situation has led to strong protests in Egypt, both from Copts supporting the Church’s position and those dissenting from it. Lord have mercy.

 

[Peter_J]

What do you mean by “the unity that the Catholic Communion has”? Where is this unity?

I’ve only been examining this for less than a week which may explain why I’ve not been successful.

In trying to find where exactly that unity is in reality, I am only finding where the Unity is NOT. It’s…

In broad strokes, without going point by point, may I say that I tend to see it the other way around. That is to say, that list doesn’t convince me that the Catholic Church is wrong, and indeed one of the big problems I have with Orthodoxy is that it’s very difficult* for anyone to be Orthodox without being Eastern.

*albeit not impossible – I’m aware of the Western-Rite Orthodox

 

[5Loaves]

… and indeed one of the big problems I have with Orthodoxy is that it’s very difficult* for anyone to be Orthodox without being Eastern.

*albeit not impossible – I’m aware of the Western-Rite Orthodox

I’m not sure what you mean by “difficult* for anyone to be Orthodox without being Eastern” but the OCA, and the Antiochian Church parishes around here are full of converts, both laity and clergy, from protestant ecclesial communities or the Latin Church. Even ROCOR here in SF has plenty of converts, And I’m not talking about any of these folks being Eastern.

On the other hand I have a friend in an OCA parish here who was an active parishioner in the Greek Orthodox parish near us for about a decade and finally left because she said even after all those years of being very active in the parish people would still ask her what Church was she was from.

Maybe I have totally misunderstood you. If so oops!

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

We live in the United States of America “one nation under God.” Yet we have 50 states, each with its own set of laws concerning all manner of things. State constitutions, taxation laws, speed limits, etc. We stress unity, not uniformity.

Not a good example.

Unlike the Catholic Communion of Churches, the United States does have Federal Laws that everyone in each and every state has to follow. I’ve just learned on this site that the Code of Canon Law is not applicable to all the Churches within the Catholic Communion!

NOT every Church within the Catholic Communion of Churches are required or bounded to believe in the Teachings as outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

There is no unity of Belief, no unity of Canon Law.

I still have to ask where is the “unity” in the Catholic Church.

The Orthodox churches have Aposotlic sucession but are split along political and ethnic grounds. They have no central magisterium. For example, there are three Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions, but they have the same creed, scriptures, liturgies, etc. One is even considered non-canonical by the others.
Are they unified? No.

On political and ethnic grounds the Roman Catholic Diocese I live in here in California has a separate Roman Catholic parish just for the Korean population, a separate Roman Catholic parish just for the Vietnamese population, a separate Roman Catholic parish just for the Polish population. I could go on because there are more, but I think the point has been made.

I don’t think you would consider the Catholic Church “‘split’ along political and ethnic grounds” because of this reality within the same Catholic Church, Roman/Latin Rite, right? I could be wise for us to use the same measure to judge our own Church when we judge another?

So in the Catholic Churches our unity allows diversity in the expression of our faith.

I’ve discovered that it’s really diversity in the “faith” not just in the “expression of faith”. If it were in the “faith” then every Church within the Communion of Catholic Churches would be required to belief in the teachings found in the CCC and in the CCL.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

In broad strokes, without going point by point, may I say that I tend to see it the other way around. That is to say, that list doesn’t convince me that the Catholic Church is wrong,

I want to make clarify that I am not saying that the Catholic Church is wrong.

I am saying that I can not (yet) find where there is unity within the Communion of Catholic Churches.

I am only finding disunity in terms of the Creed, the Liturgy, Beliefs, Canon Law, administration of the Sacraments and these are the heart of our Catholic Faith.

Please help me to find where the unity lies.

and indeed one of the big problems I have with Orthodoxy is that it’s very difficult* for anyone to be Orthodox without being Eastern.

Greek Orthodox is also known as Eastern Orthodox, but really Greece is the birth place of the Western Civilization as we know it!!! Can’t get much more “Western” than that.

The Orthodox Churches in Australia, Canada & the United States have a majority of laity that are born and raised here in the West. In the past those parishes were made up of a majority were immigrants from other countries.

I visited an Orthodox Church just last Sunday. If you visit one, you may see for yourself.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J
… and indeed one of the big problems I have with Orthodoxy is that it’s very difficult* for anyone to be Orthodox without being Eastern.

True. I should have said "it’s very difficult for anyone to be Orthodox without being Byzantine.

Only a very, very small number of Orthodox are WRO, and some Orthodox don’t think there should be WRO at all.

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t have a problem being Western and Orthodox. It is the faith of the Church, regardless of the ethnic or cultural character of the people in any particular parish.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Not a good example.

not a perfect example, but …

Unlike the Catholic Communion of Churches, the United States does have Federal Laws that everyone in each and every state has to follow.

… so does the Church. It is Canon Law.

I’ve just learned on this site that the Code of Canon Law is not applicable to all the Churches within the Catholic Communion!

There is a separate Code of Canon Law for Eastern Churches, which elaborates on the particular aspects of the Eastern Churches in Communion with Rome. The Eastern Catholic Churches are obedient to Church Law as tailored to the unique character of the Eastern Churches.

NOT every Church within the Catholic Communion of Churches are required or bounded to believe in the Teachings as outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Of course we are, otherwise we would not be Catholic. I’m sitting next to my copy of the CCC as I write. The CCC also does a fair job of elaborating on the theological perspective of the Eastern Churches in several cases throughout the CCC.

Not sure how you are coming to these conclusions. Why don’t we take a deep breath and start fresh? It seems that you’ve gotten sound responses here, so perhaps your concerns are best address here in this thread …

 

[StillWondering]

The Latin Rite is immensely rich BirdofDawn as I’m sure you will recognize. As for the NO being dry for you, remember the beauty of God is hidden in the ordinary. Have you ever stared at a flower and thank God for it’s beauty? Now, have you ever look at barren branched and did the same thing? If you can thank God for the beauty of that branch, you will see God’s beauty everywhere. And surely in the NO.

Having said this, I want to say I do not see the NO as dry. In fact, I love it. There have been abuses, lost of tradition, and weakening of the richness and Truths of God but that is really the people involved more than the form of the Liturgy. (Now EF Mass seems really reverent but it had it’s good and bad manifestations too when it was the main form).

Love God’s Liturgy, in whatever form. I recognize the beauty of icons and the chantful nature of how Mass used to be read. They enrapture me. But if I cannot see the beauty of the NO that God also blessed me with, then I am letting the lesser spiritual gifts, the icon and sounds, cloud over the greater spiritual gifts, God’s presence and the choirs of angles singing at Mass. They sing so loudly if the church building could hear them the roof would collapse.

 

[mardukm]

Dear ComeHome2Rome,

On political and ethnic grounds the Roman Catholic Diocese I live in here in California has a separate Roman Catholic parish just for the Korean population, a separate Roman Catholic parish just for the Vietnamese population, a separate Roman Catholic parish just for the Polish population. I could go on because there are more, but I think the point has been made.

I don’t think you would consider the Catholic Church “‘split’ along political and ethnic grounds” because of this reality within the same Catholic Church, Roman/Latin Rite, right? I could be wise for us to use the same measure to judge our own Church when we judge another?

Good point. But the distinction between jurisdictions along national lines within Eastern Orthodoxy goes deeper than mere language and culture. All Latin Catholics are under the same Canon law despite nationality – that is not true among the Eastern Orthodox. Each national Church has its own set of Canon law because they are under different Patriarchs.

Your point is applicable on the Church-wide level, however. ALL Orthodox Churches (Eastern and Oriental) have a common set of Canon laws and teachings, just as ALL Catholic Churches have a common set of Canon laws and teachings.

I’ve discovered that it’s really diversity in the “faith” not just in the “expression of faith”. If it were in the “faith” then every Church within the Communion of Catholic Churches would be required to belief in the teachings found in the CCC and in the CCL.

Can you give some concise examples where you think there is a diversity of “faith” in Catholicism, and not just the “expression of faith?”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

… so does the Church. It is Canon Law. There is a separate Code of Canon Law for Eastern Churches

You just made the point I attempted to convey…the Churches within the Catholic Communion of Churches are subject to a DIFFERENT set of Canon Law. In the US, people in every state are subject to the exact same Federal Law.

Of course we are, otherwise we would not be Catholic. I’m sitting next to my copy of the CCC as I write. The CCC also does a fair job of elaborating on the theological perspective of the Eastern Churches in several cases throughout the CCC.

Read more here & you will see that it has been said more than once by Catholics of non-Roman/Latin Rites that they are NOT required, by their Church that is within the Catholic Communion, to believe the Teachings found in the CCC. Maybe in your Church you’re required to, but not in others.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You just made the point I attempted to convey…the Churches within the Catholic Communion of Churches are subject to a DIFFERENT set of Canon Law. In the US, people in every state are subject to the exact same Federal Law.

But every State has their own laws as well. If not, why do we have State Legislatures?

The CCEO isn’t a completely different set of laws from the CIC (Code of Canon Law). But it is written in such a way to accommodate different traditions of the East.

Read more here & you will see that it has been said more than once by Catholics of non-Roman/Latin Rites that they are NOT required, by their Church that is within the Catholic Communion, to believe the Teachings found in the CCC. Maybe in your Church you’re required to, but not in others.

We are required to accept them. We can’t be in communion with a Church we believe is heretical. So whether we practice the beliefs in the CCC or not, we should accept them as valid and true.

 

[mardukm]

Dear ComingHome2Rome,

Read more here & you will see that it has been said more than once by Catholics of non-Roman/Latin Rites that they are NOT required, by their Church that is within the Catholic Communion, to believe the Teachings found in the CCC. Maybe in your Church you’re required to, but not in others.

That is not true. ALL Catholics are bound together by their Faith and the unity of their respective hierarchs. Each Church within the Catholic communion may expresses the Faith differently however (both in practice and in doctrinal expressions).

Granted, I know of some Catholics who do not see the compatibility between these different EXPRESSIONS of the same Faith. Again, I urge you to provide some specific examples that demonstrate your statement “I’ve discovered that it’s really diversity in the “faith” not just in the "expression of faith.” Let us discuss.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

:angel1:…What precisely is “unified” among the Churches in the Catholic Communion? …

There are three factors that the Catholic ritual Churches fully share: faith, Holy Mysteries, and hierarchy.

So that means that their bishops are all in full communion with the Holy Father the Bishop of Rome. It means that the dogmas of faith are shared, even though there is a different theological expression of them. It means the sharing of the same seven Holy Mysteries (sacraments), even though the discipline in administering them is slightly different.