Three Immortal Nephites?

[ben_dy]

In re-reading the Book of Mormon again, I began to wonder about the three immortal Nephites who seem to have a special ministry in that they seem to be charged with spreading a particular message separate from the other 9 Nephite disciples who would only live to be 72 and who would (and I’m paraphrasing) do good and reveal themselves to good men.

I began to wonder, then, if claims had been made of people coming into contact with the three Nephites and wondered, in fact, if an LDS member is actually to hold these passages true or whether they were allegorical. When I ‘Googled’ “three immortal Nephites” the website that was at the top of the list - nowscape.com/mormon/3nephites.htm - seemed to have exactly the information I was seeking but after only a few moments of reading I realized that the page was nothing but satire.

So, LDS members, what’s the story? True or allegorical?

Ben

 

[BJRumph]

For what little it is worth;

Though were you to visit the local ward here, I could easily point out to you those who believe this, and the related immortality of John the Beloved, quite literally; It would be deceptive for me to suggest the actual disposition of the ward in general, though I would suspect that more than a few believe as I did, that it was allegorical in nature.

The only problem with the “allegorical” position (and it always chafed me) was that there is no reason for the allegory; that is, there is no symbolical/allegorical value to asserting that there are four particular immortals running around. It only has a literal/historical value. (unless you stretch it to mean it is a special calling of these four to spiritually “remain” here, as sort of “present” Saints or Angels remaining behind to enact their collective ministry. Hmm, I wonder if anyone has broached the subject of the lds ideas of the Communion of Saints…)

Like I inferred, a little bit of (name removed by moderator)ut, but a far way from giving you the answer your looking for.

Caritas numquam excidit
Inter arma caritas

 

[majick275]

You can look here (pro-LDS site):

gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi28.htm

This would indicate a lack of “established doctrine” on this as the two specific references here could be seen as contradictory and in any case don’t seem to be conclusive.

Most Mormons I have known see this as literal but leave some “wiggle room” as to what actuall happened. (i.e. They believe that Jesus blessed them so that they were “translated” but are unsure about where they went/are and what they did/are doing now.)

 

[amgid]

ben_dy:

So, LDS members, what’s the story? True or allegorical?

Ben

True!

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

True!

amgid

Okay…would you care to elaborarte on what that means? (were they taken to heaven, do they still walk the earth?)

 

[amgid]

majick275:

Okay…would you care to elaborarte on what that means? (were they taken to heaven, do they still walk the earth?)

The answer is given straight out of the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 28:

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
…

25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
amgid

 

[majick275]

Yes, I’ve read that . The wording has left enough to interpretation to cause a variety of opinions even within LDS circles.

Some see this as showing that they are like angels who show up when they feel a need.(and are otherwise in paradise or some other “protected environment”) ,some see it as still allowing for them to have already been “translated” (depends on your definition of Christs coming in glory), Some see them as walking about just like regular mortal men with well preserved but still unglorified mortal bodies. (which would be translated when Jesus comes at the end)

From your viewpoint (Which I understand to be that they have been continually ministering as Apostles upon th eEarth) Why didn’t they “restore” the priesthood to JS, et al, as they would (by LDS definition of Apostle) hold all the necessary keys and have been the last to validly hold those keys upon the earth? Shouldn’t they have baptized Oliver and Joseph rather than them doing this to each other prior to receiving their “priesthood”? Wouldn’t they have had the authority to ordain Joseph a prophet? (BTW where was Joseph ordained a prophet by the laying on of hands? I can’t seem to remember the reference so I didn’t give a name here)

 

[amgid]

majick275:

Yes, I’ve read that . The wording has left enough to interpretation to cause a variety of opinions even within LDS circles.

Some see this as showing that they are like angels who show up when they feel a need.(and are otherwise in paradise or some other “protected environment”) ,some see it as still allowing for them to have already been “translated” (depends on your definition of Christs coming in glory), Some see them as walking about just like regular mortal men with well preserved but still unglorified mortal bodies. (which would be translated when Jesus comes at the end)

There is no need for such speculations. The Book of Mormon passages which I had quoted make clear enough their state and condition:

3 Nephi 28:

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
What I understand from these passages is that they live on earth like us mortals, but their identities are kept secret or hidden. They are “hid from the world,” but live normally among them. They “will be among the Gentiles and the Gentiles will not know them,” and they will be “among the Jews, and the Jews will not know them”. But they live on earth to “behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men”. When the right time comes, they will “minister … unto all nations … and bring out of them many souls unto Jesus”. The meaning of the scriptures are very clear. No ambiguity need arise.

From your viewpoint (Which I understand to be that they have been continually ministering as Apostles upon th eEarth)

They were not ordained Apostles. There can be only twelve Apostles at any one time, and Jesus had already ordained His 12 Apostles among the Jews in Palestine by the time that He visited the Nephites. The twelve ministers of the Nephites are identified in the Book of Mormon by the title of “disciples,” to distinguish them from the “Apostles” whom he chose among the Jews in Palestine.

Why didn’t they “restore” the priesthood to JS, et al, as they would (by LDS definition of Apostle) hold all the necessary keys and have been the last to validly hold those keys upon the earth?

As explained above, they did not have the apostolic authority to do so.

Shouldn’t they have baptized Oliver and Joseph rather than them doing this to each other prior to receiving their “priesthood”?

They certainly did have the priesthood authority to baptize Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, if it had been the will of the Lord that they should. But for the reasons best known to the Lord, He chose to send John the Baptist to do it, rather than doing it through them. God has His own ways of doing things, and He is not obliged to always tell us why He does things the way that He does them; neither do we need to know that in order to believe that they came from Him.

Wouldn’t they have had the authority to ordain Joseph a prophet? (BTW where was Joseph ordained a prophet by the laying on of hands? I can’t seem to remember the reference so I didn’t give a name here)

Joseph Smith was called to that office directly by God Himself, in the First Vision. Whether it was done by the laying on of hands or not, I do not know.

amgid

 

[Geocacher]

majick275:

You can look here (pro-LDS site):

gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi28.htm

I been an LDS member for 34 years, and never knew this stuff thats in 3 Nephi.

Interesting stuff here.

 

[majick275]

Geocacher:

I been an LDS member for 34 years, and never knew this stuff thats in 3 Nephi.

Interesting stuff here.

See, I don’t just quote "Anti- " stuff.

 

[majick275]

amgid:

There is no need for such speculations. The Book of Mormon passages which I had quoted make clear enough their state and condition:

3 Nephi 28:

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
What I understand from these passages is that they live on earth like us mortals, but their identities are kept secret or hidden. They are “hid from the world,” but live normally among them. They “will be among the Gentiles and the Gentiles will not know them,” and they will be “among the Jews, and the Jews will not know them”. But they live on earth to “behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men”. When the right time comes, they will “minister … unto all nations … and bring out of them many souls unto Jesus”. The meaning of the scriptures are very clear. No ambiguity need arise.

…and you had such an easy out with Mormon 1:13

They were not ordained Apostles. There can be only twelve Apostles at any one time, and Jesus had already ordained His 12 Apostles among the Jews in Palestine by the time that He visited the Nephites. The twelve ministers of the Nephites are identified in the Book of Mormon by the title of “disciples,” to distinguish them from the “Apostles” whom he chose among the Jews in Palestine.

This is the first time that I have heard this to be LDS doctrine. ( I am not disagreeing, I just want to research this before commenting further)

As explained above, they did not have the apostolic authority to do so.

Ditto my above as well

They certainly did have the priesthood authority to baptize Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, if it had been the will of the Lord that they should. But for the reasons best known to the Lord, He chose to send John the Baptist to do it, rather than doing it through them. God has His own ways of doing things, and He is not obliged to always tell us why He does things the way that He does them; neither do we need to know that in order to believe that they came from Him.

Yet John did NOT baptize them…they baptized each other. (which is not valid according to LDS doctrine)

Joseph Smith was called to that office directly by God Himself, in the First Vision. Whether it was done by the laying on of hands or not, I do not know.

Well for continuity sake it seems odd that someone with the “keys” didn’t do this since it seemed necessary for all of the other “ordinations”, etc. (elijah, John, peter/james/john, etc.) Does someone with the keys need to do this? why couldn’t God himself have just handled all of this?

amgid

 

[majick275]

This from a general conference talk by Apostle Dallin Oaks in 1987

During his ministry Jesus taught, “Behold I am the light; I have set an example for you” (3 Ne. 18:16). Later, he told his Apostles, “Hold up your light that it may shine unto the world,” adding, “Behold, I am the light which ye shall hold up—that which ye have seen me do” (3 Ne. 18:24). He taught the Nephite multitude, “Ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do” (3 Ne. 27:21).

Brian L. Smith Oct 1994 Ensign

Following is a list of some of the personages who appeared to Joseph Smith to restore priesthood keys, to deliver divine instructions, or to perform other functions. The sources History of the Church and Journal of Discourses are abbreviated as HC and JD. The Prophet Joseph communicated with other messengers who previously had lived righteously on earth, but the precise nature of these visits is not known. These personages include Seth, Isaac, Jacob, and the Jewish and Nephite Apostles (see Journal of Discourses, 21:94). In addition, Joseph Smith saw other angels in vision, some of whom are identified in recorded revelation (see, for example, D&C 107:53; compare History of the Church, 3:388).

<this really makes me wonder why the nephites didn’t handle all of Josephs Priesthood needs>

This might shed some light on the subject:

Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve said:

“After His mortal ministry, … Jesus told his Nephite Apostles that He would no longer accept burnt offerings but that His disciples should offer ‘a broken heart and a contrite spirit’ (3 Ne. 9:19–20; see also D&C 59:8, D&C 59:12). Instead of the Lord requiring our animals or grain, now He wants us to give up all that is ungodly. This higher practice of the law of sacrifice reaches into the inner soul of a person. …

“… When we overcome our own selfish desires and put God first in our lives and covenant to serve Him regardless of the cost, we are then living the law of sacrifice” (“The Law of Sacrifice,” Ensign, Oct. 1998, 10–11).

<also repeated in the Mar, 2002 Liahona and in the D&C/Church History Gospel doctrine teachers manual>

I don’t know if the distinction that you made between Disciple and Apostle prevents these nephites from holding the necessary keys.

I am unsure of the doctrinal status of this distinction. (Which is good, I still am capable of learning)

 

[Casen]

The Book of Mormon uses the word “disciple”, not “Apostle” so perhaps Elder Ballard misspoke. I concur that the twelve ordained Nephites were indeed special disciples but not Apostles.

 

[majick275]

Casen:

The Book of Mormon uses the word “disciple”, not “Apostle” so perhaps Elder Ballard misspoke. I concur that the twelve ordained Nephites were indeed special disciples but not Apostles.

Well if he misspoke then why did the church reprint it in th eLiahona and then place it in a lesson manual?

In any case, as I said earlier, I am not sure that distinction makes a difference in this case. Even as “Disciples” could/should these nephites not have been teh ones to take care of the necessary priesthood ordinances for Joseph and Oliver? As an absolute minimum they were specifically authorized and assigned to baptize. (long after the death of John)

 

[Casen]

majick275:

Well if he misspoke then why did the church reprint it in th eLiahona and then place it in a lesson manual?

In any case, as I said earlier, I am not sure that distinction makes a difference in this case. Even as “Disciples” could/should these nephites not have been teh ones to take care of the necessary priesthood ordinances for Joseph and Oliver? As an absolute minimum they were specifically authorized and assigned to baptize. (long after the death of John)

I don’t know for sure why the distinction makes a difference either but the word disciple is used instead of apostle in the Book of Mormon for some reason. And I don’t know why God chooses one person over another to ordain a person (though I have my personal opinion about it). Anyway, I’m not sure why this matters.

 

[majick275]

Casen:

I don’t know for sure why the distinction makes a difference either but the word disciple is used instead of apostle in the Book of Mormon for some reason. And I don’t know why God chooses one person over another to ordain a person (though I have my personal opinion about it). Anyway, I’m not sure why this matters.

i think it matters because of the LDS emphasis on proper priesthood authority. Look at LDS baptisms today, they have to be done"just right" or they don’t count, same with sacrament prayers and temple ordinances. So if this was all really “true”, wouldn’t things have been done “right”? I just see too many inconsistencies here that when viewed with all of the other things I have found about the LDS church causes me to disute that the LDS church is the only true church established by God with the “fullness” of the gospel.

My own spiritual witness (received only AFTER a careful study of available scripture, ECF teachings, history, etc. ) has led me to the RCC. The Holy Spirit testifies to me that Jesus founded the RCC and that it teaches his true doctrine today. I fully understand that your own experience is different. I have certainly been there and done that. I thank God for his mercy on me, a sinner. May God bless you with all that he has to give.

 

[amgid]

I think that Casen has already given you the appropriate answer. Here are some additional thoughts from me:

majick275:

i think it matters because of the LDS emphasis on proper priesthood authority. Look at LDS baptisms today, they have to be done “just right” or they don’t count, same with sacrament prayers and temple ordinances. So if this was all really “true”, wouldn’t things have been done “right”?

So you believe that John the Baptist didn’t have the “right authority”? Couldn’t he do things “just right”? I am truly puzzled.

I just see too many inconsistencies here that when viewed with all of the other things I have found about the LDS church causes me to disute that the LDS church is the only true church established by God with the “fullness” of the gospel.

All the inconsistencies that see appear to be in your line of reasoning, not in the LDS position. I see no inconsistencies there.

My own spiritual witness (received only AFTER a careful study of available scripture, ECF teachings, history, etc.) has led me to the RCC. The Holy Spirit testifies to me that Jesus founded the RCC and that it teaches his true doctrine today. I fully understand that your own experience is different. I have certainly been there and done that. I thank God for his mercy on me, a sinner. May God bless you with all that he has to give.

My response to that is that I respect your beliefs. Good luck to you. You are welcome to your beliefs. As for myself, I can confirm that I have also investigated the LDS church intelligently and impartially, and found it to be true. I have no doubt in my mind that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, that the book of Mormon is a revelation from God, and it is true.

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

I think that Casen has already given you the appropriate answer. Here are some additional thoughts from me:

So you believe that John the Baptist didn’t have the “right authority”? Couldn’t he do things “just right”? I am truly puzzled.

John didn’t baptize Jospeh and Oliver did He?

All the inconsistencies that see appear to be in your line of reasoning, not in the LDS position. I see no inconsistencies there.

I’m sure you don’t, nevertheless I do.

My response to that is that I respect your beliefs. Good luck to you. You are welcome to your beliefs. As for myself, I can confirm that I have also investigated the LDS church intelligently and impartially, and found it to be true. I have no doubt in my mind that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, that the book of Mormon is a revelation from God, and it is true.

Good for you. Please understand that many of us here have already been there and done that. Perhaps you would find your “missionary zeal” better spent teaching people who have asked to learn about the LDS church. I’m sure your ward mission leader can help you there.
amgid