Three-in-One = Trinity?

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pro_universal said:
If it’s not accessible by reason, it can’t be explained by reason either.
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That’s not true. I can have a reason for not understanding how the sun shines, and also have a reason for accepting a scientists explanation for it, even if I don’t fully understand it.

It’s called reasoned faith. Like one has when your dad picks you up that he’s not going to throw you to the ground, but hug you instead.
pro_universal said:
So you need faith to buy it in the first place. In other words, you need blind faith first, and then the trinity will make sense. But if you don’t presume that the trinity is true, then it will never make sense.
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One can have a reasoned faith. A reason for having faith.
pro_universal said:
Interesting formula for a God that wants us to rely on our powers of reasoning in discerning the truth.
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And we have.

We have reason to trust God. When he describes himself as a Trinity we have reason to accept this, even if we don’t fully understand it. And it’s logical to accept that we’ll never fully understand God.

Or, are you saying that you fully understand everything about your god?
 
Vincent said:
The analogy has its limits, for 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 . . . . ad infinitum also = 1.
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Indeed it does (have limits), that’s why its an analogy and not a formula that explains in point detail the nature of the trinity; a mystery that’s ultimately beyond explanation.

One uses them all the time.

But what it does is gives a glimpse into the possibility that one can be three.
 
Montalban said:
Ah, so here’s where you’ve popped up!

You’re now a Moslem. Moslems believe that your god is inconceivable. You’re expected to believe in that. Why would your god require you to believe in something beyond understanding?

How did your god create the universe. Please provide an ‘intellectually honest way to solve the problem’, or are you give a vague explanation and just expected to believe in it?

I have no problem that God would be beyond my understanding. That *would *in fact be the nature of God - unless you think man should be so super-smart?
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Pro Universal is Moslem? :confused:
Funny he left that off of his religious affiliation…
You are absolutely correct. I’ve yet to see Islam (which is his faith) set out a conclusive work explaining in steps about the nature of everything so that everything can be known.
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If it is true he is moselm and yet he made these comments in this tread that is certainly deception and a double standard on his part.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Pro Universal is Moslem? :confused:
Funny he left that off of his religious affiliation…

If it is true he is moselm and yet he made these comments in this tread that is certainly deception and a double standard on his part.
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It is my understanding that he is
 
God can exist perfectly without need for creation. We are told that God is love so how can we reconcile the statements. Certain elements are needed for love to exist … 1) A lover … God 2) something to love … a beloved (Jesus) and 3) the love between them (Holy Spirit).

You could not be love without those 3 elements.
 
To clear it up, yes pro_universal is a Muslim. He seems to have been one ever since he joined this forum, but at first he tried posing as a Catholic. He “left the church” (i.e., started admitting he was a Muslim) only recently.
 
Water can be made manifest in 3 different ways.

Liquid - water

solid - ice

gas - steam

All three are one substance, not three different sunstances.
 
Okay, for starters:

No, I’m not Muslim. The people who are saying this are either not being honest, or they haven’t read my posts.

Second:

There’s an enormous gulf between saying “God did this and we don’t know how” and “God is one and God is three.”

Leaving something to mystery doesn’t require you to speak in contradictions. Saying that God is one without distinctions and that God is three distinct persons is exactly such a contradiction. The problem isn’t that the trinity is “tough to understand”, it’s that any formulation of it requires you to ignore contradictions.

It’s not just hard to understand the trinity, it’s not possible. The sentences you use to express it contradict each other…ie, “The Father is wholly God” and “The Son is Wholly God” yet “The Father is not the Son.” In order for all three of those to be true, you either: a) have to add something to God which distinguishes between the father and the son or b) have to presume that there are multiple Gods.

2000 years of theology, and there is no non-contradictory explanation of the trinity that doesn’t either conflate the persons or divide the substance. That’s more powerful a statement than I could ever make.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Water can be made manifest in 3 different ways.

Liquid - water

solid - ice

gas - steam

All three are one substance, not three different sunstances.
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I think we need to stop with the analogies. They never get you anywhere, when it comes to the Trinity.

By the way this isn’t meant to be personal, I’m just saying it so you know in the future… but “one God in three FORMS” is actually a false representation of the Trinity. It was a heresy called Modalism.
 
You believe.
Or you don’t.
You have the gift of faith.
Or you don’t.
originally posted by pro_universal
I can’t see any intellectually honest way to solve the problem.
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Why would you even think that The Almighty God Creator should or would make Himself understood to mere man - His creation?
That’s extremely arrogant ‘thinking’.
 
catsrus said:
You believe.
Or you don’t.
You have the gift of faith.
Or you don’t.

Why would you even think that The Almighty God Creator should or would make Himself understood to mere man - His creation?
That’s extremely arrogant ‘thinking’.
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That isn’t the issue. The question is:

Why would God make our salvation depend on believing in a doctrine that reason says is contradictory?

There’s a difference between “mystery” and “blatant contradiction.” This is an example.
 
catsrus said:
You believe.
Or you don’t.
You have the gift of faith.
Or you don’t.
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It’s not that simple either, though. Muslims say something pretty similar, but the “faith” they refer to proves to be a blind faith.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
If you have a better way of explaining it, go for it.
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After I mentioned the importance of distinguishing “person” and “nature” earlier in the thread, I actually thought Vincent covered it pretty well. If there was something else you were curious about that he left out, however, I’ll do my best to answer you.
 
The other thing we have to keep in mind here… the Trinity is difficult enough to explain for somebody who is open to it. When you are replying to a Muslim about it, realize that the Muslim is only bringing it up because he or she was taught to blindly dismiss the Trinity no matter what and they’re only using it to try and attack your beliefs anyway. Don’t be too discouraged when they keep parroting “I still don’t understand” when it’s apparent that they were never listening to begin with. Most Muslims are taught early on to use whatever means they can to discredit Christianity and they’ve all heard how using the Trinity (which they don’t understand to begin with) is a cheap and easy means to do this. I say this so that people will not be disheartened by what may seem to be a genuine misunderstanding at first.
 
pro_universal said:
That isn’t the issue. The question is:

Why would God make our salvation depend on believing in a doctrine that reason says is contradictory?

There’s a difference between “mystery” and “blatant contradiction.” This is an example.
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The real issue is this: If you think that the Trinity is a “blatant contradiction,” then you haven’t adequately studied Trinitarian doctrine. IOW, you’re conflating your knowledge of the subject at hand with knowledge of the subject at hand.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
originally posted by pro_universal
Why would God make our salvation depend on believing in a doctrine that reason says is contradictory?
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Your definition of “reason” is that of a human being.
originally posted by exoflare
It’s not that simple either, though…

When you are replying to a Muslim about it, realize that the Muslim is only bringing it up because he or she was taught to blindly dismiss the Trinity no matter what and they’re only using it to try and attack your beliefs anyway.
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Yes. You are correct. Argueing or “reasoning” with muslims is out of the ordinary for me. 😃
I was thinking about my conversion and that pro_universal also converted.
To put it a little better:
I once had NO faith.
Then, by a gift of God, and ONLY by that gift, I became a believer.
I did not need to understand, or know the mind, or thought processes of The Almighty to accept the gift of faith.
 
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