Three-in-One = Trinity?

[exoflare]

Can’t wait to receive it. I also ordered the one you had mentioned: “Theology and Sanity”.

Cool. Both books are very similar, with Theology for Beginners being meant as kind of a preparation course for the deeper stuff (albeit mostly over the same basic topics) he goes into with Theology and Sanity. It’s great if you can read both in that order, as it looks like you’ll be able to do.

 

[Alexius]

Something my mind keeps coming back to:

If each person of the Holy Trinity is 100% God and together they are 100% God, yet still distinct, then if one person is gone, God is still 100% God, but now just two persons. If this is so, why can’t He be complete in just one person. Can’t He be one person who creates and sustains and saves? I know some have tried to explain this, but I just don’t get it. I just see it as kind of unnecessary to need three distinctive persons…When I was younger, I unknowingly believed in Modalism (Sabellianism). Why does this (modes) work? I will pray about this…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[truthsilence]

Something my mind keeps coming back to:

If each person of the Holy Trinity is 100% God and together they are 100% God, yet still distinct, then if one person is gone, God is still 100% God, but now just two persons. If this is so, why can’t He be complete in just one person. Can’t He be one person who creates and sustains and saves? I know some have tried to explain this, but I just don’t get it. I just see it as kind of unnecessary to need three distinctive persons…When I was younger, I unknowingly believed in Modalism (Sabellianism). Why does this (modes) work? I will pray about this…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Peace be with you Alexius.

Apologies, for I cannot remember where I got the following quotes, and they might not be helpful to you at all but for whatever reason, when I read your post, these thoughts came to mind:

It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. The divine Unity is Triune.

From the beginning to the end of time, whenever God sends his Son, he always sends his Spirit: their mission is conjoined and inseparable.

Why? I guess because it works?

May God Bless you, and answer your prayer.

 

[Vincent]

If this is so, why can’t He be complete in just one person. Can’t He be one person who creates and sustains and saves? I know some have tried to explain this, but I just don’t get it. I just see it as kind of unnecessary to need three distinctive persons.

Toledo XI gives us this summary:
“In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both.”
To put it another way:

The Father is the Father only in relation to the Son. The Son is the Son only in relation to the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit only in relation to the Father and the Son.

Or, negatively:

Remove the Son and the Father wouldn’t be Father. Remove the Father and the Son wouldn’t be Son. Remove the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be the Holy Spirit.

Divine Revelation presents Jesus in relation to his Father. If we wish to take seriously that (1) God is one and (2) Jesus is truly the Son of God, and thus God – the Resurrection “vindicating” his natural Divine Sonship, (Acts 13:33), – then we are faced with the reality that God is relational in his very essence.

Relation is subsistent in God. God *is *in that God relates.

If relation subsists in God, and “God is love”, then . . .

 

[Vincent]

As long as there is identity between the persons and God, you can’t claim both:

That the Persons are not identical and
That there is only one God.

If you claim both of those things in addition to “each person is identical to God”, you have a textbook contradiction. The only possible way out is if you find a way to claim that the persons aren’t identical to God…but then you don’t have the trinity.

What distinguishes the divine persons is relation. In fact, the divine persons do not have relations — they *are *relations, which subsist in the divine essence itself:

The person of the Father is distinct only insofar as he relates to the person of the Son. The Son is distinct only insofar as he relates to the person of the Father. The person of the Holy Spirit is distinct only insofar as he relates to the person of the Father and the person of the Son.

If the individuation of the divine persons is reduced to anything other than relation (e.g. substance or accident — neither of which exist in God), or if the divine persons are seen as autonomous, self-referential entities, rather than *being *mutual relations, then it’s not surprising that contradictions ensue.

 

[happygal]

Folks, if anyone can simply explain Trinity in words, then during my RCIA class the Priest won’t be tongue tight till he cannot answer all the inquirers question about trinity and even some of the Catholics does not seem to understand what exactly trinity is about !!! You get what i mean, is either pple understand or simply they don’t, coz it is just too profound to explain in words.

BTW i always wanted to learn from the Catholic what does Holy Spirit means to you?? How does Holy Spirit use you to help others??

 

[chrisb]

Folks, if anyone can simply explain Trinity in words, then during my RCIA class the Priest won’t be tongue tight till he cannot answer all the inquirers question about trinity and even some of the Catholics does not seem to understand what exactly trinity is about !!! You get what i mean, is either pple understand or simply they don’t, coz it is just too profound to explain in words.

BTW i always wanted to learn from the Catholic what does Holy Spirit means to you?? How does Holy Spirit use you to help others??

Grace and Peace happygal,

Actually it’s really not ‘that’ profound. It was never intended to be an established paradox as it is seen today. We simply no longer understand Platonism in our modern day thus we tend to smash into an apparent paradox by its claim of the necessity of a Triadic-Form of Divinity (The Thinker, The Thought and the procession of the Will). Add to this ignorance a doctrine so sacrosanct that most individuals are simply afraid to discuss it with any depth and we see why we have such a problem understanding and discussing it. Many Christians stand in complete ignorance of what others believed and still believe to be a logical contradiction. This is nothing new even during the earliest period of the Church (i.e. see the Arian controversy) the majority of Christendom held a more neo-platonist view of emanationism than what Athanasius would propose and the Council would later support.

As I’ve said before, we need to have these discussions anew and we needd to have them with greater depths if we are to understand the reasons why Christendom was brought kicking and screaming into the Doctrine of the Trinity after the Council of Nicea.

We’re never going to understand Muslim criticism and reach an logical and healthy dialogue with them concerning this if we continue to fear digging deeper into the actual rationale of the doctrine.

Peace.

 

[dessert]

My favorite verse to use scripture is 2 cor ;13;13
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.
Three persons in one divine nature of God.
A question? Are three identicle twins all girls or all boys born from one egg all with the exact DNA as they could exchange organs with each other more than likely, are they really three DIFFERENT individual persons from one egg or are they all the SAME three persons from one egg?
Answer me this Monty. Dessert

 

[dessert]

OOps sorry I meant triplets, exactly identical. Dessert

 

[water]

Folks, if anyone can simply explain Trinity in words, then during my RCIA class the Priest won’t be tongue tight till he cannot answer all the inquirers question about trinity and even some of the Catholics does not seem to understand what exactly trinity is about !!! You get what i mean, is either pple understand or simply they don’t, coz it is just too profound to explain in words.

BTW i always wanted to learn from the Catholic what does Holy Spirit means to you?? How does Holy Spirit use you to help others??

happygal,

The Trinity is something we believe from the Scriptures although it is never mentioned directly. To understand the Trinity fully is something we human being can not understand. Therefore, it is either we believe it and understand partially about it or we don’t know at all.

“…we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of Life. With the Father and The Son, He is worshiped and glorified”.
The Holy Spirit guides me to help others by letting me see Jesus in each one of us.

 

[Valke2]

There is what you know, what you know you don’t know and what you don’t know you don’t know.

 

[JimG]

In fact, the divine persons do not have relations — they *are *relations, which subsist in the divine essence itself:
. . . .
If the individuation of the divine persons is reduced to anything other than relation (e.g. substance or accident — neither of which exist in God), or **if the divine persons are seen as autonomous, self-referential entities, rather than *being ***mutual relations, then it’s not surprising that contradictions ensue.

(emphasis mine) Thank you for restating this in a different way. I think that sometimes even Catholics tend to think of the persons of the trinity as three separate things. But they are not. They are relations within the one divine essence.

 

[dessert]

How do you folks get the quotes to show on you postings like that? This is very tedious.

Really, no strain, but could you (without rolling your eyes, explain how Christ is out of context when he says he will share with us (become Joint Heirs)?

The point with my little equation is that Pro-Universal (literally, For-Catholics) is correct. The 1 x1 x 1=1 argument is ridiculous logically. This equation is saying that when you have 1 entity x 1 set you get 1. And when you have 1 set of 1 and multiply that same set by 1, you still get 1. That one is an individual being Sein, as Heidigger says. What you are really trying to say is A x B x C = A. While that is certainly false! My point with my equation is you have God the Father, and His Only Begotten Son in the Flesh, Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost sharing with us as joint heirs in (as was pointed out Athanasius) Godhood. There is no such teaching as ‘Trinity’ in the Bible because God’s wish is to share with us Christs power (Heirs of God, Joint Heirs of Christ, Rom 8:17). Do you believe it is impossible for God to make us like Jesus (though certainly not his equal)?

They (Montalban and hamna2han) are trying to use the number system which can work but I thought my concept of the triplets would explain that God is equally 3 persons in one. As Jesus said also that if you have seen me you have seen the father.

Don’t let them confuse you. You should NOT have more than 3 ones on the side of the equation.
1a x1b x1c =1 also
1(abc) = 1 or 1=1abc
the abc is Father Son and Holy Spirit if you have more ones it would be d,e f, g etc.

When we say we have one of anything it represents something . We don’t just have 1x1x1x1 =1
numbers always represent an entity of somesort.
This is basic algebra when ever you have a number it represents a concept but not individual with God as He is divine all encompassing. You can’t do this with the other numbers such as 2,etc. because 1 and 0 are the binary numbers in the universe just as God is one in a Trinity. That is why we have the neccessary baptism in the name of the three persons, The name of the Father, The name of the Son and the name of the Holy Ghost.
If you don’t believe in the Triune God I quess you have 0.
Dessert

 

[dessert]

There is what you know, what you know you don’t know and what you don’t know you don’t know.

We do know that there ARE three in one and they do equal the Trinity so the answer is YES! Dessert

 

[Alexius]

Okay, so let me try to get this straight, the three persons are one because they are identical and of one nature…Am I correct? It makes some sense, but I think Hindus can use the same description for their gods. They have many gods of one nature…I think I am mixing up the proper definition of “persons” with human persons. I keep think of three identical yet individual human beings (like the angels depicted in Rublev’s OT Trinity)…I think this is confusing me…Should they be physically connected like siamese twins? Sorry, but that’s the only way I can ask it…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[dessert]

I have left the Church, and I asked exactly the same question you did. I can’t see any intellectually honest way to solve the problem.

At best, it’s “a mystery”…and if that’s the case, why would God force us to believe in something that makes no sense in order to achieve salvation?

Once again the non- Catholics are challenging the Catholics on the non- Catholic forum again only now it is the non-catholics fallen away Catholics challinging the Catholics on the non- Catholic forum on the Catholic forum.whewww

OK how about explaining how did God give a woman with one egg make three identical triplets with identical DNA, if you can wxplain that you will know the mystery of life for sure but please don’ t lose out on the salvation as God does not require much to ask of us as He has done did it all on the cross. I hope you change your minds thanks Dessert:thumbsup:

 

[dessert]

Okay, so let me try to get this straight, the three persons are one because they are identical and of one nature…Am I correct? It makes some sense, but I think Hindus can use the same description for their gods. They have many gods of one nature…I think I am mixing up the proper definition of “persons” with human persons. I keep think of three identical yet individual human beings (like the angels depicted in Rublev’s OT Trinity)…I think this is confusing me…Should they be physically connected like siamese twins? Sorry, but that’s the only way I can ask it…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Sorry I don’t know about Rublev’s I probably should but I don’t. I quess you should not say individual beings but I like to think of the persons like the fruits because that is what God gives us is the fruits. Grace and mercy suffering on the cross enlightenment from the spirit even to give us knowledge as to sin .does this help? sSo Hindus and I can’t critzize them because I don’t know them they think they are seperate godheads as individual not acting as one as only the Catholic faith has and if others did then they would be Catholic . Ddoes this make sense . I’m sorry you are struggling with this I hope it gets easier for you , I’m going to bed before Montalban comes back on. Goodnight and pray too dessert

 

[Alexius]

Once again the non- Catholics are challenging the Catholics on the non- Catholic forum again only now it is the non-catholics fallen away Catholics challinging the Catholics on the non- Catholic forum on the Catholic forum.whewww

Hopefully he’ll come back…

OK how about explaining how did God give a woman with one egg make three identical triplets with identical DNA,…

Well, you see…:whacky:

Thanks!

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[pro_universal]

dessert,

I appreciate your good will and I have seen your example. Three children who share DNA is wonderous, but it’s really not that hard to figure out…it’s the same as with twins. With material beings, multiple copies made of the same kind of material (like multiple coins all made of copper) are easy to imagine.

Unfortunately, none of these things yields and explanation of the trinity.

Alexius, I admire your intellectual honesty and your willingness to think hard about your faith. Whatever you decide for yourself, your sincere and thorough religious examinations will serve you well. I hope that you won’t have to face any personal criticism or rejection because of your doubts and willingness to ask the toughest question there is for Christianity.

 

[dessert]

Yes I hope Monty comes back too, Oh one more thing when we all get to heaven we will be above the angels and ruling over them and I don’t know where that scripture is ither, good night bless you nice talking to all of you !dessert