F
franklinf
Guest
Same reason as when they were formed and the same reason that they still operate: for the formation of traditional priests and the preservation and spreading of traditional RC
- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
The reason for their foundation is honorable. But there is a law in the Church that every religious order, every secular institute and every society of apostolic life must comply with. To exist as a valid institute within the Catholic Church your reason for existence must be approved by the Church.
Your institute must be of either diocesan right or pontifical right. Currently, the SSPX is a secular clerical institute of neither right. Therefore, its existence is out of compliance. This is what must be regularized.
Only the Pontiff has the authority to regularize any order, congregation, institute or society that is international. If they were local, the local bishop woould have the authority to do so.
I am very familiar with these rules, because my own community was founded 10 years ago. We came out of another community. To be recognized, the reason for our existence had to be approved by the local bishop, then the Vatican. We were founded as a community of penitents.
Today we are splitting again to form a new community that will dedicate itself to the protection of the unborn. But the brothers who want to do this cannot proceed until the bishop agrees that this is a worthy cause and that no other community can do this.
There is the crux of the matter. Church authorities must declare that the mission of the SSPX is necessary and no one else can do this, but them.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
H
Hyacinth_II
Guest
Jesus is working through our Pope. Have faith everyone. We will all be unified, with the Eastern Church and with the Priestly Society of St. Pius X. Harmony will return. Pray the rosary. Mary fights for her son’s church…you know all this. There is no use in postulating here. Love as Jesus commanded.
J
JReducation
Guest
Hyacinth is right. Jesus will make all things well. We must take the advice of John Paul II, “Be not afraid [to do what we should be doing and let the Holy Spirit do his part]”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
F
franklinf
Guest
What order are you? Are you a full brother (not in novitiate or third order)? What’s your charism?The reason for their foundation is honorable. But there is a law in the Church that every religious order, every secular institute and every society of apostolic life must comply with. To exist as a valid institute within the Catholic Church your reason for existence must be approved by the Church.
Your institute must be of either diocesan right or pontifical right. Currently, the SSPX is a secular clerical institute of neither right. Therefore, its existence is out of compliance. This is what must be regularized.
Only the Pontiff has the authority to regularize any order, congregation, institute or society that is international. If they were local, the local bishop woould have the authority to do so.
I am very familiar with these rules, because my own community was founded 10 years ago. We came out of another community. To be recognized, the reason for our existence had to be approved by the local bishop, then the Vatican. We were founded as a community of penitents.
Today we are splitting again to form a new community that will dedicate itself to the protection of the unborn. But the brothers who want to do this cannot proceed until the bishop agrees that this is a worthy cause and that no other community can do this.
There is the crux of the matter. Church authorities must declare that the mission of the SSPX is necessary and no one else can do this, but them.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Edit: Not meant to sound like an interogration, just curious. Obviously, no need to answer if too personal.
I
I_Believe
Guest
That is the bottom line I think. Well said.
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Could someone expand on this, please? As I have said before, I do want to see an increase in faith and reverence in the diocesan parishes. I will also say that, before I started participating in this forum, all I knew of the “Lafabvre movement” was that he was excommunicated in the eighties. I remember it, if not the details.
Where is the line from the SSPX, through the Pope, to the increase in diocesan reverence? I don’t get it. The SSPX isn’t known by most Catholics; if they were told it was Lafabvre’s movement, they would simply mention his excommunication. No difference between SSPX and the many Catholics who choose what they will be obedient to. Not throwing stones, just casting this the way people will see it.
Why is the SSPX and the EF the end all and be all fix to forty years of cafateria Catholism? We do desprately need revival and renewal (from the renewal) but if today SSPX was regularized, what would be the difference? I suppose quite a few Bishops with SSPX chapels might refuse to grant jurisdiction to the priests, seeing as they were a disobedient thorn in the side of the Bishop for years. What* then?*
If SSPX and the traditionalists (who want nothing to do with the rest of us) are supposed to save us from Vatican II, just how is that going to happen?
H
Hyacinth_II
Guest
The SSPX (Priestly Society of St. Pius X) was begun by Archbishop Lafabvre. He was disturbed by the changes in the Mass and liturgy that were taking place after Vatican II. At that time, many priests thought they had been given permission to “relax” tradition. These “new ways” appeared to many as blasphemy. Some priests were using grape juice instead of wine, others were using pita bread instead of hosts, others were holding Mass in places that seemed disrespectful…and the lack of unity, because of the loss of the use of Latin as the universal language of the Church (in the Mass) further seemed to threaten the unity of the Church. Introduction of the vernacular into the new Mass also brought with it the elimination of traditional prayers that had been in the Mass for hundreds…maybe thousands of years. This too caused these preists to feel that the Church has taken a “wrong road” regarding liturgical practices.
Archbishop Lafabvre was a Monsignor in Rome and objected to many of the changes that eventually passed during the events of Vatican II. The SSPX carries on his work to present their concerns and to preserve the Latin Mass and liturgy from being destroyed by “modernists” who would “disrespect God” in favor of pleasing modern man. He ordained 4 bishops, before he died, to carry on his Society’s work and to ordain more priests who were trained in the Latin Mass, and to perform the Sacrament of Confirmation. He did not intend them to be pastoral and have their own areas as we know bishops have. He always hoped that Rome would see the error in the road that had been taken.
It is their hope (the SSPX) that they can be in full communion with the Pope, but they sincerely feel that they are doing God’s will and are defending the faith, therefore they do not feel that any excommunications are valid in the eyes of God…and they defend that stance quoting various Canon Laws. You can go to their website and see this information.
They are Catholic Priests with full authority to perform sacraments. They have been ordained by a bishop who was ordained by the authority of the Catholic Church and has priestly succession documented. You can find Bishop Lafabvre on Facebook (yes, he is deceased, but he still has a page) and there is a link to his priestly credentials.
The SSPX have been leading spokespersons for the need to return to tradition. They are leading a traditional revival in the Church. Pope Benedict seems to understand their concerns and possibly even feels many of their concerns regarding the pious followers desires to attend the traditional Latin Mass and participate in it. He (Pope Benedict) seems also to understand why they are so upset with the incongruities that have grown out of Vatican II.
It has never been the purpose of the SSPX to merely be revolutionists of the Church. They have stated that they will happily concede to the Holy Father when they know that God is being given the respect and dignity that He deserves…through the reinstitution of those Catholic traditions that have been lost or have been de-emphisized to accommodate the modern world.
In other words, they don’t want to be disobedient. But, they feel they must be obedient to God first. They feel the Holy Spirit is leading them this way. They are prayerful and many rosarys have been said asking the BVM to help guide them.
The SSPX want nothing more than to join with ALL THE CHURCH. In paranthesis you said (who want nothing to do with the rest of us)…that is so far from the truth. They feel they are protecting the traditions and liturgy that Jesus began. They are protecting it for YOU…the rest of the church that has been involved in this new liturgy that does not (in their opinion) worthily give God praise and glory.
What can you do? Join with me in prayers for our Holy Father and for the Priestly Society of St. Pius X that they can, in their discussions, understand each other and resolve these issues. Pray the rosary asking the BVM for her intercession to make this discussion fruitful soon.
Jesus is acting through our Holy Father. I know that He will send his Holy Spirit to open the minds of these men who sincerely wish to serve him. Believe.
Archbishop Lafabvre was a Monsignor in Rome and objected to many of the changes that eventually passed during the events of Vatican II. The SSPX carries on his work to present their concerns and to preserve the Latin Mass and liturgy from being destroyed by “modernists” who would “disrespect God” in favor of pleasing modern man. He ordained 4 bishops, before he died, to carry on his Society’s work and to ordain more priests who were trained in the Latin Mass, and to perform the Sacrament of Confirmation. He did not intend them to be pastoral and have their own areas as we know bishops have. He always hoped that Rome would see the error in the road that had been taken.
It is their hope (the SSPX) that they can be in full communion with the Pope, but they sincerely feel that they are doing God’s will and are defending the faith, therefore they do not feel that any excommunications are valid in the eyes of God…and they defend that stance quoting various Canon Laws. You can go to their website and see this information.
They are Catholic Priests with full authority to perform sacraments. They have been ordained by a bishop who was ordained by the authority of the Catholic Church and has priestly succession documented. You can find Bishop Lafabvre on Facebook (yes, he is deceased, but he still has a page) and there is a link to his priestly credentials.
The SSPX have been leading spokespersons for the need to return to tradition. They are leading a traditional revival in the Church. Pope Benedict seems to understand their concerns and possibly even feels many of their concerns regarding the pious followers desires to attend the traditional Latin Mass and participate in it. He (Pope Benedict) seems also to understand why they are so upset with the incongruities that have grown out of Vatican II.
It has never been the purpose of the SSPX to merely be revolutionists of the Church. They have stated that they will happily concede to the Holy Father when they know that God is being given the respect and dignity that He deserves…through the reinstitution of those Catholic traditions that have been lost or have been de-emphisized to accommodate the modern world.
In other words, they don’t want to be disobedient. But, they feel they must be obedient to God first. They feel the Holy Spirit is leading them this way. They are prayerful and many rosarys have been said asking the BVM to help guide them.
The SSPX want nothing more than to join with ALL THE CHURCH. In paranthesis you said (who want nothing to do with the rest of us)…that is so far from the truth. They feel they are protecting the traditions and liturgy that Jesus began. They are protecting it for YOU…the rest of the church that has been involved in this new liturgy that does not (in their opinion) worthily give God praise and glory.
What can you do? Join with me in prayers for our Holy Father and for the Priestly Society of St. Pius X that they can, in their discussions, understand each other and resolve these issues. Pray the rosary asking the BVM for her intercession to make this discussion fruitful soon.
Jesus is acting through our Holy Father. I know that He will send his Holy Spirit to open the minds of these men who sincerely wish to serve him. Believe.
J
JReducation
Guest
The bold is mine.
I can sympathize and even agree with much of what you said above. But there is one point that must be clarified. The priests of the SSPX are validly ordained, but not licitly. Therefore, they do not have the power to absolve from sin or the faculties to witness marriage between two Catholics. These require that a bishop in full communion with the pope give them faculties to absolve and license to witness marriages. The SSPX bishops, by their own admission, do not have the episcopal powers to grant these. They accept that their current state is one that is undefined. While they are no longer excommunicated, the Holy Father continues to say that they no ecclesial jurisdiction. Without jurisdiction, a bishop cannot grant faculties to absolve or license to witness marriages.
The rest of what you said is very important and worthy of our prayers and support. I too believe that the men who become priests, in the SSPX or any other institute, order or diocese are good men who want to serve God and his people. It is unfortunate that they are caught in this undefined situation.
Let us pray for a resolution to the problem.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
H
Hyacinth_II
Guest
Thank you for the clarification. These things are confusing for we who are lay people.
J
JReducation
Guest
I have bad news.
These canons and rules are confusing for most of us. That’s why I majored in Mystical Theology and not Canon Law. Two years of Canon Law was enough to spin my head. LOLFraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
numealinesimpet
Guest
But there is such a thing, and we must take account of it. S. Thomas Aquinas writes in the Summa theologica (quoted in the Catholic Encyclopaedia):
According to St Thomas Aquinas, a Law is
•A precept of Right Reason
•For the Common Good
•Promulgated by the legitimate Authority.
Thus an attempt at a law that is either impossible, or unreasonable, or not directed to the Common Good, or not validly promulgated, is not a law at all but an abuse of authority which we are under a moral obligation to resist, otherwise we are participating in the sin by compliance with the offence against justice.
The law subsists in several categories, the later ones “inside” the earlier.
•First is Divine Law which flows from the Nature of God Himself and the Nature of Reality…
•Within this is Natural Law which flows from the nature and structure of Creation, and within this the nature and structure of Man, body and soul.
•Within this again is Ecclesiastical Law, which derives from Christ’s establishment of His Church.
•Ecclesiastical Law contains general principles and
•Particular or
•Positive Law which derive from the lawful authority, derived from Christ, of appointed lawmakers within the Church. In general, these are collected and set out in the code of Canon Law.
•Civil Law is that part of Positive Law that “Renders unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”. A Civil Law that contradicts or nullifies Ecclesiastical or Natural or Divine Law is ipso facto invalid.
Holy Mother Church helps us not least by providing Positive Laws to guide our daily conduct, and then enforcing them.
I am not writing this to criticise the Church, but to point to a fact which necessitates our being extra vigilant that we are truly hearing the authentic voice of the Bride of Christ, which can be none other than a faithful echo of that of the Bridegroom.
In the very nature of things, a Law cannot contradict one on a higher level of this hierarchy. An attempt to promulgate a Positive Law that contradicted the Natural or the Divine Law would be ipso facto invalid. Thus no conceivable Positive Law could legalise direct abortion.
The present argument is over whether the SSPX are justified in invoking these principles (I believe they are). But the principles as such are a rock-solid part of Catholic Theology.
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Thank you for your response. But, the question remains. If, after all these years SSPX has been unable to revive the Church, what will happen that will cause the ordained (priests and Bishops) to suddenly embrace tradition and pull the people in the pews with them? Or, vice versa?
I
I_Believe
Guest
For over 20 years there was a heavy stigma cast over the Society. How can you ask why they have not had a tremendous impact if they have been denied a chance to provide one ?
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Yes, that’s it, actually. The effects of your actions continue past the actions themselves. So, how will SSPX have any affect on anything in the future? Will people suddenly forget their origin and their disobedient/schismatic acts?
Even if they work through that, realistically, what will 500 priests actually do? They are all in their own chapels, their reason d’entre is that the rest of us are wrong and the NO is wrong and that they alone are preserving tradition. What happens next? What does SSPX want? A return to the Latin Mass? A return to piety? Most married Cathoilics of child bearing age use artificial birth control - will the TLM suddenly change that? What is the plan?
If you think that SSPX is going to be regularized, then what is the plan beyond that? Will SSPX ever be more than a niche?
What will ultimately bring our fellow Catholics back to believing what Catholics ought to believe?
6
603304529
Guest
Are you saying Paul, that there is no point in teaching the truth, cause no-one will listen??
You said: “Most married Cathoilics of child bearing age use artificial birth control - will the TLM suddenly change that?”
Of course a return to the TLM won’t fix that. But preaching that its a sin from the pulpit might help.
You said: “A return to piety?” A return to the TLM will almost certainly improve piety. The rubrics of the NO Mass (even without all the ad-hoc rubbish) breeds impiety, and a lack of respect for the Blessed Sacrament. If you deny this, then there is little I can do for you. Except suggest that you start reading: The Ottaviani Intervetion is a good start. Then “The Roar of the Lion”. Then maybe “The Horn of the Unicorn”…
You said: “Most married Cathoilics of child bearing age use artificial birth control - will the TLM suddenly change that?”
Of course a return to the TLM won’t fix that. But preaching that its a sin from the pulpit might help.
You said: “A return to piety?” A return to the TLM will almost certainly improve piety. The rubrics of the NO Mass (even without all the ad-hoc rubbish) breeds impiety, and a lack of respect for the Blessed Sacrament. If you deny this, then there is little I can do for you. Except suggest that you start reading: The Ottaviani Intervetion is a good start. Then “The Roar of the Lion”. Then maybe “The Horn of the Unicorn”…
6
603304529
Guest
Sorry, I should have clarified. The SSPX is obsessed with the truth. Bizarre really; they preach it all the time. They’re not apologising to anyone about it either.
My sister-in-law said the other day that she has never heard anything like “if you’re practicing ABC, you can’t receive Holy Communion”. She attends Mass every single Sunday, and has done for 32 years. Has also been heavily involved with youth gatherings, retreats, etc for the last 15 years.
All I can say, is I hope the SSPX’s obsession with truth is catching, cause the Novus Ordonians could do with a good dose.
My sister-in-law said the other day that she has never heard anything like “if you’re practicing ABC, you can’t receive Holy Communion”. She attends Mass every single Sunday, and has done for 32 years. Has also been heavily involved with youth gatherings, retreats, etc for the last 15 years.
All I can say, is I hope the SSPX’s obsession with truth is catching, cause the Novus Ordonians could do with a good dose.
C
Claire_from_DE
Guest
Just a question: does the SSPX claim the OF is invalid? I’ve heard all the reasons why they consider it inferior to the EF, but if they hold it is invalid can they reconcile with the Church? IMHO, it would be beneficial to have both forms of the mass available in our parishes.
However, one poster mentioned that a SSPX priest would fly 500 miles to give extreme unction to someone. This seems, well, extreme. Does this indicate that members of SSPX think only their sacraments are valid and the Church’s sacraments are not??
I think all those SSPX priests would be a blessing to my diocese if they were willing to go into (either as a regular assignment or on a rotating basis) the regular parishes and serve under our bishop. But if they claimed only the sacraments they administer are valid, that couldn’t work.
I ask this because I met a married couple who believe that the OF isn’t valid and would only attend the TLM on Sunday.
However, one poster mentioned that a SSPX priest would fly 500 miles to give extreme unction to someone. This seems, well, extreme. Does this indicate that members of SSPX think only their sacraments are valid and the Church’s sacraments are not??
I think all those SSPX priests would be a blessing to my diocese if they were willing to go into (either as a regular assignment or on a rotating basis) the regular parishes and serve under our bishop. But if they claimed only the sacraments they administer are valid, that couldn’t work.
I ask this because I met a married couple who believe that the OF isn’t valid and would only attend the TLM on Sunday.
P
PaulinVA
Guest
No, I am asking how the preaching of the ‘truth’ in SSPX chapels will reform/revitalize/renew the people not in SSPX chapels but in the diocesan parishes.
I agree with you one hundred percent! But that is not an SSPX thing, preaching the Truth about sin in diocesan parishes. That’s a diocesan thing. How do you renew the clergy to preach about Truth and sin? Where does that come from?
Well, since we have no experience of taking the present cadre of Catholics attending NO Masses and forcing them to attend the EF, your statement, while true for those that seek out the EF, might not be true for everyone.
How do you really renew the family that practices artificial birth control, dad golfs on Sunday morning, and, when he does come to Mass, he wears shorts and sandals, and the mother never goes to confession?
Realistically, what is the path to renewal in the Church?
6
603304529
Guest
Path to renewal: return to tradition.
Path to destruction: novelty after novelty, innovation, and rejection of the Faith of Our Fathers.
Path to destruction: novelty after novelty, innovation, and rejection of the Faith of Our Fathers.
- Status