Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

[Serap]

No one needs to be led by a noose like some are trying to do here. We can think for ourselves and know our Faith. I think Angry Atheist is more charitable than many Christians and he appears rather knowledgeble about Catholicism.

here here. I have so much respect for Angry Athiest!!!

 

[AthenaC]

Dear AthenaC,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

May I first say, dear sister, that I am truly sorry for the predicament in which you found yourself several years ago. You must have been extremely anxious and concerned for the welfare of your child, to say the very least, and I am sure that there was much earnest prayer and pouring out of your heart at the throne of heavenly grace. In times of great need such as that we certainly need a virile faith that will see us through our darkest hour, for nothing less will suffice or sustain us, to be sure.

However, at that point, dear sister, your found yourself in the position of a single women through no deliberate fault of your own, thus you were at liberty to seek employment to support yourself and your child. Presumably, your parish and the faithful could have helped with child care, at least until you again established yourself by securing a position. Did you have supportive parents or friends who could also have helped in this regard? Is there some government provision for child care for women who sadly find themselves in the desperate plight that you were in, I ask since I am not resident in the US and so am not au fait with the system over there?

My remarks were directed at families and not people such as yourself who find themselves in a desperate crisis situation, such as the one you describe, dear sister.

God bless and I do trust that your life and situation has improved now and that you are coping in the struggle to survive.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Thanks for your good wishes. Now, my question is - since I know from experience how vulnerable a woman and children are in what you claim is a woman’s “sphere ordained by God,” a woman who chooses to follow this “sphere ordained by God” philosophy could easily wind up dead, along with her children. How are you encouraging good stewardship of children when you say that in 100% of cases, the woman must stay home and leave herself and her children to be sitting ducks?

Taken a bit further, if a woman decides that such vulnerability is unacceptable and decides that the best way to safeguard her children (which were given to her by God, remember?) is to be the breadwinner even after marriage, is she is violation of her “sphere ordained by God”?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear AngryAtheist,

Cordial greetings and avery good day. Hope all is well.

Except that the paradigm of which I speak is derived from Sacred Scripture, a good source, and is the God ordained role of motherhood. We need, dear friend, to distinguish between things which essentially differ in their whole ideological standpoint.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Yet even (modern) Popes admit that women’s role in society isn’t (and shouldn’t be) limited to serving husbands and taking care of children (as Serap pointed out).
In contrast to your own stated views (and that of the Germans I mentioned).

 

[heart4home]

I see nothing odd about acknowledging a great philisophical look on life (that also fits into Catholic teaching). Angry Atheist is intelligent and deserves respect.

He comes on here and treats everyone with the utmost respect and I admire that. We have different spiritual beliefs, but maintain respect and that’s beautiful. There would be a lot less wars in the world if more of us were like that.

I agree that he is respectful, and I agree that philosophy fits into Catholic teaching. I also agree that he seems to be an intelligent person. I do not agree with many of his comments on this thread.

I do apologize though for making light of you doing so.

Respectful conversation is indeed a beautiful thing.

 

[Serap]

Thanks for your good wishes. Now, my question is - since I know from experience how vulnerable a woman and children are in what you claim is a woman’s “sphere ordained by God,” a woman who chooses to follow this “sphere ordained by God” philosophy could easily wind up dead, along with her children. How are you encouraging good stewardship of children when you say that in 100% of cases, the woman must stay home and leave herself and her children to be sitting ducks?

Taken a bit further, if a woman decides that such vulnerability is unacceptable and decides that the best way to safeguard her children (which were given to her by God, remember?) is to be the breadwinner even after marriage, is she is violation of her “sphere ordained by God”?

This is me. I’m not a breadwinner, but I’m a computer analyst and make good money. I would never give this up b/c I have no family to help me if anything were to happen. My husband and I also have a life insurance policy that if one of us died, the insurance would cover our mortgage.

I see it as insurance against possible hardships (my job)…I don’t call my job a “career” b/c I work to pay the bills. I don’t work to aspire to become a manager, etc. I may become a manager once my kids are older, but that’s different.

I would definitely teach my daughter to finish school and get a good job and keep it during marriage and kids. I would even volunteer to help her with her kids while she works.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear Serap,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response and for refering me to JPII ‘Letter to Women’, which I have now read.

It is not quite clear in the ‘Letter to Women’ to whom JPII is refering. It seems, dear sister, that he is referencing single women who work, since he has mentioned ‘mothers’ and ‘wives’ separately. If this is the case then I agree, for I accept that a single women must work and earn her living until and if she enters into holy wedlock. However, once she has married and has children, then it is desireable that she is, to use the biblical phraseology, a “keeper at home”, and on this St. Paul concurs with me. Moreover, there is no compelling reason to think that St. Paul’s counsel in the Pastoral’s is culturally bound and no longer relevant. Have never read of any orthodox Catholic commentator who has suggested this, but perhaps some have.

God bless and thankyou for your courteous response, dear sister.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

If that were true, it would mean that we should still support slavery (remember that Saint Paul endorsed the authority of slavemasters as well as husbands) as well.

 

[heart4home]

Yes, I also noticed that when Portrait read Letter to Women by Pope JP II, he also read it to fit into his personal beliefs of women’s roles in society.

We all do that though, don’t we? If we believe that women should be in the home, then we will read things with that paradigm in mind. If we believe that women should be able to have a career and kids, then we will read things with that paradigm in mind.

It’s human nature really. That’s why CAF has this same argument over and over again.

I agree with you here Serap. We all view things through our own life experiences and from where we are at on our own journey. I’d also like to point out just for clarity sake, that while I believe it is preferable generally for mother’s to be in the home if possible, especially with very small children, I also understand that is not always possible and there may even be exceptions as to when it would not be preferable.

I also do not subscribe that to be submissive, as I understand the Bible to speak of being so, that one would have to be at home. That should be a decision between husband and wife.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear Serap,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response and for refering me to JPII ‘Letter to Women’, which I have now read.

It is not quite clear in the ‘Letter to Women’ to whom JPII is refering. It seems, dear sister, that he is referencing single women who work, since he has mentioned ‘mothers’ and ‘wives’ separately. If this is the case then I agree, for I accept that a single women must work and earn her living until and if she enters into holy wedlock. However, once she has married and has children, then it is desireable that she is, to use the biblical phraseology, a “keeper at home”, and on this St. Paul concurs with me. Moreover, there is no compelling reason to think that St. Paul’s counsel in the Pastoral’s is culturally bound and no longer relevant. Have never read of any orthodox Catholic commentator who has suggested this, but perhaps some have.

God bless and thankyou for your courteous response, dear sister.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Bravo sir:thumbsup: that’s one of the most obviously biased interpretations of a (modern) official document that I have come across.

Do you have ANY good reason to think that the LETTER TO WOMEN is not addressed to women in general but instead simply particular groups of women?

 

[Serap]

I agree that he is respectful, and I agree that philosophy fits into Catholic teaching. I also agree that he seems to be an intelligent person. I do not agree with many of his comments on this thread.

I do apologize though for making light of you doing so.

Respectful conversation is indeed a beautiful thing.

hey no worries Heart4home. these threads get so passionate. it’s hard for us all.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Well if you look to a self-proclaimed “Angry Atheist” to explain your position on your Catholic Faith…

You shouldn’t be surprised, lots of people seem to think that former atheists make the best Catholic apologists, and the reverse often seems to be true as well

 

[Serap]

I agree with you here Serap. We all view things through our own life experiences and from where we are at on our own journey. I’d also like to point out just for clarity sake, that while I believe it is preferable generally for mother’s to be in the home if possible, especially with very small children, I also understand that is not always possible and there may even be exceptions as to when it would not be preferable.

I also do not subscribe that to be submissive, as I understand the Bible to speak of being so, that one would have to be at home. That should be a decision between husband and wife.

agreed. wow…us women get such a tough gig eh? we feel guilty no matter what we do and don’t do…

 

[AngryAtheist8]

But if women are excluded from society (like the Arabs do) why should they care?

Dear thewanderer,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

It is the whole radical femenist ideology that makes women feel that they are unfilled if they are not a part of the workforce. Moreover, this warped thinking has a tendency to speak disparragingly of the role of mother and wife and it does not accept that marriage is the bedrock of society. This is because, dear sister, it has a fanatical and unhealthy obssesion with equality and a woman’s right to self-determination at all costs.

Women who are homemakers, dear sister, are making a tremendous contribution to society, inasmuch as they are providing stable homes for their children where they are always on the scene and available. This is surely something that will yeild beneficial results in the lives of children as they develop and will help them to grow up to be well-adjusted adults, with little or no emotional disturbances. Whilst there are manifold reasons for behavioural problems in young adults, it admits of no doubt that a working mother who is hardly present in the formative years of her children can have a negative impact upon them.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Would you mind clearing something up for me?

~8 years ago, my husband abandoned me. I was homeless with a baby in Fairbanks, Alaska, in October. (By the way, this is when winter begins, and it was already -20F.)

What was my “proper sphere ordained by God” at that point and beyond?

If I understand Portrait’s reasoning, according to him you should have turned to a male relative for help at that point.

 

[Serap]

But if women are excluded from society (like the Arabs do) why should they care?

sometimes I think traditional Catholics think that we (women) should be treated the same way that women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

 

[heart4home]

You shouldn’t be surprised, lots of people seem to think that former atheists make the best Catholic apologists, and the reverse often seems to be true as well

Very true. I will pray that one day you will be among us. I also agree with your point above in regards to being careful as to how we interpret scripture using slavery as an example.

As Catholics we are blessed to have great apologists, as you rightly pointed out, and they should be our guide in understanding how to interpret scripture and what was cultural and what was not.

 

[Portrait]

So if this were the case then there would be no point of women even going to college? because in the end, the majority would be mothers - which although is a very difficult job does not require a degree…
Rye

Dear Rye,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

Young women should attend educational institutions, dear friend, since some of them will never marry and so will be required to support themselves, whether they live at home with parents or on their own. Nevertheless, marriage is the norm for women, for God has implanted a natural instinct in both sexes for close companionship and intimacy, and this naturally results in marriage. In marriage, man and woman give and receive mutual help in sharing and bearing life’s duties and difficulties. In this sacred union, they satisfy the natural desire to start a family and to bestow their love upon their offspring, born as the fruit of their love. Moreover, within marriage, human passions are well-directed and elevated to a noble purpose. If it is not good for a man to be alone, then neither is it good for a woman. Let us remember that motherhood is a divine vocation which undoubtedly calls for great sacrifices, but it should not on that account be selfishly avoided just so that a woman can pursue her own career.

The passages in the Pastoral Epistles relating to the role of women, dear friend, have perpetual validity because they are not culturally conditioned, no more than St. Paul’s teaching on male headship is culturally conditioned. Some modern Catholics are fond of saying, it is quite true, that St. Paul’s teaching on women and male headship was only valid for his generation and cannot be regarded as binding upon our own. It is also true that the attempt is sometimes made to strengthen this culturally bound argument by an appeal to slavery. This argument is fundamentally flawed, however, as one would expect coming as it does from the liberal/femenist stable. Briefly, the analogy between women and slaves is jolly inexact on two counts. First, women are not chattel property, bought and sold in the market place, as slaves were. Secondly, though St. Paul sought to regulate the behaviour of slaves/masters, he nowhere appealed to the Scriptures in defence of slavery, whereas he certainly did base his teaching about masculine headship on the biblical doctrine of creation.

St. Paul’s statement respecting women being “workers at home” (Tit. 2: 5) occurs amidst other general requirements, that is to say, being loving towards husband and children, being chaste, being kind and self-controlled etc. Now clearly no man would deny that these have perpetual validity, thus what warrant do we have in making an exception with women being “workers at home”? Moreover, you will observe that St. Paul gives as a reason for these requirements, “that the word of God may not be discredited” (Tit. 2: 5), in other words, improper conduct on the part of young married women would easily lead to slanderous remarks with respect to the religion of Christ. Thus it is this, and not any historical context, that was the whole raison d’etre for his instructions, including the one about women being “workers at home”.

St. Paul wrote, we must remember, under divine inspiration and so it is both irreverent and unwise, my dear friend, to think he was “a tad bit mysoginistic”. Such sentiments will likely take us down the liberal path of rejecting passages of Sacred Scripture that do not fit in with our own modern day pre-suppositions and prejudices. It is a most imprudent road to go down and leaves us to judge what is applicable and binding in Sacred Scripture. The fact is, dear friend, that there is timeless teaching that is as relevant today as it was then and this applies to the ethical requirements of that Titus passage and others, which have continued validity.

So called ‘house husbands’ are unnatural and bizzare and are a denial of God-given male masculinity and should therefore be eshewed and denounced in the strongest terms. Being a homemaker, like baby rearing, is exclusivley a feminine preserve into which men should not trespass. Needless to say, it does not follow from this that the husband should never wash a dish or undertake some domestic chores, especially if his wife is indisposed for a while. However, his duty is to earn the money to support his family, he is not called upon to be a “worker at home”, for that would be to adopt a feminine role which is contrary to the natural order of things.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[heart4home]

sometimes I think traditional Catholics think that we (women) should be treated the same way that women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

I’m not saying that some don’t, but I don’t think most do. I think that some just believe that the more traditional roles, WHEN, followed with love and charity with respect and love for each other, lead to a more moral society with shared values.

However, I’m sure we could spend hours finding lots of holes in that theory. I guess I really mean, if we were in a perfect world, and possessing that perfection in holiness that we are suppossed to be striving for.

 

[AthenaC]

This is me. I’m not a breadwinner, but I’m a computer analyst and make good money. I would never give this up b/c I have no family to help me if anything were to happen. My husband and I also have a life insurance policy that if one of us died, the insurance would cover our mortgage.

I see it as insurance against possible hardships (my job)…I don’t call my job a “career” b/c I work to pay the bills. I don’t work to aspire to become a manager, etc. I may become a manager once my kids are older, but that’s different.

I would definitely teach my daughter to finish school and get a good job and keep it during marriage and kids. I would even volunteer to help her with her kids while she works.

Yup. I am the breadwinner, and my husband stays home. In my profession, there are plenty of women who are the breadwinners and who have stay-at-home dads for husbands. I think the larger question (for BOTH parents) is to make sure that raising the children well is the FIRST priority. Whatever a particular family does to make this happen is fine - it’s up to them to figure out what works best. In many cases this can involve a stay-at-home parent, since it makes the logistics of childcare infinitely easier, but it doesn’t have to.

What I don’t understand, is that in a Church founded by Jesus, who treated women as equals and moral agents in their own right, the onus for EVERYTHING falls on women - childcare, submission in marriage, modesty, chastity. Men are naturally good and righteous and it’s all the woman’s fault. And when men abuse their privileged status and take it out on the woman, it may not be the woman’s fault (although it probably is), but it is certainly once again the woman’s place to meekly submit to the circumstances created by the men around her.

Frankly I thank God (literally) that I live in an age where I can take control of my life (and my kids’ lives), and am treated with the professional respect I deserve in the workplace, which allows me to fulfill my God-given responsibilities at home by providing a place to live and food to eat. I shudder to think of what would happen if I went through what I went through 50 years ago. I probably would not be alive to tell my story.

 

[Portrait]

As much as I may vehemently disagree with you, I have to hand it to you for your persistence in displaying a polite attitude.

Dear VeritasLuxMea,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for that.

May I just say, my dear friend, that I greatly respect your charity. We must all strive earnestly, given our sinful disposition, to disagree without being disagreable and enngage in discussion without rancour. Amidst all of our pious disagreements we still brethren in Christ.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear AthenaC,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

May I first say, dear sister, that I am truly sorry for the predicament in which you found yourself several years ago. You must have been extremely anxious and concerned for the welfare of your child, to say the very least, and I am sure that there was much earnest prayer and pouring out of your heart at the throne of heavenly grace. In times of great need such as that we certainly need a virile faith that will see us through our darkest hour, for nothing less will suffice or sustain us, to be sure.

However, at that point, dear sister, your found yourself in the position of a single women through no deliberate fault of your own, thus you were at liberty to seek employment to support yourself and your child. Presumably, your parish and the faithful could have helped with child care, at least until you again established yourself by securing a position. Did you have supportive parents or friends who could also have helped in this regard? Is there some government provision for child care for women who sadly find themselves in the desperate plight that you were in, I ask since I am not resident in the US and so am not au fait with the system over there?

My remarks were directed at families and not people such as yourself who find themselves in a desperate crisis situation, such as the one you describe, dear sister.

God bless and I do trust that your life and situation has improved now and that you are coping in the struggle to survive.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

So do you support the Catholic Planet viewpoint on women or not?