Three questions from a protestant friend

[tris183]

I was in a discussion with a protestant friend at work and he asked me three questions that I didn’t know the answer to. I was wondering if maybe you could help me. It could be that my understanding of the Church’s teaching on these issues is misguided.

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions

 

[NotWorthy]

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

John the Baptist asked Jesus a similar question in Matthew: Jesus said to him in reply, "Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."
The differences in the two Baptisms are described in the Gospel of Luke by John the Baptist,

*John answered them all, saying, "I am baptizing you with water, but one mightier than I is coming. I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire. *

 

[jmcrae]

I was in a discussion with a protestant friend at work and he asked me three questions that I didn’t know the answer to. I was wondering if maybe you could help me. It could be that my understanding of the Church’s teaching on these issues is misguided.

I hope this helps …

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

St. Paul is using a technique known as “hyperbole” - his point is that none of his readers can claim to be perfect, and that they (we) have a lot of work to do in our journey towards holiness.

He not only omitted Jesus and Mary, he was also omitting everyone under the age of seven, and everyone who has a mental disability that prevents them from being capable of committing sin. His audience understood who he meant - “everyone” was the “everyone” of us.

As another example, one could say, “Everyone saw Pirates of the Carribean last summer,” and it would be a true statement (because everyone who watches movies of that sort did see it), even though all of us know at least a few people who didn’t see it - too young, too old, or simply not interested in movies of that kind.

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

So that no one could claim to be too good to be baptized. He was setting the example for us. Also, in addition to washing us of our sins, including original sin, Baptism also initiates us into the Christian covenant. It wouldn’t do for Jesus not to have been initiated into His own covenant, would it?

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

What Jesus did on the Cross was make it possible for us to be saved - obviously, we still have to follow Him - we still have to be initiated into His covenant at some point, and repent of our sins at some point, and we also have to be perfected in holiness. These things didn’t happen instantly, the moment He died on the Cross. He created the method by which our sins are forgiven (through His blood on the Cross), but we don’t gain access to it until we begin to participate in the Sacraments and in the Christian life. But every time we participate in the Sacraments, it is Jesus who is cleansing us from our sins, and every time we do works of mercy, it is Jesus who is making us more holy. These actions aren’t “works of the law” but rather, floodgates of grace.

 

[NotWorthy]

St. Paul is using a technique known as “hyperbole” - his point is that none of his readers can claim to be perfect, and that they (we) have a lot of work to do in our journey towards holiness.

He not only omitted Jesus and Mary, he was also omitting everyone under the age of seven, and everyone who has a mental disability that prevents them from being capable of committing sin. His audience understood who he meant - “everyone” was the “everyone” of us.

As another example, one could say, “Everyone saw Pirates of the Carribean last summer,” and it would be a true statement (because everyone who watches movies of that sort did see it), even though all of us know at least a few people who didn’t see it - too young, too old, or simply not interested in movies of that kind.

To further the point, St. Paul is said to be quoting Psalm 14 which is clearer in the use of hyperbole:

The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one. Will these evildoers never learn? They devour my people as they devour bread; they do not call upon the LORD.

We know from the Old Testament that there were numerous people that were rigtheous and did what was right. We know that Solomon was wise. We know that numerous others sought God.

 

[JimG]

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

I think that forgiveness is not the same as removing “debt.” A storekeeper may willingly forgive a shoplifter from the depth of his heart. The shoplifter receives forgiveness, yet there remains a debt–the merchandise must be returned or paid for.

In another thread we were discussing Paul’s comment that he “makes up in his own body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.” He is talking about his own suffering, and they are given value by being united to Christ’s suffering. All sin has lingering effects which remain even after forgiveness, just as a car which has been in a wreck is out alignment even after being pulled out of the ditch and put back on the road.

 

[Petergee]

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

All sins cause evil effects on the sinner and on others. That is why they are sins. If you sin by punching your brother in the eye, and then he forgives you, his forgiveness won’t make his black eye go away, and you will feel remorse every time you see it.

 

[Pax]

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

In Romans 3:9-12, Paul says that all are under the power of sin. This is a reference to the “Fall” and the burden of original sin. Paul is speaking of Jews and gentiles as equal in their damaged state of inheritance, and that the Jews need grace and redemption just as much as the gentiles. All of mankind needs redemption, and man is prone to sin, but this does not mean that every person that has ever lived has sinned.

In Romans 3:9-12, Paul is quoting from Psalm 14:1-5. Paul makes reference to the Psalm by saying, “as it is written,” and he would not have made that remark or quoted so much of the passage word for word, if he did not intend for us to look to the psalm in order to place his own statements within the Old Testament context. The context of Psalm 14 is made clear in the first verse which states, **“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ **They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.” Then in verse four and five the psalm reads, “Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord? There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” Psalm 14 clearly distinguishes between the evil doers (i.e. the fool that says there is no God) and “my people”….”the generation of the righteous.”

We know that babies, small children, and the mentally retarded have not sinned.

The wages of sin is death yet Enoch and Elijah never died but were taken up to heaven body and soul. It would seem that they may be exceptions. Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus and bore him in her womb. It is appropriate that she would be saved from original sin at the moment of her conception and that she would be free from sin thereafter. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb. Those that are “filled” with the Holy Spirit do not sin.

In 1 John 3:6 the apostle says, “No one who abides in him sins”
John goes on to say in verse 9 that “No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.” If these passages apply to us then they surely apply in a special way to the mother of Jesus.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

When Jesus is baptized by John we are shown the perfect example of what happens to us at baptism. Jesus baptism fulfills all righteousness and forever makes holy our own baptisms. The narrative of Jesus baptism tells us that when He emerged from the water the Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove, and that the Father says “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Likewise, we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism and we become adopted sons and daughters of God.[Gal 4:4-7] As adopted sons and daughters we become members of the household just as the Jews became members of the chosen people through circumcision. This is made clear in COLOSSIANS 2:11-12 which says:

“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” Look through scripture and see how we are part of God’s family as adopted sons and daughters. This is one of the reasons we are called brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

Also, God forgave King David of his sin (adultery and murder) but still punished David and Bathsheba by causing their child to die shortly after birth. This was further temporal punishment even after Forgiveness had been given.

 

[christcnection1]

I strongly encourage you to check out this free Catholic cd ministry. I suggest you order “Mary and Purgatory, The Sacraments and the Bible, and Two-Minute Apologetics.” (You may want to order all of them; they are fantastic!) They will be extremely informatative for you, and great to hand out to our “separated brethren.”

(You will find answers to your questions through these resources and so much more.)

I am a former Evangelical and have found these free resources to be among the best and most straightforward Catholic apologetics out there.

God bless!

biblechristiansociety.com/

 

[Spirithound]

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

This is indeed hyperbole. Read a bit further (sorry, I don’t know how much further), and you will see the use of the word “all” regarding being saved in Jesus, so we can safely conclude that “all” doesn’t necessarily mean “all”.

 

[Paulusa]

[Why We Sin After Jesus Said, “It Is Finished.” (Part one)
First Thessalonians chapter 5, verse 23 states, “May you entirely, spirit, soul and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit insures us that human beings are more than merely flesh and bone.
The whole answer is based upon the body being SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY.
With Jesus’ death two thousand years ago, we find we too have died to sins. In His resurrection from the dead, we too are promised resurrection from the dead. With His ascension into heaven, we too shall be received into heaven to be with our heavenly Creator. Hebrews 10:19-20 This is the hope of our glory in Christ Jesus.
What was the point of the sacrifice? My dilemma was all mankind’s dilemma as well. “Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?” Romans 7:24
Looking for the answer in the Bible, this was what I’d discovered. It’s simply this:
This would not be completed in a one step process; rather, first our spirits must be made intimate with Him again, so that our soul and body could follow. For John 6:63 says, “It is the spirit that gives life while the flesh is of no avail.” and “Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one [Adam], we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one [Jesus]. 1 Cor 15:49 After His death, we received the holy Spirit within ourselves through faith in Jesus’ resurrection! For it is no longer I who live but Christ Jesus [by the holy Spirit] who lives in me. Gal 2:20 The holy Spirit would guide us in all things: conscience, truth of all that is of God, sin of the world. That we may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect. Romans 12:2
Meantime we sin. But it is no longer the same. We now have forgiveness, whereas prior to the second covenant, we only had conscientiousness of sin. Hebrews 3:20 As it “is impossible for the blood of goats and bulls to take away sins. Not only did His death reunite us intimately with the Father in our spirit, but Jesus would continually cover our sins while we were still in the world. In this way we would be found “without spot or blemish (immaculate) at His coming.” And it is with His Spirit that we are sealed until the day of redemption. Ephesians 4: 30 For He has given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment. 2 Cor 1: 22 The full messianic benefits of spirit, soul, and body will be received at the resurrection of our bodies in His second coming. ** Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin **but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. Hebrews 9: 27-28 Accordingly “our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself. Philippians 3:20-21 We ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8: 23
It is with this understanding that I realize the need to “drive my body and train it.” 1 Cor 9:27 It is not always an easy task because it is a daily task! Paul writes, “ For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self [my spirit], but I see in my members [my body] another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Romans 7:17-23
The freedom we receive in His Word is beyond what we could ask or think. He is able to keep us from stumbling Jude 1:24 by His Spirit that lives in us. Our hope in glory is assured! This we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, which reaches into the interior behind the veil, where Jesus has entered on our behalf as forerunner, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6:19
For we “conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. Romans 8:39 With this knowledge we can all have shorter confessions.
Would not our next question be, “Why work with installments?” After all, while we do conquer daily by His grace and our response to it, we, nonetheless, see the work of the enemy all too well trying continually to seek and destroy all that is good. And we have to be honest, not everyone does succeed in Him. This too can destroy our faith. Why Lord do you wait? Why not have redeemed our bodies on the cross as well? I put a much briefer answer in another quick post. Hope it helps.

 

[Paulusa]

This is part two to the question of why we sin after Jesus said, " It is finished." Now that that question was answered in part one. I left the question at the end of it for part two.
It was. “Why did Father God WAIT to redeem our bodies after the cross of His Son? Why did He choose two installments?”
I was in a bit of a silly mood once. I wanted my Father God to be ever so intimate with me so I asked him two simple first grade questions. (Yes, I was an adult at the time!) The ever popular, “What is your favorite color?” and “What is your favorite number?” He spoke matter-of-factly, “I can’t appreciate one color without the others, so I don’t have a favorite.” Hmm. Good answer. I never considered that Father God. And the other?
(Here is what helped me understand Heb 11:39-40) “What is your favorite number?” He said in an ineffable tone of joy, “As many souls as I’ve made.” I was instantaneously filled with warmth and a glow was about me.
Hebrews chapter 11 verses 39 and 40 answered my question of why Father God worked his plan in a two part installment: Yet all these [great saints], though approved because of their faith did not receive what had been promised [complete redemption]; God had foreseen something better for us, so that without us they should not be made perfect.
Our Savior’s request to His Father before His sacrifice was, “I pray not only for them [those disciples with Him at the time], but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us… John 20-21.
You see, I hadn’t been born yet, neither had you! Our Father has predestined His family and we are all apart of it. We shall all receive the fullness of Spirit, Soul and Body at the same time!
Praise and all glory be to Him and to His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen.

 

[MTD]

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

I think an important factor in the Immaculate Conception that is often overlooked is the fact that Christ redeemed Mary. In fact, she had even more need of the Redemption, so to speak, because her redemption was preventative rather than liberating, like ours. So in other words, Christ’s sufferings were applied to Mary in such a way that she was prevented from contracting Original Sin, but if Christ’s sufferings had been applied to her in a liberating manner as they were with us, she too would have contracted Original Sin. And the reason she could share in the fruits of the Redemption in this preventative manner is because the redemptive sufferings of Christ transcend time.

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

Jesus was baptized by St. John the Baptist because by this baptism He was signifying His taking on of our offenses with a view to making perfect reparation for them to the Father. It is expressed in these Scriptures:

2 Cor. 5:21

“Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.”

Isa. 53:4-12

"Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

"All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth. And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

“Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.”

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

In Col. 1:24 we read: “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.” In other words, the infinite merits of Christ are applied to us through our sufferings united to His. We must participate in His sufferings in order to participate in all the merits of His sufferings.

Maria

 

[mkcockrell]

Jesus was all about setting examples of perfection, in holiness, in service to others,following His Father’s Will, etc. and in so doing, transforming and, dare I say challenging our understanding, while revealing His Father.

As for Baptism and the washing away of our sins thereby, Jesus wanted it to be seen as a holy service to others to be performed, even though Jesus didn’t need for it to wash away His sin. When Peter objected to Christ wanting to wash his feet, Christ told Peter that unless I do this, you will have no life with me.

As humans we rarely do what we don’t feel is necessary to do, especially if it means going out of our way or out on a limb to do so. And Peter didn’t think it was necessary or approriate for Jesus, his master, his teacher, to lower himself to do this but Jesus had no delusions of grandeur. He knew, by human standards He had already humbled himself as God to become one like us. Peter had a thing about boats…he was either missing them or jumping out of them!

Lest we forget, even Mary Magadalen wept and washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and annointed his feet with expensive oils, predictive of what would be done for His interment by the women who went to the tomb on Easter Sunday.

Recall that at his trial prior to His Crucifixion, even Pilate said “I find no fault in this man!” Can we speculate that more was meant than was said with that remark? Perhaps! His Bloody Sacrifice fulfilled the sin offering required by The Old Testament Law, while as in Baptism we die to sin in Jesus (because he was baptized) we also fulfill the New Covenant embodied in Him who died to atone for our sins and we rise to new life in Him.

“Behold, I make all things new!”

No more shall blood need be shed to atone for sin, that perfect sacrifice has been accomplished.

Interestingly, some translations of Jesus’ final utterance from the Cross has, “It is accomplished!” not, “It is finished!”

That may be more appropriate to the end of a mission to say, accomplished, rather than the completion of everything that is “finished” in the context of the end of things.

Have I slipped off the sled and taken you with me? I hope not!

Pax bonum!

Michael

 

[NotWorthy]

Interestingly, some translations of Jesus’ final utterance from the Cross has, “It is accomplished!” not, “It is finished!”

That may be more appropriate to the end of a mission to say, accomplished, rather than the completion of everything that is “finished” in the context of the end of things.

Have I slipped off the sled and taken you with me? I hope not!

Pax bonum!

Michael

Micael, well put! The only thing I’d like to comment on is “It is finished”. I understood the most accurate translation is “It is consummated”. This would call to mind the “Cup of Consummation” that Jesus DIDN’T drink at the Last Supper (the 4th cup of the Seder meal).

Notice, Jesus says, “It is finished” immediately after drinking the vinegar, which is what? Wine that has gone bad. Is Jesus saying that the first Mass (the Last Supper) is ended? Go in peace to love and serve others?

 

[El_camino]

These questions are easy and require a very short answer.

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

So, if it says ALL have sinned, then it must INCLUDE JESUS as well then!! right?? NOOOT! Obviously NOT… Paul was not talking about the inmaculate conception, neither Jesus’ remaining sinless, he was trying to make the point that ALL men need the saving grace of GOD to be saved. That is all… The bible also says, “if your eye makes you sin, gouge it out”, should we do that? NO… It is obviously a HYPERBOLE, a modism to make a point, just like Rom 3 is.

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

Christ being baptized is actually what gave meaning and power to baptism. This is why when John the baptist refused to Baptize Jesus, Jesus said to go ahead and do it so that God’s will may be fullfiled. IF Christ had not gotten baptized then baptism would be what protestants believe it is … just water being poured on someone’s head.

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

One must not confuse FORGIVENESS, which you get as soon as God forgives you with SANTIFICATION, which occurs most of the time through suffering be it here on earth or before entering heaven in Purgatory. Santification is a PROCESS, and this is something most protestants accept. Purgatory is simply the last stage of the process of sanctification.

Many blessings,

E.C.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I think that forgiveness is not the same as removing “debt.” A storekeeper may willingly forgive a shoplifter from the depth of his heart. The shoplifter receives forgiveness, yet there remains a debt–the merchandise must be returned or paid for.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

This argument doesn’t take into account that Christ’s Sacrifice blots out, or completely removes, the sin. When something is blotted out completely, there’s nothing left that needs to be repaid or atoned for.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I was in a discussion with a protestant friend at work and he asked me three questions that I didn’t know the answer to. I was wondering if maybe you could help me. It could be that my understanding of the Church’s teaching on these issues is misguided.

First Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness? What I am confused about here is the neccessity of suffering here on earth and Purgatory after death if our debt has been completely and perfectly repaid.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions

On Romans 3, ask him why it does no apply to Jesus? also, ask him to explain Enoch, Elijah, were they too exceptions? after this, it is up to you to prove that Mary was also an execption too.

John baptised Jesus as the beginning of his ministry, it was an anoniting to start his mission on earth. examine OT for prophets and kings being anonited, see Psalms 2

If you were to murder someone for example, people hurted ( family, community ) may forgive you, but you would still have to go to jail for it.

 

[mkcockrell]

Micael, well put! The only thing I’d like to comment on is “It is finished”. I understood the most accurate translation is “It is consummated”. This would call to mind the “Cup of Consummation” that Jesus DIDN’T drink at the Last Supper (the 4th cup of the Seder meal).

Notice, Jesus says, “It is finished” immediately after drinking the vinegar, which is what? Wine that has gone bad. Is Jesus saying that the first Mass (the Last Supper) is ended? Go in peace to love and serve others?

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it!. The only clarification I’d suggest to you is Jesus’ refusal of the wine/vinegar (sour wine) is merely a continuation of his assertion that He would not drink of the fruit of the vine again until I drink it anew in My father’s Kingdom. Rife with symbolism and substance…he rejects bitterness and looks to the sweet; disdains the old to make way for the new; the old covenant has passed away; He embodies the new…"your decendants of old ate manna and yet died; behold I make all things new; one does not put new wine into old wine skins…etc. See what I mean, replete with great parallels and insights.

I have seen speculation that more than for addressing thirst, the gall offered up on the sponge did more to revive his alertness, much as smelling salts or an ammonia inhaler might. But I prefer to consider the former reasons, even though the latter more practical reason may have prevailed. It also points up the fact that Jesus was completely in the Father’s Will as to when He died and no amount of intervention by human action would now change that outcome. More symbolism…once Jesus mounted that gibbet Pilate, the Sanhedrin, The High Priests and the Roman crucifiers “washed their hands” of Jesus thinking that would be the last time they would have to deal with Him. Small wonder why they were "quaking in their sandals on Easter morning when the stone was rolled away! Don’t know about you, but I have chills just thinking about it, let alone putting it in this space!. I imagine the Gospel writers felt the same or even more when recalling and chronicling the events of that first Easter!

Pax vobiscum Christi!

Michael C.