Three questions from a protestant friend

[mlchance]

Every single question is based on false premises arising from an imperfect understanding of authentic Biblical teaching.

IFirst Question - In the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Church teaches that Mary was concieved without original sin and that she did not commit a sin during her life here on earth. How can we say this and still believe what St. Paul discusses in Romans 3 in saying that “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God?”

The Apostle Paul obviously doesn’t mean that every single person ever has sinned. Jesus Christ, for example, never sinned. There is no rational basis to conclude that a newborn infant has ever sinned. Saint Paul states the general rule, but not the exceptions.

Second Question - If the purpose of Baptism is the removal of original sin and the restoration of the soul back into a state of communion with God, why is it that Jesus had to be baptized by John?

Jesus’ baptism was not a Christian baptism of water and the Spirit. The Baptizer himself makes this clear.

Third Question - If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins, both giving us the opportunity for forgiveness and paying the debt owed by our sin, why are there lingering effects of sin after forgiveness?

Christ’s death pays our “sin debt,” but it does not prevent us from sinning. Scripture is quite clear that we require ongoing purification throughout our lives. The idea that a Christian can do whatever he wants, no matter how sinful, and still gets a “Get Out of Hell Free” card is both absurd and quite contrary to Scripture.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Petergee]

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

This argument doesn’t take into account that Christ’s Sacrifice blots out, or completely removes, the sin. When something is blotted out completely, there’s nothing left that needs to be repaid or atoned for.

Context, context, context. The second half of the verse tells us when these “times of refreshing” will be: when Christ comes again to lead the just into Heaven, AFTER the effects of their sins have been removed.

If you murder a man, and then sincerely repent, confess and receive absolution for your sin, God does not make it as if your sin never happened and bring the murdered man back to this life! Some of the suffering which the sinner justly receives occurs in this life, and some in the next. Some sinners may sin extremely grievously and constantly and yet receive almost no just punishment in this life. Great will be their punishment in the next.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Context, context, context. The second half of the verse tells us when these “times of refreshing” will be: when Christ comes again to lead the just into Heaven, AFTER the effects of their sins have been removed.

If you murder a man, and then sincerely repent, confess and receive absolution for your sin, God does not make it as if your sin never happened and bring the murdered man back to this life! Some of the suffering which the sinner justly receives occurs in this life, and some in the next. Some sinners may sin extremely grievously and constantly and yet receive almost no just punishment in this life. Great will be their punishment in the next.

What I’m trying to tell you is that the offense is blotted out completely when God forgives you. This goes far beyond just being forgiven. You actually walk away with a clean record.

 

[NotWorthy]

What I’m trying to tell you is that the offense is blotted out completely when God forgives you. This goes far beyond just being forgiven. You actually walk away with a clean record.

This wasn’t demonstrated when David had his little tete-a-tete’ with Bathsheba. God showed us that there is a temporal punishment that still needed to be meeted out.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If Jesus can off His Body and Blood to the disicples Before the Cross–why can’t He redeem Mary before He was born?

God is bigger than time!

Also reconcile Colossians 1:24 with it is finished. That verse alone gives proof that No–Jesus didn’t do everything on the Cross–that’s why He wants us to bear crosses even today!

 

[Petergee]

What I’m trying to tell you is that the offense is blotted out completely when God forgives you. This goes far beyond just being forgiven. You actually walk away with a clean record.

No one here, and certainly not Christ’s Church and the Bible it produced, is disputing that a forgiven person has a clean record. We are merely refuting your non-Biblical idea that when God forgives a man’s sin, God retrospectively adjusts everything to make it as if the man’s sin never happened and had no effect on either the man himself or others.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

David paid the price for his sin After God forgave him!

 

[Chris_LaRock]

David paid the price for his sin After God forgave him!

That is because the perfect blood atonement of Jesus had not yet taken place. At that time, Jews were still sacrificing bulls and lambs.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

So why did God punish David after He forgave him? Are you going to tell me that God didn’t think His forgiveness was enough?

He forgave Isaiah–a man of unclean lips by touching his lips to burning coal Before Jesus’ atonement on the cross.

Was God wrong for doing that?

God required David to pay in the form of temporal punishment after He forgave him.

Jesus’ atonement had nothing to do with David still having to pay the temporal punishment for his sins–just like if we commit a crime and are sorry for it and God forgives us–we still have the pay the price of temproal punishment here on Earth by possibly paying a fine or going to jail.

Not all crimes are temporally paid for on Earth. Those that are not or are only partially paid are paid for in purgatory.

Just as Jesus said “You shall not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny”.

See Jesus can forgive you–that doesn’t mean you will not have to pay for what you have done.

Jesus does not lie.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

So whjy did God punish David after He forge him. are you going to tell me that God didn’t think His forgiveness was enough?

He forgave Isaiah–a man of unclean lips by touching his lips to burning coal Before Jesus’ atonement on the cross.

Was God wrong for doing that?

god required David to pay in the form of temporal punishment after he forgave him.

Jesus’ atonement had nothing to do with David still having to pay the temporal punishment for his sins–just like if we commit a crime and are sorry for it and God forgives us–we still have the pay the price of temproal punishment here on earth by possibly paying a fine or goin to jail.

Not all crimes are temporally paid for on Earth. Those that are not are paid for in purgatory.

Just as jesus said “You shall not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny”.

See Jesus can forgive you–that doesn’t mean you will not have to pay for what you have done.

Jesus does not lie.

Like I tried to tell you, this incident happened under the OLD covenant. Jesus had not yet taken upon himself the punishment for sin. Things are different now under the NEW covenant. There’s no further need for us to atone for our own sins.

 

[NotWorthy]

Like I tried to tell you, this incident happened under the OLD covenant. Jesus had not yet taken upon himself the punishment for sin. Things are different now under the NEW covenant. There’s no further need for us to atone for our own sins.

Where, pray tell, does it say that in the Bible? I assumed after reading Romans, 8, that I needed to make atonement for my sins:

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

That’s a big “IF” in my book.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Where, pray tell, does it say that in the Bible? I assumed after reading Romans, 8, that I needed to make atonement for my sins:

That’s a big “IF” in my book.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The suffering with Christ would be our willingness to withstand pursecution for Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The suffering with Christ would be our willingness to withstand pursecution for Christ.

And so Christ didn’t mean it when he said we had to “pick up your Cross and Follow me”. “Are you willing to drink from the same cup as I”?

You seem to forget, that Christ wipes our slates at Baptism, no atonement on our part, no penance necessary.

After that, we must seek atonement for the sins that we commit as members of the Covenant. This is why Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

And so Christ didn’t mean it when he said we had to “pick up your Cross and Follow me”. “Are you willing to drink from the same cup as I”?

You seem to forget, that Christ wipes our slates at Baptism, no atonement on our part, no penance necessary.

After that, we must seek atonement for the sins that we commit as members of the Covenant. This is why Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins.

Again, Jesus was telling his followers to endure violent persecution for the sake of faith in him, in the same way he suffered for our sins. That is all that passage means. It doesn’t mean that Jesus’ sacrifice was a partial sacrifice that needs to be perfected by us suffering.

 

[NotWorthy]

Again, Jesus was telling his followers to endure violent persecution for the sake of faith in him, in the same way he suffered for our sins. That is all that passage means. It doesn’t mean that Jesus’ sacrifice was a partial sacrifice that needs to be perfected by us suffering.

But Chris, at the risk of going around in circles, Paul echoes these sentiments, and makes it conditional.

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

We are heirs, IF ONLY we suffer with him.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Like I said before, the suffering talked about that Christians must endure isn’t saying that we must atone for our own sins. It’s refering to our willingness to endure persecution for Christ. It may also mean the pain of giving up a sin we are attached to.

In order to agree with your position, I would have to be of the opinion that Christ’s perfect sacrifice was insufficient and that flawed humanity has to perfect it somehow.

 

[jmcrae]

Like I said before, the suffering talked about that Christians must endure isn’t saying that we must atone for our own sins. It’s refering to our willingness to endure persecution for Christ. It may also mean the pain of giving up a sin we are attached to.

In order to agree with your position, I would have to be of the opinion that Christ’s perfect sacrifice was insufficient and that flawed humanity has to perfect it somehow.

Through the Cross and Resurrection, Christ made salvation possible, but (obviously) not everyone gets saved. We have to follow the path that Christ has set out for us, through obedience to His commandments, and through the Sacraments of His Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

Like I said before, the suffering talked about that Christians must endure isn’t saying that we must atone for our own sins. It’s refering to our willingness to endure persecution for Christ. It may also mean the pain of giving up a sin we are attached to.

So Faith is NOT all that’s necessary for Salvation. I’m beginning to understand.

In order to agree with your position, I would have to be of the opinion that Christ’s perfect sacrifice was insufficient and that flawed humanity has to perfect it somehow.

St. Paul himself says that he makes up for what is lacking in Christ’s suffering. It doesn’t mean that Christ’s perfect sacrifice was insufficient. It just means we must participate in His sufferings.

Keep it up, Chris! You’re getting there!

 

[Chris_LaRock]

So Faith is NOT all that’s necessary for Salvation. I’m beginning to understand.

St. Paul himself says that he makes up for what is lacking in Christ’s suffering. It doesn’t mean that Christ’s perfect sacrifice was insufficient. It just means we must participate in His sufferings.

Keep it up, Chris! You’re getting there!

There’s nothing lacking in Christ’s atonement. The Catholic Church teaches a gospel of salvation through personal efforts and works, which I disagree with.

 

[Eileen_T]

There’s nothing lacking in Christ’s atonement. The Catholic Church teaches a gospel of salvation through personal efforts and works, which I disagree with.

Where does the CC teach that? Can you give us a quote or reference?

That’s not what I have been taught. What the Church teaches, (from Scripture) is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Read Matthew 25.

It is not faith or works, it is Faith ***AND *** works.

As for* personal effort*, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 so, yes, we do have to make a personal effort.