Through Jewish eyes: validity of Christianity

[corrgc]

(I asked this in another thread concerning the validity of the Christian faith, from a Hebrew context, but received no reply). I decided to start a new thread in hopes of attaining an answer.

Greetings!

Since our Jewish brethren are quoting new testament text is it because they feel that the text is reliable and historically verifiable (I’ll stop short of inspired)?

Can someone quote for me prophecy from the law or prophets that states that God the Father asked the passover sacrifice in Jerusalem to be discontinued?

One more - Why was the Jewish canon of Scripture closed? Who got to make that decision, and do they (if it was a ruling body) still excersise authority over all people of the covenant?

Please excuse my ignorance if these are dumb questions.

Sincerely in Christ,

Corrgc

 

[Ruthie]

I can’t answer this because I don’t know. I can only give you the Catholic viewpoint.

Perhaps you would be better off asking this in a Jewish forum?

We do have one or two Jewish members. Perhaps they can answer you.

In charity,

Ruthie

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
Can someone quote for me prophecy from the law or prophets that states that God the Father asked the passover sacrifice in Jerusalem to be discontinued? . . .

I am not an expert on this. However, it is my understanding that the passover sacrifice cannot be continued without the Temple and Levites to slaughter the lambs.

Christians find a prophecy in Malachi 1:10-11, but I don’t think the Jews accept it.

Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. 11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[aaronjo]

As per Jewish law, worshipping a three-part god is idolatry

It is one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew will rather give up his/her life than transgress.

Thatswhy during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

As per Jewish law, worshipping a three-part god is idolatry

It is one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew will rather give up his/her life than transgress.

Thatswhy during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

Haven’t you been shown to be a Muslim, aaronjo?

And why have Jews given up their lives rather than convert to Islam?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I am not an expert on this. However, it is my understanding that the passover sacrifice cannot be continued without the Temple and Levites to slaughter the lambs.

Christians find a prophecy in Malachi 1:10-11, but I don’t think the Jews accept it.

You are right in all of the above. They don’t accept it, yet they have to admit that they cannot preform the Temple sacrifices (and many of the 600+ commandments). Quite a problem.

Btw, the text you cite is used from the time of St. Clement (c.95) to show the ‘sacrifice of the mass.’

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. .

Thatswhy during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

Note that the Inquisitions did not force anyone to convert. They were only to judge if a conversion was sincere.

 

[chosen_people]

(I asked this in another thread concerning the validity of the Christian faith, from a Hebrew context, but received no reply). I decided to start a new thread in hopes of attaining an answer.

Greetings!

Since our Jewish brethren are quoting new testament text is it because they feel that the text is reliable and historically verifiable (I’ll stop short of inspired)?

Can someone quote for me prophecy from the law or prophets that states that God the Father asked the passover sacrifice in Jerusalem to be discontinued?

One more - Why was the Jewish canon of Scripture closed? Who got to make that decision, and do they (if it was a ruling body) still excersise authority over all people of the covenant?

Please excuse my ignorance if these are dumb questions.

Sincerely in Christ,

Corrgc

These questions are anything but dumb.

How the final codification of the Tanach came about, how prayer replaced sacrifice and why, can be found by studying Jewish history and Anshei knesset hagedola - lit. The people of the great assembly

here are some web sites:ou.org/about/judaism/anshei.htm
aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_26_-_The_Great_Assembly.asp

Now as for “Jewish brethren quoting Christian scriptures” in as much as they wish to argue against Christianity it is fruitless endeavor. The same way that I find specious Christianity seeking to interpret the Tanach in contravention of Jewish beliefs, the same must be said for any Jew who falls into the same trap by trying to interpret Christian scriptures against Christian beliefs. Needless to say, the “Jewish brethren” don’t require Christian scriptures to support the Tanach and their beliefs.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

These questions are anything but dumb.

How the final codification of the Tanach came about, how prayer replaced sacrifice

but it didn’t, as your source states. Sacrifice was resumed. But yet, it was a prefigurement of things to come.

and why, can be found by studying Jewish history and Anshei knesset hagedola - lit. The people of the great assembly

here are some web sites:ou.org/about/judaism/anshei.htm
aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_26_-_The_Great_Assembly.asp

Now as for “Jewish brethren quoting Christian scriptures” in as much as they wish to argue against Christianity it is fruitless endeavor. The same way that I find specious Christianity seeking to interpret the Tanach in contravention of Jewish beliefs, the same must be said for any Jew who falls into the same trap by trying to interpret Christian scriptures against Christian beliefs. Needless to say, the “Jewish brethren” don’t require Christian scriptures to support the Tanach and their beliefs.

How about interpreting Hebrew Scripture in contravention of Jewish beliefs?

 

[Valke2]

You are right in all of the above. They don’t accept it, yet they have to admit that they cannot preform the Temple sacrifices (and many of the 600+ commandments). Quite a problem.

Btw, the text you cite is used from the time of St. Clement (c.95) to show the ‘sacrifice of the mass.’

Why is this a problem? The inability to perfrom various mitzvot has no affect on the validity of our religion.

 

[steve_b]

These questions are anything but dumb.

How the final codification of the Tanach came about, how prayer replaced sacrifice and why, can be found by studying Jewish history and Anshei knesset hagedola - lit. The people of the great assembly

here are some web sites:ou.org/about/judaism/anshei.htm

I’m familiar with this site. I’m glad you’re here, because I’ve always wanted to ask someone who is Jewish, if this is representative of what Jews really believe. I realize there are various groups within Judaism (hesidic (sp), liberal, conservative, etc) who might have disagreements with each other.

May I ask, from your opinion, what position does this site represent?
chosen:

aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_26_-_The_Great_Assembly.asp

How did the Jewish scholars decide that the followng

“Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, as well as the sages Mordechai, (of the Purim story), Yehoshua, (the High Priest), Nechemia (the chief architect of rebuilding of Jerusalem), Shimon HaTzaddik (also a High Priest).”

would close the Jewish canon? And what date/event do you recognize as the closing of your canon

Thanks in advance for your response :tiphat:

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Why is this a problem? The inability to perfrom various mitzvot has no affect on the validity of our religion.

When they are central, that’s not a problem?

It’s also odd in a view that says Christianity cannot be the True Faith of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets, because it doesn’t “keep the commandments.”

Speaking of which, where does the celebration of Hannukah, restoring the Temple, fall in, a view that says it bases itself on the Masoretic Tanakh and Anshei knesset hagedola - lit. The people of the great assembly? The Tanakh rejects Maccabbees, and, according to the site cited, the Assembly was acting in substitution of sacrifices which in fact were later restored?

 

[reen12]

As per Jewish law, worshipping a three-part god is idolatry

It is one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew will rather give up his/her life than transgress.

Thatswhy during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

You are, of course, correct.

Members of Israel - knowing Torah, would have
rejected, instantly - the claim that a human being was God.

Polytheism, no matter what form it takes,
remains polytheism.

God uses this profound error to good.
Christianity has carried forward monotheism -
even as she proclaims the error of a triune deity.

reen12

 

[reen12]

What I find of interest is similarity in attitudes.

Catholic Christanity holds that she is the one, true Christian faith.
That she speaks for a triune deity.
Any claim to the contrary, by a billion other Christians,
is met with solid rejection.

The true faith remains Judaism. Once broach the topic
of a 3-part deity, and one meets with similar rejection.
Nothing further needs to be said, to those who follow Torah.

Dressing up this assertion of a God/man in the polysyllabic [hypostatic union,]
changes nothing.

Polytheism remains polytheism - no matter what form it takes.

reen12

 

[Valke2]

When they are central, that’s not a problem?

No. It is not a problem. If it was a problem, we solved it over the last 2,000 years.

It’s also odd in a view that says Christianity cannot be the True Faith of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets, because it doesn’t “keep the commandments.”

I never heard a Jew say that Christianity can’t be a true faith of Abraham… But look at it this way. There was never any one Jew who was obligated to keep all 613 commandments. Unless there was a Jew who was a farmer who lived in and out of Israel, was also a merchant and a rabbi, as well as a priest, a man and a woman.

Speaking of which, where does the celebration of Hannukah, restoring the Temple, fall in, a view that says it bases itself on the Masoretic Tanakh and Anshei knesset hagedola - lit. The people of the great assembly? The Tanakh rejects Maccabbees, and, according to the site cited, the Assembly was acting in substitution of sacrifices which in fact were later restored?

Maccabbees is not part of the TaNaKh. Correct. Hanukah is described, however, in the Talmud (Shabbat 21b). It is not, btw, actually mentioned in Maccabbees.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

corrgc:

Since our Jewish brethren are quoting new testament text is it because they feel that the text is reliable and historically verifiable (I’ll stop short of inspired)?

I have a problem with questions that boil down to “Does Judaism Believe X”. Judaism is not one religion, but a wide range of religions, from the Orthodox (read: hardcore) Judaism to Humanistic Judaism who don’t even believe in G-d, triune or otherwise. This is not to say (as I’ve been accused of saying in the past.) that Jewish persons or philosophies are confused about the tenets of their faiths, but merely that they are not all one faith. In answer to your question in light of the above information, you may be thinking of Jews for Jesus, a pseudo-Jewish religion, that claims its members are valid members of the tribe*, but are also evangelical protestant Christians.

*many do meet the prerequisites to be recognized as Jewish, by Jewish law, however not all members do.

Shalom.
Sincerely,
Iggy

 

[Isa_Almisry]

No. It is not a problem. If it was a problem, we solved it over the last 2,000 years.

Next year in Jerusalem?

I never heard a Jew say that Christianity can’t be a true faith of Abraham… But look at it this way. There was never any one Jew who was obligated to keep all 613 commandments. Unless there was a Jew who was a farmer who lived in and out of Israel, was also a merchant and a rabbi, as well as a priest, a man and a woman.

Not quite. For instance, the High Priest must not defile himself for his father or mother’s corpse. Lev. 21:11 This would seem to involve only one Jew, and two corpses. Now does that mean that any Jew may place the corpse of the High Priest’s parents in the High Priest’s house (where he would inevitably defile himself). No, or course not. Unless you can come up with one of the 613 which doesn’t implicate every Jew (and most are so basic and general, that this is even not a question).

Maccabbees is not part of the TaNaKh. Correct. Hanukah is described, however, in the Talmud (Shabbat 21b). It is not, btw, actually mentioned in Maccabbees.

Oh?
I Macc. 4:59 And Judas, and his brethren, and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the altar should be kept in its season from year to year for eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month of Kislev, with joy and gladness

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I have a problem with questions that boil down to “Does Judaism Believe X”. Judaism is not one religion, but a wide range of religions, from the Orthodox (read: hardcore) Judaism to Humanistic Judaism who don’t even believe in G-d, triune or otherwise. This is not to say (as I’ve been accused of saying in the past.) that Jewish persons or philosophies are confused about the tenets of their faiths, but merely that they are not all one faith. In answer to your question in light of the above information, you may be thinking of Jews for Jesus, a pseudo-Jewish religion, that claims its members are valid members of the tribe*, but are also evangelical protestant Christians.

*many do meet the prerequisites to be recognized as Jewish, by Jewish law, however not all members do.

Shalom.
Sincerely,
Iggy

Many Jews don’t meet those prerequisites. I’ve known many Conservative Jews who were such because the Orthodox would not accept them, as their mother wasn’t Jewish. Hence the reason why the “Who is a Jew?” became such an uproar in the 80s.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I know, but personally i didn’t think it was wise to open that can of worms, I didn’t imply that reformed Judaism was more valid, only that i didn’t consider Jews for Jesus to be a valid Jewish faith.

Peace be with you.
Sincerely,
Iggy

 

[chosen_people]

I have a problem with questions that boil down to “Does Judaism Believe X”. Judaism is not one religion, but a wide range of religions, from the Orthodox (read: hardcore) Judaism to Humanistic Judaism who don’t even believe in G-d, triune or otherwise. This is not to say (as I’ve been accused of saying in the past.) that Jewish persons or philosophies are confused about the tenets of their faiths, but merely that they are not all one faith. In answer to your question in light of the above information, you may be thinking of Jews for Jesus, a pseudo-Jewish religion, that claims its members are valid members of the tribe*, but are also evangelical protestant Christians.

*many do meet the prerequisites to be recognized as Jewish, by Jewish law, however not all members do.

Shalom.
Sincerely,
Iggy

Saying that Judaism is a wide range of religions is incorrect. You are applying a Christian concept of religion to Judaism. Jews have their own way of thinking which can be demonstrated in the following anecdote:
The Jewish Mind…

Only if you are Jewish (or very friendly with Jews and therefore intuitively understand the Jewish mind) will you understand this reasoning.

After months of negotiation with the authorities, a Talmudist from Odessa was finally granted permission to visit Moscow. He boarded the train and found an empty seat. At the next stop, a young man got on and sat next to him.

The scholar looked at the young man and he thought: This fellow doesn’t look like a peasant, so if he is no peasant he probably comes from this district. If he comes from this district, then he must be Jewish because this is, after all, a Jewish district. But on the other hand, since he is a Jew, where could he be going? I’m the only Jew in our district who has permission to travel to Moscow.

Ahh, wait! Just outside Moscow there is a little village called Samvet, and

Jews don’t need special permission to go to Samvet. But why would he travel to Samvet? He is surely going to visit one of the Jewish families there. But how many Jewish families are there in Samvet? Aha, only two - the Bernsteins and the Steinbergs. But since the Bernsteins are a terrible family, so such a nice looking fellow like him, he must be visiting the Steinbergs. But why is he going to the Steinbergs in Samvet?

The Steinbergs have only daughters, two of them. So maybe he’s their

son-in-law. But if he is, then which daughter did he marry? They say that Sarah Steinberg married a nice lawyer from Budapest, and Esther married a businessman from Zhitomer, so it must be Sarah’s husband. Which means that his name is Alexander Cohen, if I’m not mistaken.

But if he came from Budapest, with all the anti-Semitism they have there, he must have changed his name. What’s the Hungarian equivalent of Cohen? It is Kovacs. But since they allowed him to change his name, he must have special status to change it. What could it be? Must be a doctorate from the University. Nothing less would do.

At this point, therefore, the scholar of Talmud turns to the young man and says, “Excuse me. Do you mind if I open the window, Dr. Kovacs?” “Not at all”, answered the startled co-passenger. “But how is it that you know my name?”

“Ahhh,” replied the Talmudist, “It was obvious.”