Thur Mass readings (Litany of things to "put on" / "credit" with God / forgive in order to be forgiven /

[distracted]

****September 10, 2009 ****

Reading 1
Col 3:12-17

Brothers and Sisters:
Put on, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved,
heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,
bearing with one another and forgiving one another,
if one has a grievance against another;
as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do.
And over all these put on love,
that is, the bond of perfection.
And let the peace of Christ control your hearts,
the peace into which you were also called in one Body.
And be thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly,
as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another,
singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs
with gratitude in your hearts to God.
And whatever you do, in word or in deed,
do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 150:1b-2, 3-4, 5-6

R. (6) Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise the LORD in his sanctuary,
praise him in the firmament of his strength.
Praise him for his mighty deeds,
praise him for his sovereign majesty.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise him with the blast of the trumpet,
praise him with lyre and harp,
Praise him with timbrel and dance,
praise him with strings and pipe.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise him with sounding cymbals,
praise him with clanging cymbals.
Let everything that has breath
praise the LORD! Alleluia.
R. Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!

Gospel
Lk 6:27-38

Jesus said to his disciples:
“To you who hear I say, love your enemies,
do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you,
pray for those who mistreat you.
To the person who strikes you on one cheek,
offer the other one as well,
and from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold even your tunic.
Give to everyone who asks of you,
and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
For if you love those who love you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them.
And if you do good to those who do good to you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners do the same.
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners,
and get back the same amount.
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them,
and lend expecting nothing back;
then your reward will be great
and you will be children of the Most High,
for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be merciful, just as also your Father is merciful.

“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Give and gifts will be given to you;
a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing,
will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”

*1st:

funny we have another litany today. Yesterday (or the day before?) we had a litany of all the evils we are to avoid. Now we have a litany of all the good things we are to do. I wonder if the Church did that on purpose when choosing the readings?? I never could figure out or find out how it is the Church chooses which scriptures to include in the Mass for which days… but there certainly seems to be great wisdom in how the hierarchy goes about it…

but then, that doesn’t surprise me…

The 2nd readings, as often happens, has a common theme with the 1st, that being, in a nutshell: loving others, which involves forgiving them, something that still does not always come easily to me, sad to say… but Jesus is a learning experience…

it’s interesting that Jesus speaks of “credits” - What credit is to love those who love you, He asks.

I do believe we gain merits on this Earth… by what we do / abstain from doing… and i don’t think that that belief in any way detracts from the notion that we are saved by grace alone…

It is when we do good things that we receive grace… *

 

[cheeto1]

"Put on, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved,
heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience"
***And over all these put on love,

---

Now doesn’t this sound like the armor of God? Eph 6:14 and cont…
Truth as a belt, justice as breastplate, zeal for peace as footgear,
shield of faith, helmet of salvation, sword of the Spirit.

So, now we have 2 outfits.

“Even sinners love those who love them”
– Then is Jesus saying that some people aren’t sinners? Or is He
saying that no one loves their enemies?
I have never been able to love an enemy, I’m afraid of enemies!
I’m not able to love someone and be afraid of them at once.
I have heard people say they have no enemies, but I have never
heard anyone say they love their enemy.

“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven"
– So then if you had a group of really bad people who all decided
to just do bad things and not judge people they would all go to
heaven…?
actually, is it physically possible not to judge anybody?

Today’s readings had too many things in them to think about them all…

 

[Nita]

"Put on, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved,
heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience"
***And over all these put on love,

---

Now doesn’t this sound like the armor of God? Eph 6:14 and cont…
Truth as a belt, justice as breastplate, zeal for peace as footgear,
shield of faith, helmet of salvation, sword of the Spirit.

So, now we have 2 outfits.

“Even sinners love those who love them”
– Then is Jesus saying that some people aren’t sinners? Or is He
saying that no one loves their enemies?
I have never been able to love an enemy, I’m afraid of enemies!
I’m not able to love someone and be afraid of them at once.
I have heard people say they have no enemies, but I have never
heard anyone say they love their enemy.

Jesus is telling us to love our enemies. I bet you have loved them cheeto – you just didn’t know it. Have you ever prayed for an enemy? asking God to save them, etc.? That is “loving” them. When Jesus speaks of love, He isn’t talking about a feeling. Neither is He talking about liking them. He’s talking about doing what is for the good of another – especially their eternal good.

So, if you have enemies, pray for their salvation. You’ll be loving them.
Pray that God will bless them in some special way today. You’ll be loving them.
Would you stop and help them if they were in trouble, hurt, or in danger? If you would, that’s loving them.

“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven"
– So then if you had a group of really bad people who all decided
to just do bad things and not judge people they would all go to
heaven…?
actually, is it physically possible not to judge anybody?

Today’s readings had too many things in them to think about them all…

Distinguish between judging the action and judging the person.
We are supposed to judge whether actions are in conformity with God’s commands.
We are not to judge the personal guilt of a person who commits an act contrary to what God has commanded.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly,
as[while] in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another,
singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs
with gratitude in your hearts to God.

“My soul doth glory in your love oh Lord.
for you looked on your servant with compassion…”

“Now let your servant Go in peace, for I have seen the glory of Israel.”

Such spiritual songs which came from those blessed by the Holy Spirit; and the psalms which have a teaching message as well.

Gospel
Lk 6:27-38

Jesus said to his disciples:
“To you who hear I say, love your enemies,
***do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you,
pray for those who mistreat you.
****I suppose to those who falsely put anger in other people’s motives, one ought to bless them in their misery – even if they don’t understand.

---

To the person who strikes you on one cheek,
offer the other one as well,

---

I really relate to this passage:

John 18:22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus on the cheek with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?

John 18:23 Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

Luke 22:64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

And at one point Jesus told Peter – Get thou behind me Satan!
I wonder if Peter complained – “Lord You just misunderstand me every other sentence.” I can just imagine the response…

and from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold even your tunic.
Give to everyone who asks of you,
and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

The golden rule as I called it a few readings of the day back…
Isn’t it interesting how it follows immediately on the notion of injustice – I find it funny to try and apply it contextually; it would be like, If I took your cloak – I would want you to give me your hat too.
I remember being in North Portland and I had a hibatchi grill outside – and a I happened to be right at the window when a man decided to steal it. I remember thinking – if he has to stoop to steal a little hibatchi grill, he probably needed it, and just let him go.
But then after being conned by a few people – I began to realize that not all who are in need steal. Some of them are just addicted to adrenaline or something. It makes it difficult to judge what to do in the “hard cases” I often see.

But rather, love your enemies and do good to them,
and lend expecting nothing back;
then your reward will be great
and you will be children of the Most High,
for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be merciful, just as also your Father is merciful.

The sun rose and grew the food for the terrorists as well as the rest of the world. In many ways, loving one’s enemy amounts to respecting their humanity – like the drunk getting on the bus and sitting next to you and confiding that he knows more about religion than Jesus himself.

For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”

Jesus once said, “can any of you convict me of sin?”

I wonder how many would kindly point out my faults, not in derision – but in encouragement. Like when my wife and I were in a tiff over my going back to college; and when she laid the my body ultimatums down – I simply said to her: Gretchen, even if I am wrong, does two wrongs make a right?
If I have hurt you, could you not rise above it and become a saint.

• It is when we do good things that we receive grace… *

Well may the grace of a glorious and sunny day be yours and cheetohs, and you too Nita!
God bless you all.
Love and prayers,
–Andrew.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Distracted:

It is when we do good things that we receive grace…

Careful… That smacks of Pelagianism.

It would be better to say that when we do good things we co-operate with grace. Man is unable to do good without grace. It’s in the Bible!

 

[distracted]

***"P

---

“Even sinners love those who love them”
– Then is Jesus saying that some people aren’t sinners? Or is He
saying that no one loves their enemies? Jesus had a way of saying both (more than one hting) in situations like this… but i think what he meant by Sinners was people who sin and don’t repent, don’t care that they are sinning, not those Christians who avoid sin like the plague … but are still sinners… (isn’t it the pits to be human sometimes… you just can’t win)…

I have never been able to love an enemy, I'm afraid of enemies!

 

[distracted]

Careful… That smacks of Pelagianism.

It would be better to say that when we do good things we co-operate with grace. Man is unable to do good without grace. It’s in the Bible!

Pelagianism

i get all those heresies mixed up… please explain…

whatever it is, i am not one… I believe exactly as the RCC teaches…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Pelagianism

i get all those heresies mixed up… please explain…

whatever it is, i am not one… I believe exactly as the RCC teaches…

I am sure you do! Your way of saying it was problematic:

It is when we do good things that we receive grace…

This could easily be interpreted to mean that because we do good things we receive grace, although I’m sure you meant that we receive grace so that we can do good things.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I am sure you do! Your way of saying it was problematic:

It was like apple-juice that accidentally got left out with the lid open – still tastes like apples, but with a bit of a different kick.

ccc 2010: no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion … we can merit for ourselves and others the graces needed for …

This could easily be interpreted to mean that because we do good things we receive grace, although I’m sure you meant that we receive grace so that we can do good things.

Grace being a gift, I would just say that the sun rises on the good and bad both – and so we all receive some graces regardless of what we do.

St. Paul, Romans 2:4 Or are you abusing his abundant goodness, patience and toleration, not realizing that this goodness of God is meant to lead you to repentance?

The man who patiently suffers what comes to him wither deserved or not; will not receive reward for suffering what is deserved – but will find a reward for suffering what is not deserved. The man who is patient in all things, then, will eventually find a reward of God’s grace for it is not possible that the Devil will deal justly with anyone.

No need to go totally Calvinistic on the idea of Grace; There are things we can do to encourage the Grace of God to come more abundantly. Be patient and hope always.

 

[distracted]

I am sure you do! Your way of saying it was problematic:

This could easily be interpreted to mean that because we do good things we receive grace, although I’m sure you meant that we receive grace so that we can do good things.

no i did not mean to say that.

i meant to say that doing good things brings grace into our souls…

and that is NOT heresy but truth.

one feels closer to God when one does good… just logical…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

no i did not mean to say that.

i meant to say that doing good things brings grace into our souls…

and that is NOT heresy but truth.

one feels closer to God when one does good… just logical…

The idea that man can do good things without grace is indeed the heresy of Pelagianism. For you to insist that first you do good things, and then you get grace is heretical. The Catholic Church (and Jesus in the Bible as well) teach that man is INCAPABLE of doing good WITHOUT grace.

 

[distracted]

The idea that man can do good things without grace is indeed the heresy of Pelagianism. For you to insist that first you do good things, and then you get grace is heretical. The Catholic Church (and Jesus in the Bible as well) teach that man is INCAPABLE of doing good WITHOUT grace.

i don’t respond to those who insinuate i am a heretic…

and you have a lack of charity…

to not believe in charity as being an integral part of christianity is also heretical

 

[AmbroseSJ]

i don’t respond to those who insinuate i am a heretic…

and you have a lack of charity…

to not believe in charity as being an integral part of christianity is also heretical

According to your definition of charity (or lack thereof) all of the Early Church Fathers and almost all of the Popes lack Charity as well for insinuating that people that hold as true heretical ideas are heretics! And they did far more than insinuate, they anathematized!

Furthermore, accusing me of a lack of charity for merely pointing out your error (in a charitable way) and underscoring the enormity of this error by explaining this was actually a terrible heresy, would hardly constitute a lack of charity, in fact we are counseled in the Scriptures to admonish our brothers when they are in error as an act of charity!

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Huiou Theou:

No need to go totally Calvinistic on the idea of Grace; There are things we can do to encourage the Grace of God to come more abundantly.

I agree However, it seemed to me that there was a danger of falling into the opposite error. Based on the poster’s added comments, my fears have actually been strengthened. There are many Catholics that do actually believe their salvation is based on works, and this is one area that contributes to that mistaken idea. No one here denies that grace can also be merited by doing good works. Yet, even in the doing of those good works, grace was also at work. That is an important point that should be reinforced, in my view.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I agree However, it seemed to me that there was a danger of falling into the opposite error. Based on the poster’s added comments, my fears have actually been strengthened.

Well, considering my reaction to the following was my reaction to the original…

Pelagianism
whatever it is, i am not one… I believe exactly as the RCC teaches…

I would make a charitable suggestion – just forgive her for she does not know what she is doing? I mean if you are really worried about it… don’t be hostile (although I have no definition of what that is) or she won’t talk to you anymore – several times over.

There are many Catholics that do actually believe their salvation is based on works, and this is one area that contributes to that mistaken idea. No one here denies that grace can also be merited by doing good works. Yet, even in the doing of those good works, grace was also at work. That is an important point that should be reinforced, in my view.

Fair enough; though the charge that “many Catholics” do actually believe their salvation is based on works is something of oversensitivity to anti-catholic sentiments. Faith itself IS a work, and that is how Grace (a gift and encounter with God) can be at work in one both to desire and to will to do the good.
John 6:28-29.

Jewish modes of expression lead our generation so often to finding contradictions where there are none – what was meant as emphasis becomes an “absolute” in yet another unlearned mind.

Put on, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved,
heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,
bearing with one another and forgiving one another,
…
And be thankful.
***…
***Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly,
as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another,

Humility, poorness of spirit, eg: the antithesis of pride is where the beginner must begin. Without it, the student is not ready for the teacher who is Christ. I think of Jesus in his farewell discourse saying – “I have many things to tell you, but you can not bear them now” It is so difficult to be gentle with a brute(ess) – but somehow we are commanded to do so – it will be interesting to see on this thread whom admonishes and teaches whom – her or you? God bless both you and her.

BTW:
what is the SJ for in your name, Ambrose – eg: the teacher of Augustine and my second son’s name; an admirable saint. Is this some reference to the same Ambrose, or another?

Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.

 

[distracted]

According to your definition of charity (or lack thereof) all of the Early Church Fathers and almost all of the Popes lack Charity as well for insinuating that people that hold as true heretical ideas are heretics! And they did far more than insinuate, they anathematized!

)

when the pope or an orthodox Catholic priest tells me i am in error, then i will retract…

you aren’t either… and if you said you were i would not believe it …

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I would make a charitable suggestion – just forgive her for she does not know what she is doing?

BTW:
what is the SJ for in your name, Ambrose – eg: the teacher of Augustine and my second son’s name; an admirable saint. Is this some reference to the same Ambrose, or another?

Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.

Sorry if I came off as hostile to your friend. If you take a look at my signature you should have an answer to your question.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Sorry if I came off as hostile to your friend. If you take a look at my signature you should have an answer to your question.

A John Henry Newman fan. We’ll so am I – I haven’t read Ambrose Saint John’s works – I’ll have to look to see if there are any easily available.

I have no idea if you came of as “hostile” to Distracted or not – she STILL hasn’t told me what “hostile” actually means… It was just a suspicion that if I am hostile, anyone who disagrees with her is – and therefore anyone who admonishes must fit the bill too. I also don’t know what “charity” means in her book.

I would like to think I am her friend, but she won’t let me and “Is’nt talking to hostiles…”


Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

A John Henry Newman fan. We’ll so am I – I haven’t read Ambrose Saint John’s works – I’ll have to look to see if there are any easily available.

I have no idea if you came of as “hostile” to Distracted or not – she STILL hasn’t told me what “hostile” actually means… It was just a suspicion that if I am hostile, anyone who disagrees with her is – and therefore anyone who admonishes must fit the bill too. I also don’t know what “charity” means in her book.

I would like to think I am her friend, but she won’t let me and “Is’nt talking to hostiles…”


Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.

I don’t know if you will find any works by Ambrose St.John, (but let me know if you do!) But I selected him as he was a very dear friend of John Henry Newman, and that is something I would like to be too!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

when the pope or an orthodox Catholic priest tells me i am in error, then i will retract…

you aren’t either… and if you said you were i would not believe it …

I think you are both talking in different languages!

I’m sure you would agree that we cannot take credit for anything, our good fortune or talents, these are God-given graces. Without God we are nothing. That old expression “there but for the grace of God go I” is so true. God is our salvation and our hope.

But of course, faith without works, is empty.