Thus Saith the Lord and LDS "Prophets"

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OK, I’m starting to get disheartened now.

I even went online to mormon.org to try and get the answer from an online missionary, and even then they couldn’t answer.

I think they even gave me the “bums rush”, even though they were polite about it.

I printed/scanned the brief conversation. I hope you can all read it.

NO, my name is not Milton…I just don’t want them tracking me down…lol

The link they provided sent me to D & C 68 1-3. I don’t think it really answered the question.
Bum’s rush is right. I recognize the “Journal of Discourses alarm” going off in their heads. As soon as you started pushing on the JoD they cut you off like an offending hand. They know they have no answers to these questions.
 
Way to be nice to the missionaries! For all my wroth upon Mormonism, I think it is important to be considerate to the missionaries and not go smashing them with a bunch of arguments. You did the right thing by keeping your questions modest and not giving them a hard time. But for reasons of transparency, it might have been better to let them know you were using a pseudonym. Just my two cents.
I see your point on the pseudonym, but I also think that if I had told them that, they wouldn’t have taken my questions seriously. Kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don’t scenario I think.
I think one reason Mormons might not be responding to this thread is because “Thus saith the Lord” is not a proposition that many of them want to defend anyway. Perhaps broadening the question, as to you with the missionaries is a better … How do you substantiate any theory of what is official doctrine within LDS teaching? Some of them might have answers for that.
Definitely food for thought.
One more little point: I’m not sure its a good idea to ask about the authority of the JoD *per se, *because not every sermon in the Journal could easily be construed as of equally authority. For instance, many of the Discourses are General Conference addresses, and you could refer to their authority on that basis, but others are more diverse: for instance, one of the discourses is a defense at a murder trial! A bit of background study is helpful to sort it out. Even though inclusion in the Journal does not make something official teaching, many of the discourses can be substantiated as official teaching on other grounds. (Few Mormons know, for instance, that Brigham Young’s first sermon on Adam-God was at General Conference, the first conference ever held in Salt Lake City, in fact.)
I do realize there is a variety of quotes in the JoD, I was merely trying to find out if even though they don’t consider it “scripture”, if they still relied on it for teaching material.

To be honest, I think the two ladies I was chatting with may have been relatively new at it. When I asked if they were still there, it was because there was an extremely long lag before I got any kind of response. Which is fair enough, everyone has to start somewhere.

I really wanted to ask them why they decided they had to go all of a sudden, but it was pretty clear that my question about the JoD set off some bells and whistles, and I didn’t want the conversation to go down hill, so I left it.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, because they freely admitted they didn’t know the answer to at least one of the questions I posed to them.
 
I see your point on the pseudonym, but I also think that if I had told them that, they wouldn’t have taken my questions seriously. Kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don’t scenario I think.

Definitely food for thought.

I do realize there is a variety of quotes in the JoD, I was merely trying to find out if even though they don’t consider it “scripture”, if they still relied on it for teaching material.

To be honest, I think the two ladies I was chatting with may have been relatively new at it. When I asked if they were still there, it was because there was an extremely long lag before I got any kind of response. Which is fair enough, everyone has to start somewhere.

I really wanted to ask them why they decided they had to go all of a sudden, but it was pretty clear that my question about the JoD set off some bells and whistles, and I didn’t want the conversation to go down hill, so I left it.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, because they freely admitted they didn’t know the answer to at least one of the questions I posed to them.
This stuff is giving our LDS brethern the “deer-in-the-headlights look”. They are truly stuck.
 
. . . . .I do realize there is a variety of quotes in the JoD, I was merely trying to find out if even though they don’t consider it “scripture”, if they still relied on it for teaching material. . . . .
As I pointed out in my earlier post, Dianaiad said, "leaders were so very careful about separating that which is a ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ scripture binding upon us and that which is their own opinion. . . ."

Dianaiad also said, “Since it was BY and JS who were so very careful about the process for canonizing scripture, I think that it is safe to say that the Journal of Discourses (JD) is not that. They are valuable, but they are NOT binding upon the church.”

If I understand what Dianaiad is saying; when a Mormon Prophet declares, “This Saith the Lord,” his words become “binding Scripture” (or at least lead to that.) Remember, she said that, though valuable, the Journal of Discourses is not canonized Scripture.

Ironically, the rule about “Thus Saith the Lord” falling into the category of “binding Scripture,” is found in the JD, the very source Dianaiad said is not binding. So you have a source that is not considered “binding,” determining that which is “binding.” Go figure. . . . .
Journal of Discourses 13:95, Brigham Young, January 2, 1870
. . . . .The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with **“Thus saith the Lord,” **and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire. . . .
(Emphasis is mine.)
Originally Posted by Dianaiad on Thread “LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?” Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6311818&highlight=Thus+Saith+Lord#post6311818
Did they? Would you explain to me how you can say only “I’m sure they saw the volumes,” and follow that by 'They certainly recommended them…?" As it happens, the FACT is, that none of them saw the transcripts of their speeches before they were published, and **Brigham Young SPECIFICALLY stated that in order for something he said to become scripture, he had to a: have a chance to go over and correct the speech, and that he had to declare that what he said WAS scripture. **
Since it was BY and JS who were so very careful about the process for canonizing scripture, I think that it is safe to say that the Journal of Discourses is not that. They are valuable, but they are NOT binding upon the church.
They give us wonderful insight into the thoughts of our leaders, but since those same leaders were so very careful about separating that which is a "Thus Saith the Lord" scripture binding upon us and that which is their own opinion, I think it would be…reasonable at least…for you to accept that we know what we are talking about in this matter.
Anna
 
I do realize there is a variety of quotes in the JoD, I was merely trying to find out if even though they don’t consider it “scripture”, if they still relied on it for teaching material.
I didn’t think you were in the dark about the JOD. The point I had in mind what a little more practical, although I neglected to explain it sufficiently. The question I really meant to address is this: How to you talk to Mormons about important matters documented in JOD, when they don’t accept its as an authority?

A lot of the time, Mormons associate any use of the JOD by non-Mormons with a very unnuanced and uncritical view of LDS authority. The second an objector says, “So and so said such and such in the Journal of Discourses,” the automatic reply of many Mormons is “Well, the JOD is not official Church teaching. You see, we don’t think every word that comes from a General Authority is automatically inspired, as your ignorance of Mormonism has lead you to assume. To find out what we really believe, you should study actual doctrinal publications by the Church.” At this point, the conversation is already lost, or at best you must work hard uphill to overcome the Mormon’s negative first reaction.

But in reality, the carte blanche dismissal of the JOD in this type of Mormon response is just as uninformed and uncritical as the position it attributes to the objector. But if we are attentive to the contours and variety of content in the JOD in the way we present arguments from it, we can avoid running into that wall. For instance, the phrase “in the Journal of Discourses” can often be replaced with “at General Conference” or “in concert with the other members of the First Presidency” or “the prophet bore his testimony that…”. When you put it your quotes in context like that, then you no longer appear to be treating the JOD as an absolute authority, but have given it the very kind of nuanced reading that the Mormon respondent in the above scenario has not done. This can open doors that would otherwise remain closed.
 
. . . . .When faced with Adam-God, Joseph’s Quakers on the Moon, Joseph’s end of world prediction, the vile, racist comments, etc etc, they stood fast that the comments were not from God and/or revelations because they were not accompanied with “thus Sayeth the Lord”. Then, much to their chagrin, they realize that most of the “revelations” in D&C were not accomanied with “thus sayeth the Lord”. Many of the :revelations they base their beliefs on were not accompanied by “thus sayeth the Lord”. So now they are in a quandry. Either the D&C is fiction, or all the really horrible stuff can also be considered to be from their god.

SirThomasMore,

You make a good point here. I empathize with our Mormon brethren, because I think it is not easy, even within the Mormon Church, to clearly define Mormon doctrine. I hope LDS forum members will join this discussion and give their perspective on the topic of “binding revelation.”

The following quote is taken from ldsces.org, a Mormon website. It states, "“The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture."

Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual at ldsces.org
ldsces.org/inst_manuals/tlp/tlp.htm#4-7
**(4-7) Must a Prophet Always Preface His Remarks with “Thus Saith the Lord” for Them to Be Binding upon the Church?
**
 
I didn’t think you were in the dark about the JOD. The point I had in mind what a little more practical, although I neglected to explain it sufficiently. The question I really meant to address is this: How to you talk to Mormons about important matters documented in JOD, when they don’t accept its as an authority?

A lot of the time, Mormons associate any use of the JOD by non-Mormons with a very unnuanced and uncritical view of LDS authority. The second an objector says, “So and so said such and such in the Journal of Discourses,” the automatic reply of many Mormons is “Well, the JOD is not official Church teaching. You see, we don’t think every word that comes from a General Authority is automatically inspired, as your ignorance of Mormonism has lead you to assume. To find out what we really believe, you should study actual doctrinal publications by the Church.” At this point, the conversation is already lost, or at best you must work hard uphill to overcome the Mormon’s negative first reaction.

But in reality, the carte blanche dismissal of the JOD in this type of Mormon response is just as uninformed and uncritical as the position it attributes to the objector. But if we are attentive to the contours and variety of content in the JOD in the way we present arguments from it, we can avoid running into that wall. For instance, the phrase “in the Journal of Discourses” can often be replaced with “at General Conference” or “in concert with the other members of the First Presidency” or “the prophet bore his testimony that…”. When you put it your quotes in context like that, then you no longer appear to be treating the JOD as an absolute authority, but have given it the very kind of nuanced reading that the Mormon respondent in the above scenario has not done. This can open doors that would otherwise remain closed.
Very true. Excellent post!
 
I have seen on this thread numerous times:
  1. If the “Prophet” doesn’t say “Thus Saith the Lord”, then it isn’t considered a doctrinal statement.
Can someone point to scripture, one of the standard works, church handbook, or official church document that says this is the way things are decided?
twopekinguys,

Where are all our LDS friends? (Maybe, unlike me, they have a life and are out having a nice Friday evening. I just answered my own question. 😊 😊)

Anna

P. S. I still smile every time I think about your “exalted” socks. 😉
 
twopekinguys,

Where are all our LDS friends? (Maybe, unlike me, they have a life and are out having a nice Friday evening. I just answered my own question. 😊 😊)

Anna

P. S. I still smile every time I think about your “exalted” socks. 😉
I think they’re hibernating…😃
 
Hi twopekinguys,

I think I have answers for you. I asked in the mormon apologetic forum and they gave me the following answers:
I have seen on this thread numerous times:
  1. If the “Prophet” doesn’t say “Thus Saith the Lord”, then it isn’t considered a doctrinal statement.
Can someone point to scripture, one of the standard works, church handbook, or official church document that says this is the way things are decided?
Teankum=Zadkiel:
How do you know (or in other words: How did the Church members know when Prophet Joseph Smith was still alive), what was a prophesy and what not?

Are there still prophesies in the present?
CV75:
Link these three concepts:

Num. 11: 29:
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Rev. 19: 10:
…worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14: 29-33:
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

D&C 1: 38:
What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

So, if we have a testimony of Jesus, and therefore the spirit of prophecy, we understand when a prophet is speaking as the voice of God. This is when a prophecy is a prophecy. It is often said that the prophets can only be understood by the spirit of prophecy.

Yes, there are prophecies in the present.
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The_Monk:
Teankum = Zadkiel:
“If the Prophet doesn’t say “Thus Saith the Lord”, then it isn’t considered a doctrinal statement. Is this statement correct?”
No. The presence or lack of that statement has no bearing on whether it is doctrinal.
Cold Steel:
No, a prophet can give us counsel without saying “Thus saith the Lord,” though Joseph Smith was fond of saying it. Elder Marion G. Romney stated:
Today the Lord is revealing his will to all the inhabitants of the earth, and to members of the Church in particular, on the issues of this our day through the living prophets, with the First Presidency at the head. What they say as a presidency is what the Lord would say if he were here in person. This is the rock foundation of Mormonism. If it ever ceases to be the fact, this will be an apostate Church. But it will never cease to be the fact. When the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked what the difference was between the Latter-day Saint Church and the sectarian churches of the world, he said, “We have the Holy Ghost,” by which he meant that by the power of the Holy Ghost the will of our Father is revealed to the minds of the leaders of this Church. So I repeat again, what the presidency say as a presidency is what the Lord would say if he were here, and it is scripture. It should be studied, understood, and followed, even as the revelations in the D&C and other scriptures. Those who follow this course will not interpret what they say as being inspired by political bias or selfishness; neither will they say that the brethren are uninformed as to the circumstances of those affected by their counsel; or that their counsels cannot be accepted because they are not prefaced by the quotation, “Thus saith the Lord.” (Elder Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April 1945, Afternoon Meeting, p.90)
 
Hi twopekinguys,

I think I have answers for you. I asked in the mormon apologetic forum and they gave me the following answers:
Thank you for the information.

I see that at least one of the posters was very specific in their statement, which is very helpful. Especially since one of our mormon friends on here categorically states “Thus saith The Lord”, must be included in the statement.

I must say though that some of their statements seem to leave it up to interpretation. It might be prophesy, it might not be.

It just seems to leave a whole bunch of wiggle room.

But thanks again for the great information! 👍
 
Thank you for the information.

I see that at least one of the posters was very specific in their statement, which is very helpful. Especially since one of our mormon friends on here categorically states “Thus saith The Lord”, must be included in the statement.

I must say though that some of their statements seem to leave it up to interpretation. It might be prophesy, it might not be.

It just seems to leave a whole bunch of wiggle room.

But thanks again for the great information! 👍
yep…it means Diana was wrong and that BY’s Adam-God doctrine was doctrine…until it wasn’t
 
soren1,

My disclaimer:* I’m not entirely comfortable quoting someone in a discussion, when they are not here to clarify or defend their statements. I did send Dianaiad a PM to let her know I am quoting her posts from the Thread entitled, LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation? You can read her comments in context at *forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…11#post6313911.

On the Thread: LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?; Dianaiad said, "leaders were so very careful about separating that which is a ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ scripture binding upon us and that which is their own opinion. . . ."

Dianaiad’s position seems to be, when a Mormon Prophet declares, “This Saith the Lord,” his words become “binding Scripture” (or at least lead to that.) She, also, said that though valuable, the Journal of Discourses is not canonized Scripture.

**As I said before, the rule about “Thus Saith the Lord” falling into the category of that which is “binding,” is found in the JD---- the very source Dianaiad said is not binding. So you have a source that is not considered “binding,” determining that which is “binding.”
**
(Emphasis is mine.)
Journal of Discourses 13:95, Brigham Young, January 2, 1870
Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy.
The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.
The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with “Thus saith the Lord,” and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire. . . . .
Not all Mormons believe the Prophet must declare, “Thus Saith the Lord,” in order to reveal a binding teaching or revelation–as the following quote demonstrates:
(4-7)Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual at ldsces.org
ldsces.org/inst_manuals/tlp/tlp.htm#4-7

Must a Prophet Always Preface His Remarks with “Thus Saith the Lord” for Them to Be Binding upon the Church?
"Unfortunately, some Church members place limitations on prophetic statements. Some will not accept anything as a genuine prophetic declaration unless it is prefaced by the phrase “thus saith the Lord.” President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., demonstrated the fallacy of such a position:
“There are those who insist that unless the Prophet of the Lord declares, ‘Thus saith the Lord,’ the message may not be taken as a revelation. This is a false testing standard. For while many of our modern revelations as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants do contain these words, there are many that do not.” (“When Are Church Leaders’ Words Entitled to Claim of Scripture?” p. 10.)
“The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture. . . . .
. . . . .The question I really meant to address is this: How to you talk to Mormons about important matters documented in JOD, when they don’t accept its as an authority?. . . . .
But if we are attentive to the contours and variety of content in the JOD in the way we present arguments from it, we can avoid running into that wall.

For instance, the phrase “in the Journal of Discourses” can often be replaced with “at General Conference” or “in concert with the other members of the First Presidency” or “the prophet bore his testimony that. . . . .”
soren1,

This sounds good in theory; but I give our Mormon brethren more credit than that. There are some beliefs our LDS friends will reject, no matter how you frame them. Brigham Young’s Adam/God teaching is one of them. If you can find a way to present this to Mormons that will lead to their acknowledgment that the Mormon Church taught Adam is God; I will definitely take my hat off to you. :tiphat:

Even when you think you have made a case for “binding” words of the prophets; you will encounter other obstacles. In such a discussion, Dianaiad said, “As it happens, the FACT is, that none of them saw the transcripts of their speeches before they were published, and Brigham Young SPECIFICALLY stated that in order for something he said to become scripture, he had to a: have a chance to go over and correct the speech, and that he had to declare that what he said WAS scripture.”

My response to Dianaiad:
**"How much time did Brigham Young need to go over his speeches?
On April 9, 1852, BY declared that Adam is God (Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1**.)
On June 8, 1873, BY made the same declaration to the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City (The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873.)
Was 21 years long enough to go over what was published?"
I didn’t receive a response.

Anna
 
soren1,

This sounds good in theory; but I give our Mormon brethren more credit than that. There are some beliefs our LDS friends will reject, no matter how you frame them. Brigham Young’s Adam/God teaching is one of them. If you can find a way to present this to Mormons that will lead to their acknowledgment that the Mormon Church taught Adam is God; I will definitely take my hat off to you. :tiphat:
My point about not attributing things directly to the JOD, but by referring instead to real the historical circumstance of the discourses doesn’t automatically persuade people. What it does is it sidesteps the first line of defense that happens to be the most common Mormon rebuttal. Having said that, the case for Adam-God as a revealed LDS doctrine could scarcely be stronger than it is. My usual way of bringing this up is to avoid attributing it to Brigham Young per se and attribute it primarily to Joseph Smith instead. Brigham Young, after all, did not invent Adam-God as a wild personal speculation but privately claimed it Joseph’s teaching (as attested in Wilford Woodruff’s diary), and he gave some indication in his many recorded sermons on the topic as to why he thought so. In the First General Conference ever held in Salt Lake City, Young said that God was “Michael the Archangel, THE ANCIENT OF DAYS.” What this statement reveals is that rather than a personal invention, Young is delivering a correct exegesis of the following verses of D&C:

*And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; *(D&C 27:11)

Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 116:11; cf. Dan 7)

Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 138:38)

If Brigham Young had never spoken a single word in reference to Adam-God, these three verses, accepted as Scripture by all Latter-day Saints, would consolidate the case on their own merits. “Ancient of Days” is an Aramaic title for God, and is used that way in Daniel 7, as well as in 1 Enoch, another apocalyptic text that has obvious literary influence on both Daniel and Jude. The title “Ancient of Days” does not occur throughout the Bible, because only Dan 7 is written in Aramaic, and the phrase has no cognate in Hebrew. Yet it represents an Ancient Near Eastern tradition that goes back as far as pre-Biblical Ugaritic literature that refers to the chief Canaanite God as “Father of Years.” Moreover, the enthroned figure of God in Revelation is clearly modeled on the Ancient of Days in Daniel. The only Mormon rebuttal to this that I know is that some Jewish pseudepigraphal literature depicts Adam sitting on a judgment seat, but these passages, on examination, are nothing like the visions of Daniel and John and don’t make any reference to the Ancient of Days. Even after making room for such objections, I know of no reason why anyone should deny that the Ancient of Days is God apart from ignorance of the evidence.

Many Mormons maintain the primacy of Scripture over and against the words of living prophets at least in the sense that when two prophets disagree on something, they will refer to the teachings of the Standard Works as a final measure to determine who is right. For Mormons who accept that standard, it is Brigham Young, and not the later prophets who repudiated Adam-God, who wins in a lock. Of course, it is still difficult to prove this to Mormons, because even if the evidence is clear, it is still not self-evident, so they can still find room to doubt it. When I find myself confronted by such skepticism from Mormon, I ask them something like this: “The Church finds it important that there is evidence for Joseph Smith, whether it is the eleven witnesses or some other thing. How can you expect us to take your evidences, when yourself have a posture of radical skepticism in that face of any evidence that is not supportive of your claims? And you apply this skepticism to the teaching of your own prophets. Do you recommend that I should be equally skeptical of the BOM witnesses? If not, do you see that you have a double-standard here?” There is no answer to this.
 
Even when you think you have made a case for “binding” words of the prophets; you will encounter other obstacles. In such a discussion, Dianaiad said, “As it happens, the FACT is, that none of them saw the transcripts of their speeches before they were published, and Brigham Young SPECIFICALLY stated that in order for something he said to become scripture, he had to a: have a chance to go over and correct the speech, and that he had to declare that what he said WAS scripture.”

My response to Dianaiad:

I didn’t receive a response.

Anna
Ah, but speeches are not the only source for the Adam-God doctrine: Brigham Young wrote it down too, criticizing the unbelief of Latter-day Saints who rejected it in a Millenial Star article in the mid-1850’s. (Millenial Star articles written between 1855-57 are actually a much better source for Adam-God teaching that the JOD.) There used to be a facsimile of that article at mrm.org, but somehow my computer has failed to connect to it for the last half-hour.

At any rate, there is at least one vestige of the Adam-God Doctrine still to be found in an official LDS publication, namely the current hymnal (current as of 2001, the printing date of my copy), which has the following song entitled “Sons of Michael He Approaches”:

*Sons of Michael, he approaches! Rise, the ancient father greet.
Bow, ye thousands, low before him; Minister before his feet.
Hail the patriarch’s glad reign, Spreading over sea and main.

Sons of Michael, ’tis his chariot Rolls its burning wheels along!
Raise aloft your voices million In a torrent pow’r of song.
Hail our head with music soft! Raise sweet melodies aloft!

Mother of our generations, Glorious by great Michael’s side,
Take thy children’s adoration; Endless with they seed abide.
Lo! to greet thee now advance Thousands in the glorious dance!

Raise a chorus, sons of Michael, Like old ocean’s roaring swell,
Till the mighty acclamation Thru rebounding space doth tell
That the ancient one doth reign In his Father’s house again!*

This song is modified from its original form in the 1848 hymnal in which the last two verses divinize Michael more clearly:

*Mother of our generations, Glorious by Great Michael’s side,
Take thy children’s adoration; Endless with thy Lord preside;
Lo, lo, to greet thee now advance, Lo, lo, to greet thee now advance
Thousands in the glorious dance!

Raise a chorus, sons of Michael, Like old Ocean’s roaring swell,
Till the mighty acclamation Through rebounding space doth tell
That, that the Ancient One doth reign, That, that the Ancient One may reign
In his Paradise again!
*
Notice how the original text, also from and official publication of the Church, refers to Adam as “thy Lord.” I also has him reigning in Paradise rather than in his Father’s house: the modern version changes this to emphasize Michael’s subordination to Elihom. While the author if this hymn, Elias L.T. Harrison, is not as important as Brigham Young, his hymn has been endorsed by the Church officially, to the extent that it is published in an official text used in actual worship.
 
My point about not attributing things directly to the JOD, but by referring instead to real the historical circumstance of the discourses doesn’t automatically persuade people. What it does is it sidesteps the first line of defense that happens to be the most common Mormon rebuttal. Having said that, the case for Adam-God as a revealed LDS doctrine could scarcely be stronger than it is. My usual way of bringing this up is to avoid attributing it to Brigham Young per se and attribute it primarily to Joseph Smith instead. Brigham Young, after all, did not invent Adam-God as a wild personal speculation but privately claimed it Joseph’s teaching (as attested in Wilford Woodruff’s diary), and he gave some indication in his many recorded sermons on the topic as to why he thought so. In the First General Conference ever held in Salt Lake City, Young said that God was “Michael the Archangel, THE ANCIENT OF DAYS.” What this statement reveals is that rather than a personal invention, Young is delivering a correct exegesis of the following verses of D&C:

*And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; *(D&C 27:11)

Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 116:11; cf. Dan 7)

Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 138:38). . . . .
Ah, but speeches are not the only source for the Adam-God doctrine: Brigham Young wrote it down too, criticizing the unbelief of Latter-day Saints who rejected it in a Millenial Star article in the mid-1850’s. (Millenial Star articles written between 1855-57 are actually a much better source for Adam-God teaching that the JOD.) There used to be a facsimile of that article at mrm.org, but somehow my computer has failed to connect to it for the last half-hour.

At any rate, there is at least one vestige of the Adam-God Doctrine still to be found in an official LDS publication, namely the current hymnal (current as of 2001, the printing date of my copy), which has the following song entitled “Sons of Michael He Approaches”:

Sons of Michael, he approaches! Rise, the ancient father greet.
Bow, ye thousands, low before him; Minister before his feet.
Hail the patriarch’s glad reign, Spreading over sea and main. . . . …


soren,

I’ve been down this Adam/God road many times on these forums. I’ve pointed out the link to Joseph Smith, etc.

I hope some LDS forum members will respond to your posts; because I’m not the one you have to convince. 😉

Anna
 
soren,

I’ve been down this Adam/God road many times on these forums. I’ve pointed out the link to Joseph Smith, etc.

I hope some LDS forum members will respond to your posts; because I’m not the one you have to convince. 😉

Anna
Yeah, I know. I suspect that, in reality, it is easy to convince a Mormons that 100% of the available evidence supports Adam-God as stone-cold doctrine. Anyone can see that. What is not so easy is to convince them that they should care about that fact. That is why I emphasize the point about consistent standards. If the question is just “Is the evidence for Adam-God as compelling as a mathematical proof?” that can always find a reason to say, “No.” But if the question is something like “Is the Adam-God doctrine better attested than the Gold Plates?” it is impossible to wiggle out, because this question entails some moral accountability: one of the ethical responsibilities a person takes on him or herself when doing apologetics is a obey justice by having consistent standards. If a person has one standard for the way they treat evidence against Mormonism and another standard for favorable evidence, then they really are not doing evidential apologetics at all - and evidential argumentation constitutes probably over 90% of LDS apologetic work. If something as secure as the Adam-God evidence can be dismissed, then justice and consistency demands that any evidence favorable to Mormonism can be dismissed by the same standard. Thus the entire rational case for Mormonism must be sacrificed in order to avoid Adam-God without falling into hypocrisy.

When a person uses irrational argumentation, it does not show that they have been intellectual duped. More often, it demonstrates a moral flaw: a willingness to abandon reason reveals that the person has been deceived not intellectually but spiritually. So finding a way to move the argument into moral territory can help to reveal that fact more clearly, as the conversation leads to a challenge to accountability and repentance.
 
soren,

I’ve been down this Adam/God road many times on these forums. I’ve pointed out the link to Joseph Smith, etc.

I hope some LDS forum members will respond to your posts; because I’m not the one you have to convince. 😉

Anna
Anna,
That topic has indeed been recently discussed. Here is part of my response previously:

BY was stating his own opinion in that entire instance, including his opinion you have cited at the end of his sermon that referred to the subject.

The president of the LDS church is not “greater” than the principle laid down by Joseph Smith through revelation, that united council leadership will participate in decisions that include the doctrinal teachings of the church. He is not authorized by his authority to differ from that principle. So since BY presented a teaching that was not authorized by that process, it is his own opinion and has no bearing on needing to be followed by anyone at all. Here is the applicable united council leadership principle presented in Doctrine and Covenants Section 107:

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.
25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.
27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other—
28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise—
29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men.
30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;
31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord.

After the days of Brigham Young (after he had died), as the Wikipedia article pointed out, there was never a united agreement by the leading councils of the LDS church regarding the opinion which had been presented by BY during his life on this issue. Since that issue, during the ensuing years, has become a point of contention among some members of the church (whether few or many), and since Satan is always the “father of contention” as taught by Christ–

3 Ne. 11: 29
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

–then Bruce R McConkie would have the duty as an apostle to protect the members of the LDS church from falling into the entanglement of contending or teaching about an opinion or teaching of Brigham Young that was his own personal opinion and had never been sanctioned by the Twelve within their stewardship to protect the integrity of the scriptural doctrines of the LDS church.

The use of the term “false doctrine” in your question at the end of your post, depends on the connotation intended by the one who uses the words. If anyone presents such a teaching or opinion as though it is a “doctrinal statement of belief”, then that would mean they have adopted BY’s opinion as their own opinion also and thus any such teaching by them would be “false doctrine” because it has never been sanctioned through the process established to protect the doctrinal teachings of the church, and is instead leading other members on a path of straying from those scriptural doctrinal teachings. It could just as correctly be called a “false opinion”.

Of course Elder McConkie was aware that the Adam-god theory as it came to be called originated from the opinions of Brigham Young. He said that the teachings are “heresy.” It would not be correct to say that BRM was calling BY a “heretic”, because during BY’s life the opinion was not corrected as “heresy” by the leading councils of the church.

It was an opinion that should have died with him, since all it was was an opinion, even if he had taught it using the word “doctrine”. It also should have died with him since it brings contention when discussed, and thus leads on a downward path instead of an upward path toward keeping the Spirit in one’s life and keeping the Spirit within a group discussion.
 
Anna,
That topic has indeed been recently discussed. Here is part of my response previously:

BY was stating his own opinion in that entire instance, including his opinion you have cited at the end of his sermon that referred to the subject.

The president of the LDS church is not “greater” than the principle laid down by Joseph Smith through revelation, that united council leadership will participate in decisions that include the doctrinal teachings of the church. He is not authorized by his authority to differ from that principle. So since BY presented a teaching that was not authorized by that process, it is his own opinion and has no bearing on needing to be followed by anyone at all. Here is the applicable united council leadership principle presented in Doctrine and Covenants Section 107:

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.
25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.
27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other—
28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise—
29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were righteous and holy men.
30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;
31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord.

After the days of Brigham Young (after he had died), as the Wikipedia article pointed out, there was never a united agreement by the leading councils of the LDS church regarding the opinion which had been presented by BY during his life on this issue. Since that issue, during the ensuing years, has become a point of contention among some members of the church (whether few or many), and since Satan is always the “father of contention” as taught by Christ–

3 Ne. 11: 29
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

–then Bruce R McConkie would have the duty as an apostle to protect the members of the LDS church from falling into the entanglement of contending or teaching about an opinion or teaching of Brigham Young that was his own personal opinion and had never been sanctioned by the Twelve within their stewardship to protect the integrity of the scriptural doctrines of the LDS church.

The use of the term “false doctrine” in your question at the end of your post, depends on the connotation intended by the one who uses the words. If anyone presents such a teaching or opinion as though it is a “doctrinal statement of belief”, then that would mean they have adopted BY’s opinion as their own opinion also and thus any such teaching by them would be “false doctrine” because it has never been sanctioned through the process established to protect the doctrinal teachings of the church, and is instead leading other members on a path of straying from those scriptural doctrinal teachings. It could just as correctly be called a “false opinion”.

Of course Elder McConkie was aware that the Adam-god theory as it came to be called originated from the opinions of Brigham Young. He said that the teachings are “heresy.” It would not be correct to say that BRM was calling BY a “heretic”, because during BY’s life the opinion was not corrected as “heresy” by the leading councils of the church.

It was an opinion that should have died with him, since all it was was an opinion, even if he had taught it using the word “doctrine”. It also should have died with him since it brings contention when discussed, and thus leads on a downward path instead of an upward path toward keeping the Spirit in one’s life and keeping the Spirit within a group discussion.
So, we’re back to the same old answer. It is doctrine until someone down the line says it was just opinion.

Now, to the original question. Does a “prophet” have to say, “Thus saith The Lord.” in order for it to become official church teaching, or a doctrinal statement?
 
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