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- Status
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ZenFred
Guest
Steve,
Your claim that the devil causes me to doubt is the type of Christianity I’m rejecting far more than anything about Jesus. A Muslim doesn’t say Jesus is only a prophet and not divine because the devil sudduced him or because he is an evil person. He says that because the Quran says so and he was taught that by his family and clergy. He feels the presence of God in mosque and the Quran’s account makes sense to him. Basically he believes Jesus isn’t God for the same reasons you believe he is.
Your claim that the devil causes me to doubt is the type of Christianity I’m rejecting far more than anything about Jesus. A Muslim doesn’t say Jesus is only a prophet and not divine because the devil sudduced him or because he is an evil person. He says that because the Quran says so and he was taught that by his family and clergy. He feels the presence of God in mosque and the Quran’s account makes sense to him. Basically he believes Jesus isn’t God for the same reasons you believe he is.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Fred!
So Muslims believe that Jesus is not God Because He, the Word that Existed with God and was God from the Beginning, Became Incarnate and Fulfilled all of the Promises of the Old Covenant?
Maran atha!
Angel
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steve_b
Guest
Jesus talked more about Satan and hell than anyone.
Remember Jesus said Luke 10:18 ]
They say Jesus is only a prophet and NOT God.
Jesus was tempted by Satan. It didn’t do any good but Satan still tried.
People believe all sorts of things and read all sorts of materials…that have no proofs behind them
Anybody talk to a resurrected Mohammad personally after he died?
Anybody see Mohammad ascend to heaven?
Did Mohammad perform miracles when he was alive? Raise anyone from the dead? Cure incurable sicknesses?
As for me, I don’t believe in invented history, invented religions by who knows who, or myths. I require evidence, and proofs properly referenced for what I believe.
Z
ZenFred
Guest
This is why I like this forum so much, you all challenge me. Other places I would just blank checks of agreement or straight trolling.
So my issue isn’t the incarnation or salvation or any of these issues directly.
It’s this:
Christains say that Jews and Muslims and others are heathens without full access to God’s grace and presence because they don’t accept Jesus as God and Savior. I know from experience and praying as both a Jew and a Muslim that this is not true.
Jews and Muslims say that Christains are idolaters and thus don’t have full access to God’s grace and presence. I know that’s not true. You know that’s not true.
So how am I to make sense of this? I was trying Universalism. But I now get bogged down in the details of it need to admit that I don’t know. I mean it makes sense to me, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually true. There’s a lot of things I don’t understand.
To make Universalism work, I need to adopt and redefine purgatory. Then I also have to save Abrahamic religion all together while also not throwing out the word judgment from the Bible. It gets out of hand pretty quick
So my issue isn’t the incarnation or salvation or any of these issues directly.
It’s this:
Christains say that Jews and Muslims and others are heathens without full access to God’s grace and presence because they don’t accept Jesus as God and Savior. I know from experience and praying as both a Jew and a Muslim that this is not true.
Jews and Muslims say that Christains are idolaters and thus don’t have full access to God’s grace and presence. I know that’s not true. You know that’s not true.
So how am I to make sense of this? I was trying Universalism. But I now get bogged down in the details of it need to admit that I don’t know. I mean it makes sense to me, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually true. There’s a lot of things I don’t understand.
To make Universalism work, I need to adopt and redefine purgatory. Then I also have to save Abrahamic religion all together while also not throwing out the word judgment from the Bible. It gets out of hand pretty quick
A
Autumn_Smoke
Guest
Hi ZenFred,
Please excuse me for coming into this thread, as we are already discussing similar things on another thread, but I felt that I must, because I felt I needed to add some important comments that come from Hasidic Judaism, which I know that we’re both interested in.
These things especially concern the Aleph-Bet, particularly the Aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, which is written as א.
I wanted to quote from a very good book by an Hasidic Rabbi named Rabbi Michael L. Munk. The book is called "The Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet’’ and it goes into Kabbalist symbolism in the Hebrew Alphabet.
Although Judaism does not see the Trinity in this statement, both Christianity and Messianic Judaism definitely would see a connection in the Aleph symbolizing God and it being in 3 parts.
Here is a website from a Messianic viewpoint that describes the א in much more detail.
It is worth some careful reading…seriously, please look at it.
hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Aleph/aleph.html
Yes, from the beginning, Jesus is part of the God-head, and himself one of the creators.
I could talk more about that if you’d like to PM me.
Sincerely,
Autumn Smoke
S
steve_b
Guest
God’s OLD covenant
Abraham -------> Isaac --------> Jacob----> Through Sara in that direction
NOT in this direction
Abraham--------> Ishmael through Hagar (but this is the direction Muslims claim)
Scriptural evidence for the direction of the covenant
Exodus 2:24
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exodus 3:6
And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 3:15
God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exodus 3:16
Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt;
Exodus 4:5
“that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”
Exodus 6:3
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them.
Exodus 6:8
And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; I will give it to you for a possession. I am the Lord.’”
Exodus 33:1
The Command to Leave Sinai ] The Lord said to Moses, “Depart, go up hence, you and the people whom you have brought up out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’
Leviticus 26:42
then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.
Numbers 32:11
‘Surely none of the men who came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, because they have not wholly followed me;
etc etc etc
God’s NEW Covenant through Jesus and His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
** #40** ]
Matthew 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14:24&version=RSVCE
Mark 14:24
And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
Luke 1:72
to perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant,
Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
Hebrews 8:8
For he finds fault with them when he says: “The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.
etc etc [snip for space]
Z
ZenFred
Guest
Thanks for joking autumn smoke. That’s cool about the aleph, never thought about that as 3.
So I’ve been sufficiently frustrated and humbled. Tillich talks about the church doesn’t possess God. I loved his sermon on it. But I realized that’s what I’m trying to do and I’m failing. Especially by claiming to know better than rest of everyone else with a heretical stance. I thought maybe if I just pray for wisdom and maintain humble not-knowing it would help. It certainly would be more honest that crafting a variant theology.
Are any of you familiar with Ignatian exercises?
I’ve been starting them on my own, after reading Father Martin’s book. I really should have a director but I thought I could handle it. That might be a risky call.
In the exercises you are supposed to take the Bible passage or scene and imagine being there and let it speak to you. It can be very powerful. I always surprised how my mind takes things in ways I didn’t expect.
Well the scene I did today was seeing Jesus on the cross. I had been putting it off since I knew it would be intense.
But what I saw in my meditation was terrible. I imagined Jesus on the cross as a false messiah (not saying he is just as a hypothetical). There was this guy part crazy part con artist being crucifed and he wasn’t serene but absolutely terrified begging to be taken down and spared. Mary was weeping for him and when I asked her who it was she said “my son” with no faith or belief he was anything more. There were no disciples and the passerbys just ignored him. It was absolutely terrible. I never thought thru what I’m really saying when I say I don’t believe Jesus was resurrected. It’s not just a nice story to easily dismiss, Like saying santa isn’t real. Santa doesn’t get crucified. I don’t know if that makes sense. Faced with that I don’t want to say anything negative about Jesus. I pray for forgiveness!
So I’ve been sufficiently frustrated and humbled. Tillich talks about the church doesn’t possess God. I loved his sermon on it. But I realized that’s what I’m trying to do and I’m failing. Especially by claiming to know better than rest of everyone else with a heretical stance. I thought maybe if I just pray for wisdom and maintain humble not-knowing it would help. It certainly would be more honest that crafting a variant theology.
Are any of you familiar with Ignatian exercises?
I’ve been starting them on my own, after reading Father Martin’s book. I really should have a director but I thought I could handle it. That might be a risky call.
In the exercises you are supposed to take the Bible passage or scene and imagine being there and let it speak to you. It can be very powerful. I always surprised how my mind takes things in ways I didn’t expect.
Well the scene I did today was seeing Jesus on the cross. I had been putting it off since I knew it would be intense.
But what I saw in my meditation was terrible. I imagined Jesus on the cross as a false messiah (not saying he is just as a hypothetical). There was this guy part crazy part con artist being crucifed and he wasn’t serene but absolutely terrified begging to be taken down and spared. Mary was weeping for him and when I asked her who it was she said “my son” with no faith or belief he was anything more. There were no disciples and the passerbys just ignored him. It was absolutely terrible. I never thought thru what I’m really saying when I say I don’t believe Jesus was resurrected. It’s not just a nice story to easily dismiss, Like saying santa isn’t real. Santa doesn’t get crucified. I don’t know if that makes sense. Faced with that I don’t want to say anything negative about Jesus. I pray for forgiveness!
L
LatinRight
Guest
**God bless you Po18guy and every readers of the CAF.In other words, I’m OK, You’re OK? That sounds vaguely familiar…
The salient point of inquiry here should be: who or what decided that Tillich would be the trustworthy repository of truth? And, who or what denied billions of souls that deposit of truth before Tillich was born?
**
The teachings of Universal Salvation in the Catholic Church is not new at all, many Church Fathers use to teach Universal Salvation and today more and more Catholic Priest teaching Universal Salvation.
The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church.
In fact, Archbishop Ladaria SJ. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
Universal Salvation is crucially important for more than just one reason, for example:
- If there is no Universal Salvation, then there is Absolute Double Predestination from all eternity.
- If there is no Universal Salvation, only the Church/Bride of Christ saved.
- If there is no universal Salvation, all the nations apart from the Church/Bride of Christ, predestined to hell from all eternity.
- At Christ Second Coming, Christ will come down from heaven with the Church/His Bride to rule over the nations.
- If there is no Universal Salvation, there are no nations, will have the ruling class of Christ’s Kingdom His Bride, but there are no subjects of the Kingdom, because there are no Nations as every member of the Nations predestined/condemned to hell from all eternity.
- Only God can save the human race, God’s Justice Demands universal salvation.
IT IS VERY EASY TO PROVE UNIVERSAL SALVATION STEP BY STEP AS FOLLOWS
GOD’S PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN / INTO THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has
been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it
were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that
one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been
MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
The above Theological Facts in the Scripture and the above DE FIDE Dogma more then enough proof:
Nothing to detract from God’s call and predestination to heaven/into the Bride of Christ/Salvation.
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LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
SUMMARY
**In above we have far more then enough proof: **
If there is no universal salvation, then there are absolute double predestinations.
**CONTINUATION OF THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION
EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:
(a) one to heaven …
(b) one to the pains of hell …
However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."
This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.
The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:
(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
(b) **POSITIVE REPROBATION **means the absolute will to condemn to hell.
Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
For the absolute predestination of the blessed is AT THE SAME TIME the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
**Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us? **
No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).
Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.
The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.
A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.
Continue
SUMMARY
**In above we have far more then enough proof: **
If there is no universal salvation, then there are absolute double predestinations.
**CONTINUATION OF THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION
EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:
(a) one to heaven …
(b) one to the pains of hell …
However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."
This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.
The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:
(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
(b) **POSITIVE REPROBATION **means the absolute will to condemn to hell.
Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
For the absolute predestination of the blessed is AT THE SAME TIME the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
**Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us? **
No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).
Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.
The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.
A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.
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LatinRight
Guest
Continuation from page 2.
SUMMARY
With the absolute predestination, God predestined the Bride of Christ/Church WITHOUT regard to any future supernatural merits, AT THE SAME TIME God with an absolute predestination predestined the rest of the Nations to hell.
Titus 3:5;
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
As you see above Po18guy, they are not elected because they were super-stars of righteous workers, they elected solely by the grace of God and what they become, they become by God’s RECREATION and by the GRACE and the MERCY of God, and all their achievements they had it was the GIFTS of God.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
The Bride of Christ predestined for Eternal Life SOLELY BY THE GRACE AND THE MERCY OF GOD.
God’s Justice and Mercy DEMANDS!!! the salvation of the rest of the human race as well IN THE SAME WAY!!! by the Justice and the Mercy of God.
God is claiming in the Scripture, He wish to save every members of the rest of the Nations as well whom He has with an absolute predestination, predestined them to hell from all eternity, and His predestination of them to hell made their salvation a metaphysical impossibility.
God is claiming in the Scripture, wish to save every members of the Nations, yet at the same time, God has to take care that all members of the Nations who are not members of the Bride of Christ, must die in their sins and end up in hell.
The above 5 points says it all, reprobation (anyone end up in hell), cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
Continue
SUMMARY
- Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it CAN NOT BE harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
- For the absolute predestination of the blessed is AT THE SAME TIME the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
With the absolute predestination, God predestined the Bride of Christ/Church WITHOUT regard to any future supernatural merits, AT THE SAME TIME God with an absolute predestination predestined the rest of the Nations to hell.
Titus 3:5;
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
As you see above Po18guy, they are not elected because they were super-stars of righteous workers, they elected solely by the grace of God and what they become, they become by God’s RECREATION and by the GRACE and the MERCY of God, and all their achievements they had it was the GIFTS of God.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
The Bride of Christ predestined for Eternal Life SOLELY BY THE GRACE AND THE MERCY OF GOD.
God’s Justice and Mercy DEMANDS!!! the salvation of the rest of the human race as well IN THE SAME WAY!!! by the Justice and the Mercy of God.
- How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
God is claiming in the Scripture, He wish to save every members of the rest of the Nations as well whom He has with an absolute predestination, predestined them to hell from all eternity, and His predestination of them to hell made their salvation a metaphysical impossibility.
- He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.
- Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
God is claiming in the Scripture, wish to save every members of the Nations, yet at the same time, God has to take care that all members of the Nations who are not members of the Bride of Christ, must die in their sins and end up in hell.
The above 5 points says it all, reprobation (anyone end up in hell), cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**FOR GOD TO SAVE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IS VERY SIMPLE **
( Easier then to take care that the Nations die in their sins.)
Infallible teachings of the Trent, it is also in perfect harmony with the Scripture Rom14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil. 2:13; etc.
God has a special grace, called: The Gift of Final Perseverance.
According to the infallible teachings of the Trent, based on the Scripture.
Anyone who is a receiver of this grace, The Gift Final Perseverance can never die in the state of mortal sin.
Without The Gift of Final Perseverance no one could die in the state of grace.
So, if God really means that His will is that no one perish, God only need to do as follows:
Give every member of the human race His grace The Gift of Initial Justification which saves the receivers, and His grace The Gift of Finial Perseverance which keep saved the Initially Justified and infallible makes sure the receivers die in the state of grace, in this way the Universal Salvation is achieved by God. – It is plain and simple.
Christ sacrifice on the cross opened up the reality of Universal Salvation and as the human race CAN NOT save themselves, only God can save the human race, God’s Mercy and Justice demands Universal Salvation, which is the will and the plan of God from all Eternity.
1 John 2:2;
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
In the light of the above theological facts, we cannot be surprised that many early Church Fathers knew the above theological facts and they have taught that all will finally be saved.
The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and these days more and more Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
The following early Fathers of the Church are said to have taught that all will finally be saved.
Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.
**There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:
Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)
EDITORIAL REVIEWS**
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"
Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Archbishop Ladaria SJ. teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
Excerpt from: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.
Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).
The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].
Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.
Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.
Continue
**FOR GOD TO SAVE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IS VERY SIMPLE **
( Easier then to take care that the Nations die in their sins.)
Infallible teachings of the Trent, it is also in perfect harmony with the Scripture Rom14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil. 2:13; etc.
God has a special grace, called: The Gift of Final Perseverance.
According to the infallible teachings of the Trent, based on the Scripture.
Anyone who is a receiver of this grace, The Gift Final Perseverance can never die in the state of mortal sin.
Without The Gift of Final Perseverance no one could die in the state of grace.
So, if God really means that His will is that no one perish, God only need to do as follows:
Give every member of the human race His grace The Gift of Initial Justification which saves the receivers, and His grace The Gift of Finial Perseverance which keep saved the Initially Justified and infallible makes sure the receivers die in the state of grace, in this way the Universal Salvation is achieved by God. – It is plain and simple.
Christ sacrifice on the cross opened up the reality of Universal Salvation and as the human race CAN NOT save themselves, only God can save the human race, God’s Mercy and Justice demands Universal Salvation, which is the will and the plan of God from all Eternity.
1 John 2:2;
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
In the light of the above theological facts, we cannot be surprised that many early Church Fathers knew the above theological facts and they have taught that all will finally be saved.
The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and these days more and more Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
The following early Fathers of the Church are said to have taught that all will finally be saved.
Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.
**There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:
Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)
EDITORIAL REVIEWS**
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"
Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Archbishop Ladaria SJ. teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
Excerpt from: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.
Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).
The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].
Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.
Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.
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LatinRight
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Continuation
Without going into the fine details:
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including every member of the entire human race.
Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.
Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST
Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
As we see above, if there is no Universal Salvation, the Nations condemned to hell, and only the Church/Bride of Christ saved.
Christ will come down from heaven with His Bride to rule over all the Nations, no Universal Salvation, no Nations, then Christ will rules with His Bride over whom???
**DOES UNIVERSAL SALVATION INSPIRES US TO BE CARELESS CHRISTIANS?
No, exactly the opposite is the truth!!!**
IT IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO OUR BEST DURING OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION!!!
At our Initial Justification God irrevocably set us up to Heaven, to the Bride of Christ, of course with Christ we will come down from heaven for rule over all the Nations with Christ CCC 677; Dan.7:21-22; etc.
During our Progressive Justification, as we are members of the Bride of Christ/Church, by our Works of Love, we set up our position and glory in Heaven/In the Bride of Christ by our cooperation with the grace of God.
Christ will rules over the Nations with us, our future positions depends on the way we are acting today.
Continue
Without going into the fine details:
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including every member of the entire human race.
Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.
Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST
Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
As we see above, if there is no Universal Salvation, the Nations condemned to hell, and only the Church/Bride of Christ saved.
Christ will come down from heaven with His Bride to rule over all the Nations, no Universal Salvation, no Nations, then Christ will rules with His Bride over whom???
**DOES UNIVERSAL SALVATION INSPIRES US TO BE CARELESS CHRISTIANS?
No, exactly the opposite is the truth!!!**
IT IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO OUR BEST DURING OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION!!!
At our Initial Justification God irrevocably set us up to Heaven, to the Bride of Christ, of course with Christ we will come down from heaven for rule over all the Nations with Christ CCC 677; Dan.7:21-22; etc.
During our Progressive Justification, as we are members of the Bride of Christ/Church, by our Works of Love, we set up our position and glory in Heaven/In the Bride of Christ by our cooperation with the grace of God.
Christ will rules over the Nations with us, our future positions depends on the way we are acting today.
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LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
THE EXAMPLE OF THE UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF NINEVEH
**1. GOD’S PROMISE TO NINEVEH: **
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
1. GOD’S PROMISE TO THE HUMAN RACE:
Apart from a few people** I will throw everyone to hell.**
2. GOD HAS CHANGED HIS MIND and didn’t bring on the destruction on Nineveh.
Jonah 3:10; When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
Of course, God saved the more then hundred and twenty thousand persons in Nineveh as it is described below.
**2. GOD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND in the same way as in Nineveh and will don’t bring destruction/hell on the human race. **
Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Did you notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all the nations as well.
Of course some members of the Nation of Israel are members of the Bride of Christ.
CCC 677; … which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
At Christ’s second coming, His Bride will come down from heaven with Christ, and they will rule over the nations.
The way God saved Nineveh, the same way He will save the human race.
It is His will that everyone saved, only He can do it, apart from Him (we are in Christ and He is acting in us) we can do nothing.
3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR NINEVEH:
Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?
3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR THE HUMAN RACE:
John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Col.1:20;
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
God bless you Po18guy and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
THE EXAMPLE OF THE UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF NINEVEH
**1. GOD’S PROMISE TO NINEVEH: **
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
1. GOD’S PROMISE TO THE HUMAN RACE:
Apart from a few people** I will throw everyone to hell.**
2. GOD HAS CHANGED HIS MIND and didn’t bring on the destruction on Nineveh.
Jonah 3:10; When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
Of course, God saved the more then hundred and twenty thousand persons in Nineveh as it is described below.
**2. GOD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND in the same way as in Nineveh and will don’t bring destruction/hell on the human race. **
Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Did you notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all the nations as well.
Of course some members of the Nation of Israel are members of the Bride of Christ.
CCC 677; … which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
At Christ’s second coming, His Bride will come down from heaven with Christ, and they will rule over the nations.
The way God saved Nineveh, the same way He will save the human race.
It is His will that everyone saved, only He can do it, apart from Him (we are in Christ and He is acting in us) we can do nothing.
3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR NINEVEH:
Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?
3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR THE HUMAN RACE:
John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Col.1:20;
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
God bless you Po18guy and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
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steve_b
Guest
LatinRight,
If there is universal salvation, as in everyone is saved and goes to heaven, no matter what,
then what do you do with the following?
Jesus who will do all judging, answered the question in advance about who and how many will be saved.
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?”And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,
Jesus knowing in advance what He is going to go through, and all humanity will go through, down to the last person born, answers that question
Only a few are saved.
meaning in extension that most therefore, go to hell.
that said,
those souls in purgatory ultimately go to heaven, so they are counted in with the few
If there is universal salvation, as in everyone is saved and goes to heaven, no matter what,
then what do you do with the following?
Jesus who will do all judging, answered the question in advance about who and how many will be saved.
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?”And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,
Jesus knowing in advance what He is going to go through, and all humanity will go through, down to the last person born, answers that question
Code:
• Jesus didn’t deny the questioner’s point.
• Jesus actually validated the point, and expanded on it.meaning in extension that most therefore, go to hell.
that said,
those souls in purgatory ultimately go to heaven, so they are counted in with the few
L
LatinRight
Guest
**God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.
Thank you for your post and your question.**
Only those whom God predestined to heaven, the members of the Bride of Christ goes to heaven no one else.
The rest of the nations will saved on the Earth (the same way as the members of the Bride of Christ) and they will stay on the Earth.
At Christ Second Coming He will comes down from heaven** with His Bride and will rules over the Nations with His bride.**
God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race.
The way God changed His mind about the condemnation of Nineveh, God will change His mind about the condemnation of the rest of the Nation.
The way God saves the Bride of Christ, the same way God will save the rest of the Nations by Recreation and Justification as it is described below.
Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.
28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Did you notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all nations as well.
The way God has His Eternal Plan with the Bride of Christ, the same way God has an Eternal Plan with the rest of the Nations as well. – NOT IN HELL!!!
Do you think Steve, you and I deserved more to be saved and elected to be members of the Bride of Christ then the rest of the members of the Nations? – I don’t think so.
We have been saved purely by the grace of God, without deserving it in any shape or form.
God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
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steve_b
Guest
And thank you for your response LatinRite. :tiphat:
I’ll just say, on this, It’s NOT what I think that is important, other than, I won’t second guess Jesus on what He said and validated. Only a few are saved. #35 ]
All I can do, is do my best to cooperate with everything He wants of me persevering to the end, so that hopefully I am in the few at the end
I would just add the following, it was from a homily
youtube.com/watch?v=FeQNdXu-Uvc
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Fred!This is why I like this forum so much, you all challenge me. Other places I would just blank checks of agreement or straight trolling.
So my issue isn’t the incarnation or salvation or any of these issues directly.
It’s this:
Christains say that Jews and Muslims and others are heathens without full access to God’s grace and presence because they don’t accept Jesus as God and Savior. I know from experience and praying as both a Jew and a Muslim that this is not true.
Jews and Muslims say that Christains are idolaters and thus don’t have full access to God’s grace and presence. I know that’s not true. You know that’s not true.
So how am I to make sense of this? I was trying Universalism. But I now get bogged down in the details of it need to admit that I don’t know. I mean it makes sense to me, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually true. There’s a lot of things I don’t understand.
To make Universalism work, I need to adopt and redefine purgatory. Then I also have to save Abrahamic religion all together while also not throwing out the word judgment from the Bible. It gets out of hand pretty quick
Israel failed Yahweh God as they went after non-gods over and over again; so God Prophesied Through Moses that He would Send another Prophet and that to Him people would listen; He also stated that Israel only gave Him “lip service:”
(Isaiah 29:13-14)
It is Yahweh God that states that Israel will be blinded because of their disobedience. Further He states:
(Isaiah 28:16)
…and it is Revealed that Jesus is this very Stone:
(Romans 9:27-10:13)
4 He is the living stone, rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him; set yourselves close to him 5 so that you too, the holy priesthood that offers the spiritual sacrifices which Jesus Christ has made acceptable to God, may be living stones making a spiritual house. 6 As scripture says: See how I lay in Zion a precious cornerstone that I have chosen and the man who rests his trust on it will not be disappointed. 7 That means that for you who are believers, it is precious; but for unbelievers, the stone rejected by the builders has proved to be the keystone, 8 a stone to stumble over, a rock to bring men down. They stumble over it because they do not believe in the word; it was the fate in store for them. 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people at all and now you are the People of God; once you were outside the mercy and now you have been given mercy. (1 St. Peter 2:4-10)
As for the Muslims… their inception was as forced conversions at the sword’s edge: believe or be decapitated; this practice has not stopped; it is the religion that professes ‘kill those who do not believe’–rape, extortion, slavery, torture, terrorism, lies, deceit, corruption… all are means to serve their god’s thirst to murder those who do not accept him.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Fred!
…heard of the term “projecting?”
That’s hollowood’s spirituality (and one that is followed by scores of millions): take a belief and work around it; you went seeking a vision which your preconception was more than willing to make “happen.”
In your construct you saw Jesus as He is in your heart and understanding.
You reject Jesus as your Lord and Savior (if you look into the Old Covenant Sacred Writings you will find that only Yahweh God is the True Living God and that only Yahweh God is Lord and Savior).
You reject the New Covenant Sacred Writings so you cannot but depart from the Truth to any construct–including your own; there you find solace; your desire to not Believe is rewarded.
…here’s what Jesus says about those who do not Believe:
(St. John 12:47-50)
…you want to Believe… you want to stop thinking negatively about Jesus? Begin by accepting the Word of God; allow the Holy Spirit to Convict you; accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior; stop dissecting Scriptures as though you can place God bare in front of you… humble your mind and your heart and, as Scriptures say, *He *will lift you up!
Maran atha!
Angel
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ZenFred
Guest
Thanks. I don’t know if you saw my last post on this thread about Ignatian exercise of encountering Christ on the cross.
But I’ve had some more time to reflect and pray too. I feel called to be theologicaly undecided and to stop trying to take a stance on things. I don’t think writing about theology is what God wants me to do nor is doing anyone any good. It definitely causes me anxiety.
I clearly saw that I shouldn’t reject Christ nor even really say it’s unlikely the He isn’t God. If He isn’t divine or a messianic savior then the history of the church throughout the ages is a terrible tragedy, not just a slight, well meaning mistake. Many people have died because of the question “Who do you say that I am?” It’s not something I can have just an opinion over. Morally and fearing God, I shouldn’t speak on the topic unless I’m certain.
I really appreciate you helping me realisize this. I hope I will be a better person and stronger in faith because of it.
I’m going to still post but about less contraversial stuff. I’m very interested in monasticism, the Jesuits, Hebrew Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy. There are many knowledge people here on those topics.
You said “stop dissecting Scriptures as though you can place God bare in front of you… humble your mind and your heart and, as Scriptures say, He will lift you up!”
I’m going to try to take your advice.
-Fred
- Status