Tillich's You are Accepted (Universalism)

[jcrichton]

Continuation

THE EXAMPLE OF THE UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF NINEVEH

God bless you Po18guy and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi, Latin Right!

Again, I thank you for your efforts in your contributions… but I keep asking you to consider that universal salvation and predestination and double predestination negates all of the Scriptures that demonstrate the contrary to be God’s Word of Salvation and Damnation:

14 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be condemned; but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son. 19 On these grounds is sentence pronounced: that though the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear his actions should be exposed; 21 but the man who lives by the truth comes out into the light, so that it may be plainly seen that what he does is done in God;’

(St. John 3:14-21)
Every single passage in Scriptures that places Jesus as the Savior of humanity is made void if all have been predestined to Salvation regardless of their determination to reject God and remain in unrighteousness.

Every single Word in Scriptures where Yahweh God Calls man to repent and to Be Holy is made null and void by predestination and double predestination.

Every single Word in Scriptures that Calls man to put on Christ is superfluous, as is every single Word in Scriptures that demand that we Walk in the Spirit, that we Love God above all and our neighbor as ourselves, and that demands that we humbly confess to God our sins, that we refrain from sin and that we Walk in Him–so basically you can take out all of the New Testament, the Prophets, Moses, the Law, and even the Psalms… you can leave some of those “good feeling” writings where there’s a time for everything and life is but vanity.

Yes, you quote well; but no, what you quote is not in tune with Scriptures; rather, I would say that you have taken liberties in puzzling together thoughts that were not Dogmatic Teachings and offer them as the Teaching of the Church:

Predestination and Double Predestination

:
If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema (CANON XVII). (Click here to read the full context of the canon.) (catholicexchange.com/church-say-predestination)
On Salvation:
Pius IX (Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863) taught: “God… in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of voluntary fault.” Vatican II (Lumen gentium # 16) taught the same: “They who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation.” Pius XII had said (Mystici Corporis Christi) that one can “be related to the Church by a certain desire and wish of which he is not aware”, i.e., by the desire to do what God wills in general.

Precisely how does this work out? We saw on our very first page that St. Paul insists (Romans 3:29) that God makes provision in some way for all. We saw that one of the earliest Fathers, St. Justin Martyr (Apology 1:46) said that some, like Socrates could even be Christians because they followed the divine Word. Now St. Justin also said that the Divine Word is in the hearts of all. Then we notice in St. Paul’s Romans 2:14-16 that “The gentiles who do not have the law [revealed religion] do by nature the things of the law; they show the work of the law written on their hearts.” And according to their response, they will or will not be saved.

Clearly, it is this Divine Word, or the Spirit of Christ, the Divine Word, that writes the law on their hearts, i.e., makes known to them what they should do. If they follow that, although they do not know that that is what they are following, yet objectively, they do follow the Logos, the divine Word. And so St. Justin was right in calling them Christians. We can add that St. Paul in Romans 8:9 makes clear that if one has and follows the Spirit of Christ, he “belongs to Christ.” But, to belong to Christ is the same as being a member of Christ, and that is the same as being a member of the Church. Not indeed by formal adherence, but yet substantially, enough to satisfy the requirement of substantial membership. Indeed, Vatican II even wrote (LG # 49): “All who belong to Christ, having His Spirit, coalesce into one Church.”

So, St. Paul was right: God does take care of them; St. Justin was right too: they can be Christians without knowing it. Otherwise, God would be sending millions upon millions to hell without giving them any chance at all, if they lived far from places where the Church was known, e.g., in the western hemisphere before 1492.
Christ made it possible for all to be Saved; no God does not force Salvation on anyone.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

**God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post and your question.**

Only those whom God predestined to heaven, the members of the Bride of Christ goes to heaven no one else.

The rest of the nations will saved on the Earth (the same way as the members of the Bride of Christ) and they will stay on the Earth.

At Christ Second Coming He will comes down from heaven** with His Bride and will rules over the Nations with His bride.**

God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race.

The way God changed His mind about the condemnation of Nineveh, God will change His mind about the condemnation of the rest of the Nation.

The way God saves the Bride of Christ, the same way God will save the rest of the Nations by Recreation and Justification as it is described below.

Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Did you notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all nations as well.

The way God has His Eternal Plan with the Bride of Christ, the same way God has an Eternal Plan with the rest of the Nations as well. – NOT IN HELL!!!

Do you think Steve, you and I deserved more to be saved and elected to be members of the Bride of Christ then the rest of the members of the Nations? – I don’t think so.

We have been saved purely by the grace of God, without deserving it in any shape or form.

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi, Latin Right!

…yet, even if we were to accept such understanding, it throws out every single passage that deals with hell and the Second Death–which by association would throw out Jesus and any Apostle that made reference to hell and the lake of the never ending fire. Through this understanding, the Day of Judgment becomes nothing more than a day of allocation of resources:

12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of his throne, while the book of life was opened, and other books opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives, by which the dead were judged. 13 The sea gave up all the dead who were in it; 14 Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged according to the way in which he had lived. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; 15 and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was thrown into the burning lake.

21:3 Then I heard a loud voice call from the throne, ‘You see this city? Here God lives among men. He will make his home among them; they shall be his people, and he will be their God; his name is God-with-them. 4 He will wipe away all tears from their eyes; there will be no more death, and no more mourning or sadness. The world of the past has gone.’ 5 Then the One sitting on the throne spoke: ‘Now I am making the whole of creation new’ he said. ‘Write this: that what I am saying is sure and will come true.’ 6 And then he said, ‘It is already done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water from the well of life free to anybody who is thirsty; 7 it is the rightful inheritance of the one who proves victorious; and I will be his God and he a son to me. 8 But the legacy for cowards, for those who break their word, or worship obscenities, for murderers and fornicators, and for fortune-tellers, idolaters or any other sort of liars, is the second death in the burning lake of sulphur.’

(Apocalypse [Revelation] 20:12-15; 21:3-8)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thanks. I don’t know if you saw my last post on this thread about Ignatian exercise of encountering Christ on the cross.
But I’ve had some more time to reflect and pray too. I feel called to be theologicaly undecided and to stop trying to take a stance on things. I don’t think writing about theology is what God wants me to do nor is doing anyone any good. It definitely causes me anxiety.
I clearly saw that I shouldn’t reject Christ nor even really say it’s unlikely the He isn’t God. If He isn’t divine or a messianic savior then the history of the church throughout the ages is a terrible tragedy, not just a slight, well meaning mistake. Many people have died because of the question “Who do you say that I am?” It’s not something I can have just an opinion over. Morally and fearing God, I shouldn’t speak on the topic unless I’m certain.

I really appreciate you helping me realisize this. I hope I will be a better person and stronger in faith because of it.
I’m going to still post but about less contraversial stuff. I’m very interested in monasticism, the Jesuits, Hebrew Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy. There are many knowledge people here on those topics.

You said “stop dissecting Scriptures as though you can place God bare in front of you… humble your mind and your heart and, as Scriptures say, He will lift you up!”
I’m going to try to take your advice.

-Fred

Hi, Fred!

I will leave you with this final passage:

21 Jesus said: ‘Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know: for salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the hour will come –** in fact it is here already – when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth: that is the kind of worshipper the Father wants. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth**

.’ (St. John 4:21-24)
If Jesus is not God, why does He take so many liberties… and the Jews did not stone Him to death, almost immediately; why did He perform all the miracles that He did, and why did His Prophecy about Worshiping God came through, as the Temple was deconstructed ('not a stone upon a stone will be left") and Judaism remained a minor religious group while Christianity evolved into the billions of Worshipers that, as you have attested, Stand for Christ Jesus, the Immanuel, even when facing death or rejection of God?

God is Spirit and True Believers will Worship in the Holy Spirit and Truth (Jesus, God that saves).

If something brings you anxiety, it could be that you are engaged in the wrong exercise or that you are being prompted by God to seek His Way and not ours. In either case, slowing down or even stopping for a breather or two is well advisable.

May the Holy Spirit Guide your heart and mind!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LatinRight]

And thank you for your response LatinRite. :tiphat:

I’ll just say, on this, It’s NOT what I think that is important, other than, I won’t second guess Jesus on what He said and validated. Only a few are saved. #35 ]

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post and the youtube suggestion to watch, unfortunately I have 90 % hearing loss so I couldn’t watch it.

I believe in general the Catholic teachings is the best on Salvation and Predestination.

For a long time, 29 years I believed only a few people saved.

One of my friend told me he is attending a group study teaching by a Catholic Priest and he is teaching Universal Salvation, and I was horrified that he is teaching heresy to the group.

So, I decided to study the subject and **prove for them there is no Universal Salvation.
**

After a long and serious study I realized, the Catholic Priest is not teaching heresy, in fact he is teaching the truth.

From the Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church on the related subjects I realized Universal Salvation is Correct.

From the Scripture alone I couldn’t work out Universal Salvation is a correct teaching, the related subjects of **the teachings of the Catholic Church was a good help for me to see God’s plan of Universal Salvation. **

Technically Salvation is the same if only the Church/Bride of Christ saved or + the addition of the Nations.

The technicality of salvation is exactly the same, only the numbers of the saved different, but not the way the technicality of salvation.

But and there is a VERY BIG BUT, those Catholic Theologians who wrote the Catholic Encyclopedia are correct when they say:

**THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION

EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven …

(b) one to the pains of hell …

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."

This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.

The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:

(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

(b) **POSITIVE REPROBATION **means the absolute will to condemn to hell.

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.

For the absolute predestination of the blessed is AT THE SAME TIME the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.

How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?

He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.

Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.

**Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us? **

No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).

Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.

The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.

A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.

What is missing above is, the Salvation of the Nations, Universal Salvation!!!

In the above economy, apart from the Church/Bride of Christ, the rest of all Nations predestined to hell:

(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

All Nations eternal damnation is certain with an Absolute Predestination to hell from all eternity.

Something to think about before someone dismiss Universal Salvation.

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post and the youtube suggestion to watch, unfortunately I have 90 % hearing loss so I couldn’t watch it.

I believe in general the Catholic teachings is the best on Salvation and Predestination.

For a long time, 29 years I believed only a few people saved.

One of my friend told me he is attending a group study teaching by a Catholic Priest and he is teaching Universal Salvation, and I was horrified that he is teaching heresy to the group.

So, I decided to study the subject and **prove for them there is no Universal Salvation.
**

After a long and serious study I realized, the Catholic Priest is not teaching heresy, in fact he is teaching the truth.

From the Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church on the related subjects I realized Universal Salvation is Correct.

From the Scripture alone I couldn’t work out Universal Salvation is a correct teaching, the related subjects of **the teachings of the Catholic Church was a good help for me to see God’s plan of Universal Salvation. **

Technically Salvation is the same if only the Church/Bride of Christ saved or + the addition of the Nations.

The technicality of salvation is exactly the same, only the numbers of the saved different, but not the way the technicality of salvation.

But and there is a VERY BIG BUT, those Catholic Theologians who wrote the Catholic Encyclopedia are correct when they say:

**THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION

EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven …

(b) one to the pains of hell …

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."

This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.

The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:

(a) NEGATIVE REPROBATION merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

(b) POSITIVE REPROBATION means the absolute will to condemn to hell.

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.

For the absolute predestination of the blessed is AT THE SAME TIME the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.

How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?

He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.

Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.

**Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us? **

No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).

Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.

The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.

A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.

What is missing above is, the Salvation of the Nations, Universal Salvation!!!

In the above economy, apart from the Church/Bride of Christ, the rest of all Nations predestined to hell:

(a) NEGATIVE REPROBATION merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

All Nations eternal damnation is certain with an Absolute Predestination to hell from all eternity.

Something to think about before someone dismiss Universal Salvation.

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Cutting to the chase LatinRite,

From the foundation of the world,

• God knows everyone who will ever be born and who is in the book of life .
• He knows from the beginning of the world, what everyone will choose. He knows who will be saved and who won’t.
• God predestines what He for knows.
• When God says few will be saved, And He tells us this in advance #[35 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14879121&postcount=35) ] , I believe Him.

 

[jcrichton]

Cutting to the chase LatinRite,

From the foundation of the world,

• God knows everyone who will ever be born and who is in the book of life .
• He knows from the beginning of the world, what everyone will choose. He knows who will be saved and who won’t.
• God predestines what He for knows.
• When God says few will be saved, And He tells us this in advance #[35 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14879121&postcount=35) ] , I believe Him.

Hi, Steve!

Mostly, people with “good intentions” want to see a Salvation that is universal because they want all to be saved; they equate damnation with “a God of Love cannot allow anyone to be damned!”

They use eisegesis instead of exegesis to formulate “universalism.”

Yet, God’s Foreknowledge does not mean that God Wills anything–specially not the damnation of anyone at all.

They can’t seem to make a distinction between these two and incongruent terms (Foreknowledge vs Will–cause).

As adults we know many of the perils of life that young children and toddlers have not experienced. In our foreknowledge (from their perspective) we can warn them to not reach for things on the stove-top because it is dangerous. We know that boiling water/oil will scold and probably even bring death to a young child. Yet, we do not will a child/toddler to reach for things on the stove nor to scold or fatally hurt themselves.

Then there’s the freewill thing; everyone wants to own up to their “right” to do as they please while, simultaneously, holding God accountable for their eternal Security! (It’s the reckless driver syndrome–‘I onw the road; get out of my path!’)

The fact that God has in deed provided for man’s means to obtain Eternal Life is dismissed because that Providence Requires that man submit his will to God’s Will!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

Hi, Steve!

Mostly, people with “good intentions” want to see a Salvation that is universal because they want all to be saved; they equate damnation with “a God of Love cannot allow anyone to be damned!”

They use eisegesis instead of exegesis to formulate “universalism.”

Yet, God’s Foreknowledge does not mean that God Wills anything–specially not the damnation of anyone at all.

They can’t seem to make a distinction between these two and incongruent terms (Foreknowledge vs Will–cause).

As adults we know many of the perils of life that young children and toddlers have not experienced. In our foreknowledge (from their perspective) we can warn them to not reach for things on the stove-top because it is dangerous. We know that boiling water/oil will scold and probably even bring death to a young child. Yet, we do not will a child/toddler to reach for things on the stove nor to scold or fatally hurt themselves.

Then there’s the freewill thing; everyone wants to own up to their “right” to do as they please while, simultaneously, holding God accountable for their eternal Security! (It’s the reckless driver syndrome–‘I onw the road; get out of my path!’)

The fact that God has in deed provided for man’s means to obtain Eternal Life is dismissed because that Providence Requires that man submit his will to God’s Will!

Maran atha!

Angel

True.

1 Timothy 2:4 doesn’t mean He forces everyone to be saved nor accept that knowledge of truth.

nor does God predestine anyone to hell. That only comes by humanities personal choices that they make. 1037

Thus we know from Jesus in advance #35 ], from the one who judges all, who can’t lie or deceive, how humanity does in eternity.

 

[jcrichton]

True.

1 Timothy 2:4 doesn’t mean He forces everyone to be saved nor accept that knowledge of truth.

nor does God predestine anyone to hell. That only comes by humanities personal choices that they make. 1037

Thus we know from Jesus in advance #35 ], from the one who judges all, who can’t lie or deceive, how humanity does in eternity.

Hi, Steve!

:bowdown2:

Excellent use of links!

I just wish that most people would follow such clear demonstration of God’s Providence and man’s ability to exercise freewill to either humbly Fellowship with God or accept the consequences of his determinate decision to go it on his own.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LatinRight]

Cutting to the chase LatinRite,

From the foundation of the world,

• God knows everyone who will ever be born and who is in the book of life .
• He knows from the beginning of the world, what everyone will choose. He knows who will be saved and who won’t.
• God predestines what He for knows.
• When God says few will be saved, And He tells us this in advance #[35 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14879121&postcount=35) ] , I believe Him.

**God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

You said Steve:**
• He knows from the beginning of the world, what everyone will choose. He knows who will be saved and who won’t.

God knows from the beginning of the world that NO ONE IS ABLE TO CHOOSE GOD WITHOUT GOD SAVES MAN FIRST, BECAUSE MAN CAN DO NOTHING TO SAVE HIMSELF!!!..

Every men chooses God after God chosen every men and recreated them as it is described in Ez.36:26-28; etc.

First God choose man, recreate them (Initially Justified, SAVED), after recreation they receives God’s Gift of Final Perseverance which keeps them SAVED and then and ONLY THEN, everyone choose God NO EXCEPTION!!!

NO ONE can be saved, and being saved and to die in the state of grace any different way, any teaching different then described above IS HERESY against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

**FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS
**
Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

MEANING man does NOTHING, to enter a state of justification. End quote.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE FACTS

When God calls and draws an Initially Justified/elect into His service/salvation WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. and without regard to any future supernatural merits, His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.

NO ONE CAN RESIST INITIAL JUSTIFICATION FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS (Only some examples.)

First reason: In our fallen state, we are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

Second reason: Our initial justification and born again at our Initial Justification is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God takes us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.

MAN CAN DO NOTHING TO SAVE HIMSELF

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you. It is clear, God’s election into Salvation is 100 % His choice and 0 % man’s choice.

Man cannot choose God and man cannot go to God for Salvation, first God SAVE man, then gives him His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which keep the receiver Saved and infallible makes sure the receiver dies in the state of grace.

A person without God’s gift of Initial Justification and without God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance is equal as he has predestined to hell from all eternity!!!..

God predestines no one to hell which means, God gives everyone His gift of Initial Justification and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. – So who can end up in heel? No one!!!

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**Seems like to me you Steve have learned nothing for Jonah.

In Jonah God showed us His PATTERN of Universal Salvation.**

THE EXAMPLE AND THE PATTERN OF THE UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF NINEVEH

GOD TOLD IN ADVANCE

**1. GOD’S PROMISE TO NINEVEH: **

Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

1. GOD’S PROMISE TO THE HUMAN RACE:

Apart from a few people** I will throw everyone to hell.**

**GOD CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT DESTRUCTION AND HELL
**

2. GOD HAS CHANGED HIS MIND and didn’t bring on the destruction on Nineveh.

Jonah 3:10; When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

Of course, God saved the more then hundred and twenty thousand persons in Nineveh as it is described below.

**2. GOD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND in the same way as in Nineveh and will don’t bring destruction/hell on the human race. **

Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Did you notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all the nations as well.

Of course some members of the Nation of Israel are members of the Bride of Christ.

CCC 677; … which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.

At Christ’s second coming, His Bride will come down from heaven with Christ, and they will rule over the nations.

The way God saved Nineveh, the same way He will save the human race.

It is His will that everyone saved, only He can do it, apart from Him (we are in Christ and He is acting in us) we can do nothing.

GOD’S UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF NINEVEH AND THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE – 1 Tim.2-4; 2 Pet.3:8-9; Rim.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; etc.

3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR NINEVEH:

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?

3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR THE HUMAN RACE:

John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Col.1:20;
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I’m sorry Steve it seems to me, you have bogged down with Jonah 3:4 and with Matt.7:13-14.

Jonah 3:10; Jonah 4:11; already happened and you still cannot see it.

**Jonah 4:11; for Nineveh is the same then for us, Ehp.1:10; 1 Col.1:20; etc. **

Ehp.1:10; 1 Col.1:20; etc. will fulfil on us as Jonah 4:11 fulfilled on Nineveh we can be sure about it.

**It is time to move on and to have FAITH IN God’s will of 1 Tim.2-4; 2 Pet.3:8-9; and His ability of Rim.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; etc. **

It is time to develop in spiritual knowledge and it is time to see God’s wonderful promise of Universal Salvation described in John 12:32; 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.1:10; Col.1:20; Rom.5:18; etc.

In your above post Steve you demonstrated you can see only Jonah 3:4;

Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

**But you don’t see or don’t want to see Jonah 4:11; **

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?

GOD’S PROMISE OF DESTRUCTION AND HELL

Jonah 3:4; corresponds with Matt.7:13-14 = Encouragement to do the wright things!!!

For the human race this life in earth compare the life after God’s WONDERFUL Universal Salvation is hell.

GOD CHANGED HIS MIND = GOD’S UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Jonah 4:11; corresponds with Eph.1:10, Col.1:20; Rom.5:18; etc. = Universal Salvation!!!

So, we cut the chase Steve b, God’s will is Universal Salvation and God has what it takes to save everyone.

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

LatrinRight,

in your understanding, If everyone is saved and goes to heaven, no matter what, and NO ONE has to worry about hell, or going there, which is what you are saying

Then you haven’t answered Jesus when He said #35 ]

Please read this
ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=620118

 

[steve_b]

LatrinRight,

in your understanding, If everyone is saved and goes to heaven, no matter what, and NO ONE has to worry about hell, or going there, which is what you are saying

Then you haven’t answered Jesus, who judges ALL, when He said #35 ]

Please read this, ALL of it.
ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=620118

 

[steve_b]

LatinRight

I will add this to my previous post

catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-is-hell

 

[steve_b]

GOD CHANGED HIS MIND = GOD’S UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Jonah 4:11; corresponds with Eph.1:10, Col.1:20; Rom.5:18; etc. = Universal Salvation!!!

So, we cut the chase Steve b, God’s will is Universal Salvation and God has what it takes to save everyone.

God bless you Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

In addition LatinRight

Re: your equation

Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unitea] all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
+
Col 1: 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
+
Rom 5:18 Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
= universal salvation

That shows God’s desire is that 1 Timothy 2:4 ,

Meaning NO ONE is created by God to go to hell regardless of what they choose. That would be against the desire of God. That would be double predestination, a heresy invented by Calvin.

Cutting to the chase, using 1 Timothy 2:4

For those who might not be familiar with ≠, it means does not equal

God’s desire for man ≠ God forces man to obey Him
God’s desire for man ≠ God removes free will that God gave man
God’s desire for man ≠ God automatically removes all punishment for sin regardless of man’s disposition
God’s desire for man ≠ God removes hell for man regardless of what man chooses and does

If EVERYONE goes to heaven, no qualifications to that, as you say, then why did God say to us directly

#35 ]

the Father and the Son are perfectly one.

*Jn 5:19 the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. *

*Jn 6:37,38 “I have come from heaven not to do my own Will, but the Will of the One who sent Me.” *

*Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. *

*Jn 12:50 whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." *

*Jn 14:10 The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. *

*Jn 14:31 I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. *

*God said *

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?”And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,

 

[LatinRight]

In addition LatinRight

Re: your equation

Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unitea] all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
+
Col 1: 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
+
Rom 5:18 Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
= universal salvation

That shows God’s desire is that 1 Timothy 2:4 ,

Meaning NO ONE is created by God to go to hell regardless of what they choose. That would be against the desire of God. That would be double predestination, a heresy invented by Calvin.

Cutting to the chase, using 1 Timothy 2:4

For those who might not be familiar with ≠, it means does not equal

God’s desire for man ≠ God forces man to obey Him
God’s desire for man ≠ God removes free will that God gave man
God’s desire for man ≠ God automatically removes all punishment for sin regardless of man’s disposition
God’s desire for man ≠ God removes hell for man regardless of what man chooses and does

If EVERYONE goes to heaven, no qualifications to that, as you say, then why did God say to us directly

#35 ]

the Father and the Son are perfectly one.

*Jn 5:19 the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. *

*Jn 6:37,38 “I have come from heaven not to do my own Will, but the Will of the One who sent Me.” *

*Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. *

*Jn 12:50 whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." *

*Jn 14:10 The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. *

*Jn 14:31 I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. *

God bless you Stave b and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I never said everyone will goes to heaven, I believe only those goes to heaven who are predestined to heaven by God which is the Church/Bride of Christ.

The Nations those who are not elected to be parts of the Bride of Christ, will be saved in the Earth and they stay in Earth as it is described in Ez.36:26-28.

Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Did you Steve notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all the nations as well.

PLEASE TICK OUT YOUR ANSWERS – If your answer is no please give your reasons of your rejection.

God’s will is that everyone saved (2 Pet.3:8-9; 1 Tim.2:4) which is Universal Salvation.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

God equally gives everyone the chance to have Everlasting Life as His children.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

God predestines no one to hell, neither positively nor negatively.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

God equally gives everyone His grace the gift of Initial Justification and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

**Thank you for your answers in advance.

Of course the answers of every readers of the CAF are more than welcome as well.**

God bless you Stave b and God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

God bless you Steve b and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I never said everyone will goes to heaven, I believe only those goes to heaven who are predestined to heaven by God which is the Church/Bride of Christ.

what you say is not how you argue.
#36

You say only the elect are going to heaven, but don’t stop there. Then you go on to argue everyone else is ultimately also saved,
therefore, ultimately you argue, everyone is saved and no one goes to hell.

THAT is NOT what Jesus taught, #35 ]

nor is it Church teaching

LatinRight:

The Nations those who are not elected to be parts of the Bride of Christ, will be saved in the Earth and they stay in Earth as it is described in Ez.36:26-28.

Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Did you Steve notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all the nations as well.

you haven’t answered this
** #35 ] **

LatinRight:

PLEASE TICK OUT YOUR ANSWERS – If your answer is no please give your reasons of your rejection.

God’s will is that everyone saved (2 Pet.3:8-9; 1 Tim.2:4) which is Universal Salvation.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

That’s already been answered. God’s desire is for everyone to be saved. That doesn’t mean everyone will be saved. ** #35 ] **

LatinRight:

God equally gives everyone the chance to have Everlasting Life as His children.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

I’ve already given you that answer. It doesn’t mean everyone responds appropriately. ** #35 ] **

LatinRight:

God predestines no one to hell, neither positively nor negatively.

] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

I’ve already given you that answer

1037

LatinRight:

God equally gives everyone His grace -]the gift of Initial Justification and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.
/-]
] Yes I believe it.
] No I don’t believe it.

If God gives the gift of final perseverance to everyone, then why would Jesus make the following condition

Jesus said
Mt 10:22 he who endures to the end will be saved.

Why would Jesus say ** #35 ] **

Why would Paul say
1 Corinthians 9:27
27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified ἀδόκιμος ]

See that word disqualified? open the link

Definition:
"unapproved, i.e. Rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally) – castaway, rejected, reprobate. "

Is Paul not among the elect? Why would he warn OR worry about persevering till the end and then be disqualified if it wasn’t possible to fail?

Bottom line,Jesus knows, and has given us a heads up in advance. So no one speculates nor reads back into scripture what they want to read. ** #35 ]

When I gave you the following to read, did you read it? ALL OF IT?
**
ewtn.com/v/experts/showme…?number=620118

Also
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/are-you-saved-if-only

 

[ericc]

Traditionally Universalism is that all humanity regardless of faith or non-faith or moral character will be saved. No one will go to hell permanently.

Thanks, Fred

Hi Fred,

Unfortunately Universalism if true makes Jesus a liar. Scripture says:

Mat 25:41 " eternal fire"
Mat 25:46 " they will go away into eternal punishment…"
2 The 1:9 “suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord”
Hebrews 6:2 “eternal judgement”

An empty hell makes Jesus a liar as it won’t be eternal.

Notwithstanding the above, heaven is within reach of anyone, any religion if they are in good standing with God. Even if they do not know (enough) about Him, God wills all to be saved and sufficient grace will be given. The Church says invincible ignorance is a viable route.

 

[steve-b]

Hello,

“You are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted! If that happens to us, we experience grace.”

does that mean, don’t educate, correct, admonish anyone who is doing things wrongly?

Zen:

I would suggest that we can accept God’s grace without doctrinal labels and even in theological error. The pious Muslim or Jew accepts and receives God’s grace fully as a beloved child of God without ever using the name of Jesus in a Christian context. They don’t need to, they are accepted by God. The proof is this is taking to such a person and their faith and the presence of God is clearly reflected in their life.

Does that mean, one doesn’t need to do things Jesus way, and the Church he established, one can do things their way and there is no difference, the outcome is the same?

Zen:

I have some additional arguments for universalism but I figured this would be a good place to start.

I do have a technical theological question too:
Traditionally Universalism is that all humanity regardless of faith or non-faith or moral character will be saved. No one will go to hell permanently.

Why then one could ask, does He build His Church on Peter and those in union with Peter?
Why is there so much instruction on what to do and NOT to do or else?

What is the or else there for?

Zen:

What would the view be that all people of good faith in God and moral character across faiths are saved or have equal access to salvation be called? It’s not really a syncretism since I’m not saying if their doctrines are true, only their devotion and divine favor.

Thanks, Fred

I think it could be called someone’s imagination. Why would Jesus pray, “that all be perfectly one” if all kinds of wrong beliefs are accepted too?

Jn 17
20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me. 26 I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”