Tim Tebow's dad wants to convert Catholics in the Philippines?

[CopticChristian]

Born Again Christian son of an evangelist who works in the Philippines who openly proclaims his faith more then most. He who won the Heisman Trophy as the best collegiate football player and lead his school to the national championship while wearing John 3:13 on his face causing the NCAA to change their rules so future players can not do the same. However the football experts declared that while he was a great college player there was no way he would be able to play in the NFL.

When he finally got a chance to play in the NFL he lead his team to a string of last minute victories causing some to wonder maybe God did lend a hand to a faithful servant to make a point to others, If national polls are correct maybe about 40% of the US think maybe God did step in, or at least his faith gave Tebow the confidence to step forward and take a leap where other quarterbacks back off fearing possible injury.

Even if the NFL scouts and experts are correct and another classic quarterback emerges to replace him next year he is in a very exclusive club of players who have lead a NFL team to a playoff game victory

Maybe you are on to something. Tim has not made it yet and he has lots of time…so the measure of success will certainly be something to watch…I probably should consider being Mormon…since Steve Young has already succeeded…check his stats…

pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

 

[ltwin]

YES!! YES!! Someone who gets it!! :clapping:
Evangelicals can be just as cultural or nominal as Catholics. Having a “born again” experience, believing in the Bible, waving your hands in the air during emotional music does not mean they are somehow superior or are more “complete” than Catholics.

Yes. Evangelicals recognize this. We are constantly told that being a member of a church does not make you a Christian.

The difference beig that the elders of an Evangelic Church would not call the cultural Holy Roller a Christian even if he was baptised and attends services religiously. Being called Christian is reserved to those who truly believe and are willing to say they truly believe. It is why the call goes out near the end of many if not most services even if no stranger is among the congregation

Yes, I perfectly agree. This is the misunderstanding. Catholics consider infants baptized in the Catholic Church as Catholics and Christians even if their subsequent affiliation with their faith is nominal, while evangelicals do not consider the category of “cultural” or nominal Christians as Christians.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes. Evangelicals recognize this. We are constantly told that being a member of a church does not make you a Christian.

Yes, I perfectly agree. This is the misunderstanding. Catholics consider infants baptized in the Catholic Church as Catholics and Christians even if their subsequent affiliation with their faith is nominal, while **evangelicals do not consider **the category of “cultural” or nominal Christians as Christians.

It is important to be constantly told something that is new and novel in consideration that Evangelical teaching is not reached the 2000 year mark…This will have to be assessed sometime in 4012.

Evangelical consideration has to be taken into account as it pertains to the new teaching and has to be understood in light of from whence it came.

This is good to know…

 

[Filii_Dei]

This will be a lengthy reply. Please bear with me.

Prove it? How many countless threads have there been to call Protestants to convert Catholicism? Or how many countless threads have there been here insulting Protestant intelligence concerning how “vastly superior” the Roman Catholic Church is?

You are confusing Catholics with the Catholic Church. There have been many threads on the internet calling for the Church to ordain female priests, does that mean the Catholic Church is pushing for female priests? If a Catholic wishes to insult non-Catholics, or a non-Catholic wishes to mock Catholics, that’s none of my concern. I am simply giving the position of the Catholic Church. If I were to defend every Catholic, I would be here for ages.

Likewise, Bob Tebow is not Evangelicalism/Protestantism, and I have never said that he represented them. Perhaps you might like to do the same.

What about Catholic outreach programs like the “Catholics Come Home” - designed not only to attract lapsed Catholics but targeting also Protestant Christians? Don’t act like it doesn’t exist. Whatever the case may be with ecumenicism, there have been consistent attempts by the Catholic Church to expand its ranks by targeting non-Catholics.

I have never said they did not. However, we cannot ignore the fact that the Church has moving towards working in dialogue with churches instead of telling them that they are not Christians. In addition, “Catholics Come Home” is primarily targeted at lapsed Catholics (I’m sure you’re not saying that the Catholic Church should not be allowed to reach out to its lapsed members?) and, like all programs, simply keeps an open door for interested non-Catholics. It does not actively enter Protestant communities and preach that they are not Christians. In contrast, what does Bob Tebow do? (Hint: Read the OP)

catholicnewsagency.com/news/head_of_russian_orthodox_church_criticizes_vatican_for_proselytizing/
interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=7942
How far in the past, exactly?

Did you read beyond the title?

In the first article, the Russian archbishop liberally uses the term to lament the possible elevation of the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church, a Byzantine-rite sui iuris Church, from an archepiscopate to a patriarchate. To simplify matters, this is about his opposition to the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church, which he sees as a political threat to the Ukranian Orthodox Church, which submits to the Patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church. Nothing in the article talks about converting Orthodox to Catholics, so it is utterly irrelevant.

The second article comes from a desperate minority of Orthodox Christians lashing out in the midst of a property dispute between the Orthodox and Catholic communities. Again, there is nothing in the article that shows the Catholics have been trying to convert Orthodox. In fact, the group is simply alleging a conspiracy to convert Orthodox to Catholics, meaning that they are simply making conjecture and have no evidence of it. It does not mean that there actually is proselytism going on. If I were to make a statement saying that there was a NWO conspiracy, does that mean that there is actually a NWO?

Catholics believe, essentially, the same thing as Tim Tebow’s father, only that they say it less explicitly (most of the time). Catholic doctrine states that salvation is truly found only within the Catholic Church, and that Christians outside of Communion with Rome are in huge doubt, even though they share many elements of the faith. Hence extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yes, there are other circumstances, but essentially, this phrase means that those outside the Roman Catholic Church are in severe spiritual danger.

Now you’re putting even more words in my mouth again. When will this ever end?

I have never once commented on the spiritual status of non-Catholics. As I have warned before, that is for another thread. I was strictly criticizing Bob Tebow’s attitude that Catholics are non-Christians. It was not - and never was - about whether non-Catholics or Bob Tebow could be saved. We’re departing from the topic, and I am sure it is not in either of our interests for this discussion to degenerate into a Protestant vs Catholic bashfest.

However, if it might help, I shall answer your statement regarding this.

The doctrine you quoted has been taken out of context. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, meaning “there is no salvation out of the church”, is a doctrine held by both the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, yet according to your interpretation it would mean that only the Orthodox or the Catholic Church is can be saved. However, neither says the other is beyond salvation. Why is this so?

The ‘church’ as referred to in the doctrine refers to the body of believing, practising Christians. It is the magisterium’s position that this Christian Church subsistit in the Catholic Church (ref. Catechism 816, 820, 830), meaning that it recognises that non-Catholics can still obtain salvation. While there is even more to this doctrine, I hope this suffices for now.

 

[JustaServant]

Prove it? How many countless threads have there been to call Protestants to convert to Catholicism?

Wow, a Catholic forum promoting Catholicism.
Imagine that.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes. Evangelicals recognize this. We are constantly told that being a member of a church does not make you a Christian.

Yes, I perfectly agree. This is the misunderstanding. Catholics consider infants baptized in the Catholic Church as Catholics and Christians even if their subsequent affiliation with their faith is nominal, while evangelicals do not consider the category of “cultural” or nominal Christians as Christians.

Did you know that to be a Jew you had to be born into Judaism and if your mother was not Jewish then you were not a Jew?

If your mother was not Jewish to become a Jew you had to convert and then get Circumcised…once Circumcised you were a Jew.

Is there ever a time that you can recall in reading the OT that a Jew stopped being a Jew?

To become a Christian you were either born into it and baptized or had to convert and then be baptized. Is there ever a time that you stop being what you were?

Yes you can reject that from where you came…but that is between you and God…as I recall “me and Jesus”…why the corporate interest?

Makes you wonder does it not…

 

[Sarabande]

Sadly it is happening. I am very concerned. I’m Filipino, and most people I know are turning up Evangelical. Evangelicals are very aggressive in the Philippines, especially among college and young professional crowd by integrating the “good times” the kids want to be doing all the time with their preaching.

I think you may be right. I’m half Filipina and although my mother’s generation is still fairly devout, I am seeing in my younger cousins’ more of a watering down of their faith. In my generation (late 20s/early 30s) I have seen at least in the US more of an influence of just not being interested in the Church anymore. Many have become more “Americanized” since we were either born here or immigrated here as young children.

Although I do know many non-practicing Filipino Catholics (again usually the younger generations who are living here in the States… I can’t speak for those living in the Philippines) I only know a small handful of non-Catholic Filipinos. One, who is in her 70s, was raised Presbyterian and was basically part of the small percentage of Protestants living there prior to this new evangelization. That said, her father was originally Catholic, but converted so that he could get married to her mother. She does have many relatives who are Catholic, though, due to her father’s side of the family.

Another family I know who are Protestants, I believe converted from Catholicism. I don’t talk about faith with them too much as I’m not that close to them, but they do seem devout, since they go back to the Philippines once in the while for mission trips… basically to convert other Catholics into Protestants.

I think the Church does need to do something, especially with young Filipino Catholics in the States. They are being influenced by everything around them just as much as young non-Filipino Catholics. The Filipino culture is still there within our families and community, but it would be sad to see them become just culturally Filipino-Catholic rather than truly strong in their faith and spirituality.

 

[ltwin]

Did you know that to be a Jew you had to be born into Judaism and if your mother was not Jewish then you were not a Jew?

If your mother was not Jewish to become a Jew you had to convert and then get Circumcised…once Circumcised you were a Jew.

Is there ever a time that you can recall in reading the OT that a Jew stopped being a Jew?

To become a Christian you were either born into it and baptized or had to convert and then be baptized. Is there ever a time that you stop being what you were?

Yes you can reject that from where you came…but that is between you and God…as I recall “me and Jesus”…why the corporate interest?

Makes you wonder does it not…

Yeah today its determined matrilinealy. At other times, Jews judged Jewishness by patrinlineal descent. What exactly is your point?

Sorry, you cannot be born a Christian. You must be born again. Even if you support infant baptism, you can’t say so and so was from his mother’s womb a Christian.\

As to your question, I have never not been a Christian since I gave my heart to Jesus. But, I know people personally who have lost their faith. They may still identify as Christian, but they are not fooling themselves or anyone else. When it happened, I can’t be the judge of that. How it happened, I can’t be the judge either. But there is no denying that over a period of time they experienced a profound change in their lives that doesn’t include God. It’s a sad thing.

The truth is, Christians are not an ethnic group. We have been given a most tremendous gift, but that gift can be rejected. There isn’t a point in time that you can point to. But when it happens you realize it. And you pray that they will wake up one day and realize that even though they rejected Christ, he never rejected them.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yeah today its determined matrilinealy. At other times, Jews judged Jewishness by patrinlineal descent. What exactly is your point?

Sorry, you cannot be born a Christian. You must be born again. Even if you support infant baptism, you can’t say so and so was from his mother’s womb a Christian.

To be a Jew you had to be born of a Jewish woman. Point to me when Patriarchy determined Jewishness.

You can be born into a Christian family and be baptized as a baby…hence born again…as it has been for 2000 years…Yes, I can say so.

 

[ltwin]

To be a Jew you had to be born of a Jewish woman. Point to me when Patriarchy determined Jewishness.

You can be born into a Christian family and be baptized as a baby…hence born again…as it has been for 2000 years…Yes, I can say so.

The shift occurred sometime after the late second temple period. See The beginnings of Jewishness: boundaries, varieties, uncertainties by Shaye J. D. Cohen. Pages 305-306 for starters.

But you are still born a non-Christian!

 

[CopticChristian]

The shift occurred sometime after the late second temple period. See The beginnings of Jewishness: boundaries, varieties, uncertainties by Shaye J. D. Cohen. Pages 305-306 for starters.

But you are still born a non-Christian!

pages 305 & 306 are not able to be viewed…provide the written evidence in post please.

 

[TimothyH]

If your mother was not Jewish to become a Jew you had to convert and then get Circumcised…once Circumcised you were a Jew.

Is there ever a time that you can recall in reading the OT that a Jew stopped being a Jew?

Actually yes. That is actually what the whole of both 1 and 2 Maccabees is about.

Abpout 150 years before Christ, Alexander the Great tried to Hellenize the world. He conquered the entire known world and tried to introduce Greek culture, language, religion, philosophy and way of life into the lands he conquered. But he was so impressed with what he saw in Jerusalem that he let the Jews have their own religion, culture and a measure of self government. When Alexander the Great died however, his kingdom was divided by twelve governors, and the governor of Judea, Antiochus Epiphanes, began Hellenizing Israel.

There sprang from these a sinful offshoot, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus, once a hostage at Rome. He became king in the year one hundred and thirty-seven of the kingdom of the Greeks. In those days there appeared in Israel men who were breakers of the law, and they seduced many people, saying: “Let us go and make an alliance with the Gentiles all around us; since we separated from them, many evils have come upon us.” The proposal was agreeable; some from among the people promptly went to the king, and he authorized them to introduce the way of living of the Gentiles. Thereupon they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem according to the Gentile custom. They covered over the mark of their circumcision and abandoned the holy covenant; they allied themselves with the Gentiles and sold themselves to wrongdoing. (1 Macabees 1:10-15)

The gymnasium was an abomination because men trained there naked. The mark of their circumcision, or lack therof, would have been clearly visible to all. And the Jews bought into Greek culture, they “Hellenized” themselves, abandoning their Jewish roots and identities to the point where many had their circumcision surgically reversed!!!

So the answer is yes, there is a time when a Jew stopped being a Jew, even to the point of “Covering over the mark of their circumcision”, which was really just a sign of their abandonment of the covenant. In fact, if we look at covenant faithfulness as a measure of one’s Jewish identity, we could say that Jews abandoning their way of life and identity as Gods chosen son is the entire story of the Old Tesament. Remember that Jews are covenant people. To a Jew it is all about the covenant.

At the time of Abraham, God dwelled in each house and each head of the houshold was his own priest/king/ruler but the people lost that priveledge when they worshipped the calf at Sinai and God instituted the Levitical priesthood as a result. God was their king, ruling in their midst but the Israelites wanted to be like the other nations and they demanded a temporal king.

Samuel was displeased when they said, “Give us a king to rule us.” But he prayed to the LORD. The LORD said: Listen to whatever the people say. You are not the one they are rejecting. They are rejecting me as their king. They are acting toward you just as they have acted from the day I brought them up from Egypt to this very day, deserting me to serve other gods. (1 Samuel 8:6-8)

Over and over, Israel rejected their identity as Jews chosen by God to be his special possession, and over and over God left them to their own ways and then rescued them when they got into trouble.

And that’s actually the entire story of the Old Testament, and explicit in the first chapter of 1 Macabees, that of Jews not trusing God and so rejecting their status as Jews, abdicating their identity and taking on the identity of others.

-Tim-

 

[traillius]

Yeah today its determined matrilinealy. At other times, Jews judged Jewishness by patrinlineal descent. What exactly is your point?

Sorry, you cannot be born a Christian. You must be born again. Even if you support infant baptism, you can’t say so and so was from his mother’s womb a Christian.\

As to your question, I have never not been a Christian since I gave my heart to Jesus. But, I know people personally who have lost their faith. They may still identify as Christian, but they are not fooling themselves or anyone else. When it happened, I can’t be the judge of that. How it happened, I can’t be the judge either. But there is no denying that over a period of time they experienced a profound change in their lives that doesn’t include God. It’s a sad thing.

The truth is, Christians are not an ethnic group. We have been given a most tremendous gift, but that gift can be rejected. There isn’t a point in time that you can point to. But when it happens you realize it. And you pray that they will wake up one day and realize that even though they rejected Christ, he never rejected them.

then, two things,

1. will tim tebow’s dad refer all catholics back to their parish priests, since he can lead them back to proper catholic christian worship?
2. will TT’s D also advocate for evangelicals going to countries with a protestant/evangelical majority, or at least where the majority of christians are protestant/evangelical, and spreading the gospel, where I am sure fallen away p/e cultural christians will ‘not have heard the gospel,’ and thus encourage them to go to their church, or the closest church of any christian sect ( including, if applicable RCC, EO, or other catholic type denom. )

I await answers with baited breath.

 

[ltwin]

pages 305 & 306 are not able to be viewed…provide the written evidence in post please.

I don’t have time to really. However, I will quote one sentence from page 273, “The matrilineal principle is first attested in the Mishnah.” Also think about it. The children of kings Soloman and David by foreign wives, according to matrilinial, would not be Jewish/Israelite. Makes not sense.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sarabande makes the point…once they become Protestant and reject Catholicism, there is no more closeness and common prayer as a family.

You break faith from the universal Catholic Church…and in the name of Christ…you break up Christian families?..Catholics are Christian…

Christ prayed we would be one.

It is Protestantism that sanctioned divorce.

And from there, the downward slide of Christian unity of one Body. When families can no longer prayer together…and in depth…because of the break…the society as a whole suffers…and Christianity itself looses its witness.

 

[ltwin]

then, two things,

1. will tim tebow’s dad refer all catholics back to their parish priests, since he can lead them back to proper catholic christian worship?
2. will TT’s D also advocate for evangelicals going to countries with a protestant/evangelical majority, or at least where the majority of christians are protestant/evangelical, and spreading the gospel, where I am sure fallen away p/e cultural christians will ‘not have heard the gospel,’ and thus encourage them to go to their church, or the closest church of any christian sect ( including, if applicable RCC, EO, or other catholic type denom. )

I await answers with baited breath.

I don’t answer for Tim Tebow’s dad. And I hesitate to explain my own reasoning since I’ve already recieved an infraction on this thread for “contempt for Catholicism.” So, I’ll avoid question number 1 and answer question number 2 from my perspective (since I don’t read Tim Tebow’s dad’s mind ).

There are African protestants already coming to America to evangelize this heathen nation (in which still the majority of people identify as Christian). The missionary impulse within Protestantism goes both ways now as the colonial mindset has been shaken off, its not a simple Western to third world or Western Protestant to third world Catholic. It’s global south Protestant missionaries coming to the evangelical American South to reach the heathen white people. Africans already see the USA and Europe as mission fields.

The church in America (all churches) face serious problems with retaining members, and even those who are growing are growing by small percentages. Many of the members only attend on Christmas, Easter, and life cycle events. Why would foreign missionaries encourage newly converted Christians to return to the churches which are producing cultural Christians and anemic participation in the first place? Much easier to plant churches which carry some vitality and do not suffer from the complacency that overwhelms so much of American Christianity.

 

[KathleenGee]

There are already African Catholic priests and sisters coming to our country. It is to some degree the failure of Christian leaders to aid in off setting the tremendous power of secular society that is affecting our young…

As Sarabande said, it is hard for Catholic Filipinos in America to keep their faith just as other young Catholics do.

However, a prelate in Rome, the Vatican, said he is seeing the most enthusiastic and dedicated Catholic young believers coming out of the good ol ’ USA.

There is a great work to be done with fundamentalists who have been indoctrinated to be anti-Catholic, based on emotions and outward appearances of our faith…affecting them to the point that they don’t want to even learn anything about Catholicism and its truths.

It is likewise a real grace to see Catholic converts who have come to the fullness of faith through study and reflection and the search for truth.

For me, what I see in Protestant movements is basically a lack of forgiveness towards the Catholic clergy for what happened prior to the Reformation, accepting the reality of being part of a fractured faith based on divorce from Mother Church, and a refusal to go beyond and work for common faith and unity, as well as not trusting in Christ that He can work through sinful man made of clay. This is the Incarnation…the Word Made Flesh, and Christ appointing Peter as head of His church…and Peter’s successors.

Grace can work through the sacrament of Holy Orders in spite of the condition of the individual priest. He can say Mass and provide us the Eucharist and absolution for sin in the person of Christ.

We can lose the Vatican buildings, our churches, and cathedrals, but the faith continues on in the heart and soul of every believer.

 

[ltwin]

Converted from a sinful life to a life that is transformed by the grace of Christ?

I am not posing a false dilemma at all. I am advocating that people be converted by all means possible by Catholics, by Protestants, and by any of segment of Christianity. I certainly don’t advocate sheep stealing. I believe you should bloom where God planted you until he tells you to go somewhere else. However, I don’t consider non-practicing Catholics to belong to the Catholic Church, just as I don’t consider non-practicing Pentecostals to belong to the Pentecostal Church. If Pentecostalism has failed to reach them, and they find Christ in the Catholic Church or the Baptist Church or the Methodist Church then I wish only the best for them, and I’m glad that they were able to understand and grasp hold of the faith, even if it wasn’t in the church of their upbringing. I’m just glad that they’ve found Jesus.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think you may be right. I’m half Filipina and although my mother’s generation is still fairly devout, I am seeing in my younger cousins’ more of a watering down of their faith. In my generation (late 20s/early 30s) I have seen at least in the US more of an influence of just not being interested in the Church anymore. Many have become more “Americanized” since we were either born here or immigrated here as young children.

Although I do know many non-practicing Filipino Catholics (again usually the younger generations who are living here in the States… I can’t speak for those living in the Philippines) I only know a small handful of non-Catholic Filipinos. One, who is in her 70s, was raised Presbyterian and was basically part of the small percentage of Protestants living there prior to this new evangelization. That said, her father was originally Catholic, but converted so that he could get married to her mother. She does have many relatives who are Catholic, though, due to her father’s side of the family.

Another family I know who are Protestants, I believe converted from Catholicism. I don’t talk about faith with them too much as I’m not that close to them, but they do seem devout, since they go back to the Philippines once in the while for mission trips… basically to convert other Catholics into Protestants.

I think the Church does need to do something, especially with young Filipino Catholics in the States. They are being influenced by everything around them just as much as young non-Filipino Catholics. The Filipino culture is still there within our families and community, but it would be sad to see them become just culturally Filipino-Catholic rather than truly strong in their faith and spirituality.

I think its not only in the Philippines, but many of these Protestant Churches have heavy pushes on “evangelizing” predominantly Catholic countries. Include Latin America. It really cuts their work in half because they don’t need to tell people of a God they do not know. Everyone knows Jesus, everyone knows the Bible. So easy for them to proselytize Catholics.

 

[ltwin]

What I am saying is that many people who are “officially” in a church many times have already left that church in all but name.

What can you provide that cannot be found within the Catholic Church?

I can provide them with nothing. The Lord works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.

Noted, but you are non-Catholic and your opinions on the matter do not reflect Catholic teaching.

I am aware that neither I nor my opinions are Catholic (thanks for the reminder). I respect the opinion though, even though as a non-Catholic I do not share it. I fully respect the fact that Catholics are insulted and offended when it seems like (and may very well be in many cases) Protestants steal sheep. I get it. But conversations like this make painfully aware that whereas the Catholic Church has a birthright and territorial view of who its sheep are, Protestants operate under a whole different set of assumptions.