Time for a New Spiritual (not Religious) Order?

[grannymh]

I read this mediation and thought it was appropriate to this thread as Fr Rohr speaks about Rebuilding Christianity “From the Bottom Up”
I don’t know if this means destroying the Church as some people think it would, it would obviously cause some kind of break, because what progressive thinking does is change the mind set.

Have read, please share your thought :

Contemplation Gives Power to the People

Thursday, July 13, 2017

If religious teachers told their parishioners about contemplation, where individuals can experience the mercy of God for themselves, they would not be so dependent upon the clergy. Although this codependency is not engineered maliciously, it does create job security. We all have a hard time doing things that essentially work ourselves out of a job or make ourselves unnecessary. Sin management does hold the flock together, but soon we realize that there is little maturity, or even love, in a flock that is glued together in this way.

Response.

Everyone can always experience the mercy of God. It is called turning to God in humble repentant prayer.

Job security as in the market place? The Catholic Sacrament of Holy Orders confers an indelible spiritual character. This character imprinted by ordination is forever. (CCC 1582-1583) Look around at the world. The Catholic priest will never be out of a job.

My sincere apology. I do have a silly sense of humor when reading about “sin management.” I imagine the office of a priest who does not have filing skills. The floor is cluttered with all kinds of sins which refuse to be managed.

 

[grannymh]

I read this mediation and thought it was appropriate to this thread as Fr Rohr speaks about Rebuilding Christianity “From the Bottom Up”
I don’t know if this means destroying the Church as some people think it would, it would obviously cause some kind of break, because what progressive thinking does is change the mind set.

The Catholic Church cannot be Catholic when someone rebuilds its basic fundamental teachings from the bottom up according to personal preference.

 

[grannymh]

I read this mediation and thought it was appropriate to this thread as Fr Rohr speaks about Rebuilding Christianity “From the Bottom Up”
I don’t know if this means destroying the Church as some people think it would, it would obviously cause some kind of break, because what progressive thinking does is change the mind set.

Have read, please share your thought :

Contemplation Gives Power to the People

Thursday, July 13, 2017

Faithfulness to contemplative practice can achieve the same radical inner renewal as sacraments and formal initiation rites.

The above explanation indicates that the intention of the author is to remove Jesus Christ and especially His difficult Sacraments from the Catholic Church. Without Jesus Christ, what happens to the readers of his meditations?

 

[grannymh]

The above explanation indicates that the intention of the author is to remove Jesus Christ and especially His difficult Sacraments from the Catholic Church. Without Jesus Christ, what happens to the readers of his meditations?

Before someone gets excited (in my neighborhood there is some interesting slang)
please please get your eyes going to the exact words above. I put the key words in bold.
"The above explanation indicates that the intention of the author is to **remove **Jesus Christ and especially His difficult Sacraments from the Catholic Church.

Please please note that the meditation’s author, listed as a Notable Progressive Christian by Wikipedia, loves Jesus. He wants everyone to love Jesus and follow Jesus. But, (think about this carefully) he does not want the full teachings of Jesus as Head of the Catholic Church. That is why there is the call to rebuild Christianity so that the full Divinity of Jesus can be removed in the sense that His teachings can be tampered according to what the author considers important.

“Could meditation or contemplative prayer be the very thing that has the power to both democratize and mature Christianity?”
.

 

[simpleas]

The Catholic Church cannot be Catholic when someone rebuilds its basic fundamental teachings from the bottom up according to personal preference.

I don’t think it is personal preference, it seems like a renewed way of teaching and looking at things…

 

[simpleas]

The above explanation indicates that the intention of the author is to remove Jesus Christ and especially His difficult Sacraments from the Catholic Church. Without Jesus Christ, what happens to the readers of his meditations?

I read as adding to the practise of faith rather than trying to take away.

 

[simpleas]

Before someone gets excited (in my neighborhood there is some interesting slang)
please please get your eyes going to the exact words above. I put the key words in bold.
"The above explanation indicates that the intention of the author is to **remove **Jesus Christ and especially His difficult Sacraments from the Catholic Church.

Please please note that the meditation’s author, listed as a Notable Progressive Christian by Wikipedia, loves Jesus. He wants everyone to love Jesus and follow Jesus. But, (think about this carefully) he does not want the full teachings of Jesus as Head of the Catholic Church. That is why there is the call to rebuild Christianity so that the full Divinity of Jesus can be removed in the sense that His teachings can be tampered according to what the author considers important.

“Could meditation or contemplative prayer be the very thing that has the power to both democratize and mature Christianity?”
.

So as not to make this thread into meditations by Fr R I’ll just quote the start of todays thread :

The terms belief and faith are often used synonymously. Yet they are very different. As David Benner says, “Belief is conviction of the trustworthiness of a proposition. . . . Faith, on the other hand, can never be reduced to beliefs or thoughts. . . . Beliefs are often simply objects of attachment that provide a misleading sense of certainty.” [1] Faith welcomes unknowing and mystery. Unfortunately, Christianity has settled for dogma, rituals, and tribal belonging, losing sight of the transformative way of faith.
Over the next two days I’d like you to reflect on my friend Brian McLaren’s words. He offers challenging questions that can help us reframe and rebuild our spirituality from the bottom up:

Most all religions have a system of belief, I don’t know if some people are trying to get rid of sacraments, I think they aren’t, I think they are trying to teach people to reflect on life, be more inclusive of people, live most Christ like. It almost seems that the churches sacraments and Christ’s teachings are two very different things…

This is way above my pay grade really.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t think it is personal preference, it seems like a renewed way of teaching and looking at things…

A specific “renewed way of teaching and looking at things” is his personal preference. The fact is that his personal preference is shared by many other people .

 

[grannymh]

So as not to make this thread into meditations by Fr R I’ll just quote the start of todays thread :

The terms belief and faith are often used synonymously. Yet they are very different. As David Benner says, “Belief is conviction of the trustworthiness of a proposition. . . . Faith, on the other hand, can never be reduced to beliefs or thoughts. . . . Beliefs are often simply objects of attachment that provide a misleading sense of certainty.” [1] Faith welcomes unknowing and mystery. Unfortunately, Christianity has settled for dogma, rituals, and tribal belonging, losing sight of the transformative way of faith.
Over the next two days I’d like you to reflect on my friend Brian McLaren’s words. He offers challenging questions that can help us reframe and rebuild our spirituality from the bottom up:

I assume that the “Most all religions have a system of belief …” are your comments. If not, correct where the quoted thread ends.

Most all religions have a system of belief, I don’t know if some people are trying to get rid of sacraments, I think they aren’t, I think they are trying to teach people to reflect on life, be more inclusive of people, live most Christ like. It almost seems that the churches sacraments and Christ’s teachings are two very different things…

This is way above my pay grade really.

Apparently, we now have a new non-Catholic religion according to the above remarks
about belief and faith and this sentence “Unfortunately, Christianity has settled for dogma, rituals, and tribal belonging, losing sight of the transformative way of faith.”

Until we get an official name shall we call it Brian’s Church?

 

[simpleas]

A specific “renewed way of teaching and looking at things” is his personal preference. The fact is that his personal preference is shared by many other people .

I don’t think there is anything bad in something’s that are suggested, most seem progressive but not really, if it’s centred on what Jesus did and said then it’s hardly new.

Everyone has an opinion, a different way of looking at things, like the saying, we don’t leave our brain’s at the door of the church when we enter, thinking continues inside the church too.

Thanks.

 

[simpleas]

I assume that the “Most all religions have a system of belief …” are your comments. If not, correct where the quoted thread ends.

Apparently, we now have a new non-Catholic religion according to the above remarks
about belief and faith and this sentence “Unfortunately, Christianity has settled for dogma, rituals, and tribal belonging, losing sight of the transformative way of faith.”

Until we get an official name shall we call it Brian’s Church?

Now your just making fun of this topic…

I did laugh at that though…

 

[grannymh]

I don’t think there is anything bad in something’s that are suggested, most seem progressive but not really, if it’s centred on what Jesus did and said then it’s hardly new.

Everyone has an opinion, a different way of looking at things, like the saying, we don’t leave our brain’s at the door of the church when we enter, thinking continues inside the church too.

Thanks.

Not leaving one’s brain at the door is a great ad for dumping some bit of Catholicism because everyone has an opinion…

 

[grannymh]

What Progressive Christians are doing is changing bits of Catholicism here, bits of Catholicism there, with the result that there is a Non-Catholic new religion trying to repair the old Catholic Church. I chose to call this one Brian’s Church because he is mentioned. Apparently “He offers challenging questions that can help us reframe and rebuild our spirituality from the bottom up”

Pope Pius XII saw what was happening in the 1940’s. I saw what was happening when I read my first adult biography of Jesus Christ. However, I did not learn “official” explanations until many years later.

Previously, in another part of CAF, there were some posts which had the idea that Catholics can receive new kinds of revelation–whatever works for them. At least that was my impression and obviously I could be wrong. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

 

[simpleas]

Not leaving one’s brain at the door is a great ad for dumping some bit of Catholicism because everyone has an opinion…

In your opinion…

Seriously though, reading that helps mature people to the level of Jesus’ teaching has got to be a good thing I think.

I’m not sure how people really thought about some of the sacraments in the church years ago, we know we can’t have one without the other, but in regards to confession that is mentioned in the meditation, if a person is mature enough to know they have sinned, asking God for forgiveness with an act of contrition between them self and God, this doesn’t mean confession with a priest is not needed, but where there is growth and maturity a person may decide they are capable of confessing alone with God.

Has this got something to do with a change in the times we live?

Are people more independent now than they were say 100 years ago, it seems most people aren’t as reliant on the church as they may have been.

 

[grannymh]

From post 31. Interesting Progressive Christian thought is in bold.
“…if a person is mature enough to know they have sinned, asking God for forgiveness with an act of contrition between them self and God, this doesn’t mean confession with a priest is not needed,** but where there is growth and maturity a person may decide they are capable of confessing alone with God**.”

In the real Catholic Church, there is difference between Venial Sin and the State of Mortal Sin. Mortal Sin is “A grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner…” (CCC Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889)

The people who still accept the teachings in the first three valuable chapters of Sacred Scripture understand Genesis 1: 27 and Genesis 2: 15-17 and Genesis 3: 11 and Genesis 3: 15. This “understanding” refers to God’s unique gift to humans known as the State of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

The teaching of the real Catholic Church.
Christ’s Sacrament of Penance
The key is the priest’s absolution.

**CCC1480 **Like all the sacraments, Penance is a liturgical action. The elements of the celebration are ordinarily these: a greeting and blessing from the priest, reading the word of God to illuminate the conscience and elicit contrition, and an exhortation to repentance; the confession, which acknowledges sins and makes them known to the priest; the imposition and acceptance of a penance; the priest’s absolution; a prayer of thanksgiving and praise and dismissal with the blessing of the priest.

 

[porthos11]

Where I find the words “spiritual”, “not”, and “religious” in that order, it usually means the one talking is neither.

I would put no stock in anything that advocates anything of the “spiritual, not religious” nonsense.

Religion, is in fact, a virtue.

 

[simpleas]

Where I find the words “spiritual”, “not”, and “religious” in that order, it usually means the one talking is neither.

I would put no stock in anything that advocates anything of the “spiritual, not religious” nonsense.

Religion, is in fact, a virtue.

We are spiritual beings, yet it seems we can not be spiritual useless we follow a religion, according to many people.

It’s funny, I never really considered myself spiritual,until reading different material, I may have considered myself a Catholic, but I wouldn’t have been able to explain how I am a spiritual being.

 

[grannymh]

We are spiritual beings, yet it seems we can not be spiritual useless we follow a religion, according to many people.

It’s funny, I never really considered myself spiritual,until reading different material, I may have considered myself a Catholic, but I wouldn’t have been able to explain how I am a spiritual being.

I, also, did not consider myself a spiritual being. Considering the desirable end point of life which is the Beatific Vision, I am very glad I came across the first two sentences in CCC 396 and CCC 1730.

One of the important things I learned when I was in Alaska, is that yes, humans can be spiritual without following a religion. In addition, we can consider the beauty of Alaska as spiritual. We certainly cannot put the beauty in a box and ship it back to the lower 48.

Humans are spiritual because of Genesis 1: 27. We belong in the spiritual world because we have a rational spiritual soul.

 

[simpleas]

From post 31. Interesting Progressive Christian thought is in bold.
“…if a person is mature enough to know they have sinned, asking God for forgiveness with an act of contrition between them self and God, this doesn’t mean confession with a priest is not needed,** but where there is growth and maturity a person may decide they are capable of confessing alone with God**.”

In the real Catholic Church, there is difference between Venial Sin and the State of Mortal Sin. Mortal Sin is “A grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner…” (CCC Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889)

The people who still accept the teachings in the first three valuable chapters of Sacred Scripture understand Genesis 1: 27 and Genesis 2: 15-17 and Genesis 3: 11 and Genesis 3: 15. This “understanding” refers to God’s unique gift to humans known as the State of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

The teaching of the real Catholic Church.
Christ’s Sacrament of Penance
The key is the priest’s absolution.

**CCC1480 **Like all the sacraments, Penance is a liturgical action. The elements of the celebration are ordinarily these: a greeting and blessing from the priest, reading the word of God to illuminate the conscience and elicit contrition, and an exhortation to repentance; the confession, which acknowledges sins and makes them known to the priest; the imposition and acceptance of a penance; the priest’s absolution; a prayer of thanksgiving and praise and dismissal with the blessing of the priest.

I recently read an account from a blogger in his 80’s, he described a much different way of teaching regarding confession and participating in the Eucharist as an 8 year old boy. He was taught by the Jesuits so it most likely would have be taught in a much stricter way, his account basically recalled the worry he had about another child at the school who had drowned and he and his friends hoped the boy had been to confession the saturday before, that they had seen him at communion so he must have, and so he would have avoided hell. He also made sure he went to confession so that he could receive on the sunday morning and not have all his friends notice he didn’t receive.

My point to relaying all that is, I wondered how many children today would have that same sort of fear in their minds, in deed, adults also. I don’t think it’s taught much the same as it would have been back in this gentleman’s time.
In fact the church states one need only confess and receive once a year, I’m not sure what sort of message that gives to people, but I know there isn’t a large queue each weekend for confession, maybe at Easter.
I’ve heard Vatican 2 was initiated in order to bring a change (not doctrines, but maybe the approach to how doctrines are learnt?)
But it seems many who have been taught since the 1960’s do not hold the same views
on discipline as people would have before then.

So the idea of 'rebuilding ’ may appeal to some people, because somewhere along the way something has been lost in devotion to the church.

Sorry for the ramble…

 

[simpleas]

I, also, did not consider myself a spiritual being. Considering the desirable end point of life which is the Beatific Vision, I am very glad I came across the first two sentences in CCC 396 and CCC 1730.

One of the important things I learned when I was in Alaska, is that yes, humans can be spiritual without following a religion. In addition, we can consider the beauty of Alaska as spiritual. We certainly cannot put the beauty in a box and ship it back to the lower 48.

Humans are spiritual because of Genesis 1: 27. We belong in the spiritual world because we have a rational spiritual soul.

I don’t know anything about Alaska, only that it’s cold and isolated. Indeed, many similar places on earth that don’t have a religion are peaceful people. Seems most religious people are the ones with the problems…