Time - for an IQ Test

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The beginning of time and the universe is a myth and superstition.
  1. Time is relative change
  2. Whatever is proposed to have caused time could have no change concerning it because change IS time, thus it must be changeless and timeless and thus “eternal”.
  3. If the cause of time exists and cannot change, then it cannot *become *the cause, but rather has always been the cause.
  4. The cause of time cannot exist without causing time, else it would not be the cause of time.
  5. If the cause of time is present, time is immediately present.
  6. The cause of time had to be eternal and thus what it causes had to be eternal as well.
  7. Time is eternal - it never began.


Now which of those steps was incorrect, illogical, or just something you don’t understand?
 
Now which of those steps was incorrect, illogical, or just something you don’t understand?
Things-I-don’t-understand for $200:
  1. If the cause of time exists and cannot change, then it cannot *become *the cause, but rather has always been the cause.
If one is outside of time then this may be true but if one is inside of time then time would appear to have a beginning.
  1. The cause of time cannot exist without causing time, else it would not be the cause of time.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here; can you rephrase it?
  1. If the cause of time is present, time is immediately present.
Doesn’t this presume that everything exists in the same space and therefore the same time? If you travel at the speed of light your time frame is certainly different from those of us standing (relatively) still. What is time to an object traveling at speed = C?

Ender
 
no such thing as time, just change.

all change is concurrent. order is acheived by cause and effect, not by a reference to our favorite phlogiston, “time”.

K.I.S.S. 😛
 
You left out the correct answer. Time did not exists until man invented the watch. 😉
 
It does not follow that an eternal cause necessarily causes something eternal.
You’ve nailed it. 👍

My body was created by the Eternal God, but last time I checked my body wasn’t eternal. Simply watching my hair turn grey and my “smile lines” grow proves that.

Basic definition of God: God is greater than everything, including Time.

Nothing can exist which is co-equal and co-eternal with God, including Time. If any co-equal or co-eternal thing existed it would in and of itself be another god, and violate the rule that God is greater than everything.

God created everything, including Time.

Time can not limit God, because God (who created Time) exists outside of Time.
 
You left out the correct answer. Time did not exists until man invented the watch. 😉
Hey latin_rite, interesting signature you have. I assume, though, the homosexual atheist was ridiculing the inconsistency of the protestant position rather than affirming anything with regard to Fatima (maybe I’m wrong, but it’s probably a safe bet to assume an atheist doesn’t think the virgin Mary or god caused the sun to dance around, and spoke to little Portugese girls in anticipation of the event) 🙂

Still, I smiled when I read it!
 
Time is a reality in the physical universe, as evidenced by the revolution of the planets and the beating of our hearts. Beyond that, I know not.
 
Hey latin_rite, interesting signature you have. I assume, though, the homosexual atheist was ridiculing the inconsistency of the protestant position rather than affirming anything with regard to Fatima (maybe I’m wrong, but it’s probably a safe bet to assume an atheist doesn’t think the virgin Mary or god caused the sun to dance around, and spoke to little Portugese girls in anticipation of the event) 🙂

Still, I smiled when I read it!
O yeah. He was a “devout” atheist if i could use such a term. He doesn;t believe in any of those things. Still he is a good bloke though ;). We use to talk in yahoo chat rooms quiet a bit. And when a debate opened would up between some evangilical and a catholic. He tended to take the catholic side. Even if he was playing devil advocate. I asked him why one day and he said that Catholics didn;t give him as much as a hard time over his sexuality as some protestants did.
 
Did you ever make a flipbook when you were a kid? It is a set of drawings that you view in rapid succession to create a simple sort of animation. Here is an example:
youtube.com/watch?v=LRx5RDCWgq8

Imagine God has created a flipbook universe. The whole history of that universe is contained in a sequence of two or three dozen pictures. God, being eternal, views His creation eternally. Nevertheless, the flipbook universe is not an infinitely long sequence of pictures. It has a beginning and an end.

Determining whether this is a reasonable analogy for our world and our Creator is left as an exercise for the reader.
The beginning of time and the universe is a myth and superstition.
  1. Time is relative change
  2. Whatever is proposed to have caused time could have no change concerning it because change IS time, thus it must be changeless and timeless and thus “eternal”.
  3. If the cause of time exists and cannot change, then it cannot *become *the cause, but rather has always been the cause.
  4. The cause of time cannot exist without causing time, else it would not be the cause of time.
  5. If the cause of time is present, time is immediately present.
  6. The cause of time had to be eternal and thus what it causes had to be eternal as well.
  7. Time is eternal - it never began.


Now which of those steps was incorrect, illogical, or just something you don’t understand?
 
Trying to apply properties of this universe to that which is outside it is pointless, we do not have sufficient knowledge to do so.
 
Did you ever make a flipbook when you were a kid? It is a set of drawings that you view in rapid succession to create a simple sort of animation. Here is an example:
youtube.com/watch?v=LRx5RDCWgq8

Imagine God has created a flipbook universe. The whole history of that universe is contained in a sequence of two or three dozen pictures. God, being eternal, views His creation eternally. Nevertheless, the flipbook universe is not an infinitely long sequence of pictures. It has a beginning and an end.

Determining whether this is a reasonable analogy for our world and our Creator is left as an exercise for the reader.
It may be a reasonable analogy, but whether this is actually the case requires evidence.
 
I don’t understand your initial premise as coming from any authority outside yourself, neither do my sources (kids who are physics majors and professors). #1 in your progression is contradicted by the statements that follow so I do not follow your logic, either.
 
I don’t understand your initial premise as coming from any authority outside yourself, neither do my sources (kids who are physics majors and professors).
discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

physicists call it the Problem of Time. its been a premise from before zeno in philosophy, and its a bare fact metaphysically speaking.

though it is useful to talk of time, its silly to give it ontological existence. you cant possess a thimbleful of time, it doesnt come from anywhere, or go anywhere. time simply doesnt exist. then again, it doesnt need to actually exist for its convention to useful.
 
A few years ago, a noted physicist asked a question online (I forgot his name). He simply asked, “What is time?” After some 20,000 responses, he declared that humanity truly had no hope.

When I heard the story, a laughed a little to myself because I was well aware that online does not really represent humanity well at all. Although I thought that many students would have asked their professors for an answer, I had to also consider that since the 70’s professors had become much like preachers who seldom really answer questions with anything more than obfuscation yielding more questions and more chaos than harmony, after all, to build a new empire, one must first destroy the old one (or so they think). And of course along with chaos, you get insanity.

When I thought to answer the question myself, I immediately thought back to a time when I was mentally constructing the necessities of the universe and had tried to enumerate exactly how many entities are required before time could exist. Such an explanation was beyond the scope of the friend who had asked me the question so I held my tongue for a while, then found myself saying much as our warpspeedpetey keeps saying, “time doesn’t actually exist”.

The physicist had merely asked the question of what time is. I asked a different question. I answered his question followed by an explanation then asked of any understanding of the explanation. The older legal definition of sanity was “knowing right from wrong”. But the ability to understand and act upon understanding is a higher measurement of sanity and rationality.

Time is a measurement, much like length. It is not an entity, but a comparison, as are all measurements. Measurements are not “things”. It is all measurements that are relative, not all things and thus time is relative. But that doesn’t really explain what time is, but rather a mere characteristic of it.

Some time later I got into a debate on what time is. I had stated, “time is the relative measure of change.” A debate ensued as an opponent who wanted to insist that anything and everything that anyone said had to be wrong. After considerable dancing around semantics games, I finally displayed how the new definitions online actually say that same thing except in a form that has to be deciphered. My short answer was merely more succinct. To my surprise and amazement, he finally gave in only to then complained as to why we should care.

Basically our use of time is in the comparison of how much one thing changed relative to another thing that is changing, “How many times did the second hand turn for each count of the Sun rising and rising again?” Time is merely the issue of how fast something is occurring relative to something else, just as length is the issue of how distant one thing is compared to something else. But time need not be measured only in cycles of events. Time can also be viewed as the number of events that occur before an event of interest occurs, “Events 1, 2, and 3, occurred then event 4 occurred.” It wouldn’t necessarily matter what else was going on, the sense and order of timing would still be in effect due to the concern involved in the order of events. But in all cases, events, changing, must occur.
 
We perceive time by virtue of the changing of our thoughts. It is common that after a panic situation, a person will report that everything seemed to have happened in slow motion. What occurs in such situations is that the person’s mind drops all concerns of distractions normally keeping the mind in semi-chaos and focuses on the imminent event. In such a state, the few thoughts required to analysis the person’s situation occur very much more quickly as every detail is assessed. Later, the person can’t recall as much time occurring between their thoughts and thus are left with the sense that reality slowed down.

Kung Fu masters practice removing distractions so as to fully and quickly assess a situation before acting. They are the opposite of what you see people doing online. They notably can move very quickly and precisely seeming to be able to counter objectionable events before there is any evidence that the event is going to occur. This is often expressed in their famous personal combat techniques. They simplify their thoughts through an understanding of harmony which allows for a mere few thoughts to fully express all that is to happen and thus yields very quick analysis. Interestingly, they learn this by first slowing themselves down.

If all of reality were to magically come to a stop, frozen in place, there would be no changing and thus no measure of it. One could not ask of how long reality has stopped. If reality were at this moment stopping and starting again, there would be no means for being aware of it as nothing would be affected because to have affect, change must occur and thus time.

But the question becomes, “If all of reality stopped, how could it ever start up again?” It couldn’t. One might suggest that God could start it up again, but that is not really valid because God is presumed to be a part of reality (unless you believe God to be not real) and the condition was that ALL of reality stopped, that would include God. Who could kick-start God? Or more importantly, how could they do it without changing anything, doing – an action, since they would also be stopped?

The general notion is that God is an entity who thinks and thus has a flow of thought yielding changes of mind and this was occurring before the universe was created. But if God was thinking, something was changing and thus time already existed even if the physical universe didn’t. Of course, it has been said many times by many people that God does not change. Generally that is taken to mean that God does not go back on His promises. But to some people, it is understood that God is not an entity who “thinks”, but rather that God is an immutable force and fully compensating every minute effect throughout all of reality, physical or not. Thus God is all-knowing and all-powerful in that nothing can occur without God’s attention and nothing can prevent God’s compensation. With this kind of understanding, God becomes the cause of changing, the cause of time and the cause of all reality being what it is. But such and understanding does not have God sitting around for any length of time before acting and any action constitutes time.

So we are left with the idea that the cause of time, the changing, whether that be God or not, could not have itself changed. As it is said, God is “outside of time”, meaning that God doesn’t change as time would require, but is a constant and eternal force, a Father, having no time associated. But if such an entity is going to cause time, cause changing, it could take no time in doing so else time would already exist. This leaves us with the conclusion that whatever began the changing, the time, has always been.

A cause is something necessarily associated with an effect. We often say that something is a cause when we really only mean that it is a causal factor, one of several combined concerns that together lead to the effect. We say that smoking causes cancer, yet we have smokers who never get cancer and cancer patients who were never near smoke. Smoking can be a contributor, but cannot really be the cause. And thus when we talk of the cause of time, we are not talking about merely a contributing factor, but the actual one-to-one instigator. When the cause is present, the event is necessarily present else the proposed cause wasn’t really the cause, but merely a significant contributor. The “cause of time” is referring to “ALL necessary for time to occur” and thus time will occur. And thus when the cause of time is present, time is immediately present.

This leaves us with the notion that the cause of time, God or not, could not have existed without time immediately occurring. The cause of time could not wait for something to come about before it caused time, it would start time immediately else not be the cause of time. So if time exists and is caused, then it has existed ever since its cause has existed and that cause could not ever have changed before causing time. This means that the cause of time, and thus time itself could have had no beginning.
 
Is time inherent in existence or merely in material existence? Does it exist objectively? Just wondering, couldn’t it properly be said that time is a property of the action of human intellect upon space?

Time may exist for a dog, but to the extent one can put oneself in the mind of a dog, it seems to exist merely as a conditioned response.

If intellect exists in a hierarchy, differing perspectives of time is merely an expression of that hierarchy. God’s view of time could be expected to be as logarithmically different from the human as the human is from the beast.
 
This leaves us with the notion that the cause of time, God or not, could not have existed without time immediately occurring. The cause of time could not wait for something to come about before it caused time, it would start time immediately else not be the cause of time. So if time exists and is caused, then it has existed ever since its cause has existed and that cause could not ever have changed before causing time. This means that the cause of time, and thus time itself could have had no beginning.
Doesn’t this assume that there is only one time frame and everything is in it? We know that’s not true, however, because the faster an object moves the slower its clock runs relative to a clock on an immobile object, although to the fast moving object time would seem as normal as ever. I asked before, what happens to time for an object moving at speed = C? Would it not appear to be stopped relative to slow moving objects and yet still moving in its own time relative to itself?

Ender
 
The error here is that you are trying to understand the concept of eternity from inside time. All that we know is time and therefore we only have a dim incite of what eternity is. We can only do the best we can in understanding it.

According to some, God, from eternity, *creates * time. Do to us being in time, from our perspective it appears that God *created * time. To God, everything that was, is and will be is present at one moment. Therefore there is no change in God. It does not mean that these moments have always happened, but that God conceives all of it at once. What you are implying in your argument is that God cannot exist without/ outside time. But then God would not be omnipotent because he would be dependent on time.

It is difficult to argue about this because we don’t fully understand the nature of time and therefore cannot understand the nature of eternity. I don’t think we ever will and it will remain one of God’s mysteries.
 
Well, Ender, as James was trying to explain, that object moving at the speed of light must be in panic mode. Which is exactly why time slows down for that object.

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Sorry I will go now.😃
 
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