Time in the afterlife?

[Pallas_Athene]

Many times I read that God is outside time, that all our time is “visible” to him, even if our future actions have not happened yet. I see a lot of problems with this concept, but let’s bypass those problems for a second.

The question for the “time being” (evil grin!) is about heaven, hell and - you guessed it - purgatory! Is there “time” in heaven, or is it a “frozen”, unchanging existence? Like a frozen grin on a painting? What about good, old hell? Are the souls(?) bodies (?) in hell also frozen? And finally, purgatory? It is supposed to be a “finite” punishment (say a few thousand or million years), but definitely “finite”. Which means “time”!! God is supposed to be “omnipresent”, but if he is “present” in our existence - where there is time, and also in purgatory, where there is time, as well, then God is part of time.

Do you have an explanation for this obvious contradiction…or is this just another “mystery”?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Many times I read that God is outside time, that all our time is “visible” to him, even if our future actions have not happened yet. I see a lot of problems with this concept, but let’s bypass those problems for a second.

The question for the “time being” (evil grin!) is about heaven, hell and - you guessed it - purgatory! Is there “time” in heaven, or is it a “frozen”, unchanging existence? Like a frozen grin on a painting? What about good, old hell? Are the souls(?) bodies (?) in hell also frozen? And finally, purgatory? It is supposed to be a “finite” punishment (say a few thousand or million years), but definitely “finite”. Which means “time”!! God is supposed to be “omnipresent”, but if he is “present” in our existence - where there is time, and also in purgatory, where there is time, as well, then God is part of time.

Do you have an explanation for this obvious contradiction…or is this just another “mystery”?

Huge theological and philosophical question. I don’t have the savvy to give you an answer, someone else more learned can answer your question.

I will say this; time in Heaven, Hell and Purgatory is not time as we know and experience it now.

 

[GEddie]

Time is physical, and so, without the human body, there can be no time.

If you are experiencing time, you would in some way be embodied.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ericc]

Many times I read that God is outside time, that all our time is “visible” to him, even if our future actions have not happened yet. I see a lot of problems with this concept, but let’s bypass those problems for a second.

The question for the “time being” (evil grin!) is about heaven, hell and - you guessed it - purgatory! Is there “time” in heaven, or is it a “frozen”, unchanging existence? Like a frozen grin on a painting? What about good, old hell? Are the souls(?) bodies (?) in hell also frozen? And finally, purgatory? It is supposed to be a “finite” punishment (say a few thousand or million years), but definitely “finite”. Which means “time”!! God is supposed to be “omnipresent”, but if he is “present” in our existence - where there is time, and also in purgatory, where there is time, as well, then God is part of time.

Do you have an explanation for this obvious contradiction…or is this just another “mystery”?

Purgatory is temporary. Therefore by definition some sort of before/after exists i.e. before/after something(cleansing) has happened. Whether the rate of cleansing depends on our physical time, I do not know. Spiritual cleansing has never been timed and whether different sorts of cleansing is done at different “speeds” or “intensities” I do not know either. It doesn’t matter because since you are already dead, you should leave such things to persons responsible for it. And knowing about it has no value add either. There is no thesis required and no certificates conferred to those who know and you can’t make use of that information either. Heaven and Hell is eternal. By definition there is no time in eternity. I don’ t know the physical properties of heaven and hell or even purgatory. Hence I can’t tell you whether does the concept of time means anything there. We have artificially created a time scale for our own use. Whether it is in seconds, or years. And we have defined a second to be

“the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom”.

I do not know whether there are cesium atoms in hell/heaven. I am fairly confident there are no clocks there. For what purpose? No one is going anywhere there and you don’t have a time constraint there either.

Time is a created creature of God. Whether God wants to be in or outside of time is his choice. He has chosen to be in our time before. But that does not mean he is stuck within our time. It is not an either or , it is up-to-him.

 

[ProVobis]

Before the universe/cosmos time had no meaning

I suspect after the universe/cosmos time will also have no meaning

In between, who knows? Maybe synchronization.

“Whatever will be bound on earth, will be bound in heaven” ?

I guess we might be able to extend that to whenever?

 

[The_Reginator]

Time is physical, and so, without the human body, there can be no time.

If you are experiencing time, you would in some way be embodied.

ICXC NIKA

What about Mary and Jesus?
They both possess human bodies in heaven.
How does time affect them?

Time vs. heaven/the afterlife is a question that has often fuzzied my poor little brain.

 

[ericc]

What about Mary and Jesus?
They both possess human bodies in heaven.
How does time affect them?

Time vs. heaven/the afterlife is a question that has often fuzzied my poor little brain.

Glorified bodies, or at least for Jesus. We know glorified bodies can pass through doors and appear and disappear at will. I think it is “time-proof”.

 

[Dorothy]

We are finite, and God is infinite. I remember being told that in Heaven it is eternally “Now”.

We will be in such a state of ecstatic joy that if we were offered all the treasures of the world we would not choose them.

We don’t need to bother ourselves with such ponderings. Look at all He did for us, and trust Him!

P.S. That eternal “Now” can be experienced on earth by those in deep prayer, when they are not aware of the passing of time.

Such things are difficult to put in words.

 

[Aloysium]

Many times I read that God is outside time, that all our time is “visible” to him, even if our future actions have not happened yet. I see a lot of problems with this concept, but let’s bypass those problems for a second. . .

People had the same problem getting their heads around the idea that the earth was not the centre of the universe. The planets revolve around the sun and the cosmos temporally revolve around God. So, the entire universe is not perpetually pushing forward from your moment. That said, it eternally does come into existence each and every moment, everywhere. That Source of everything, every place, every time is One - God. The future that has not happened is relative to you here, having set in eternity what you have done in each moment of your life thus far. The future will happen, it will exist, and God is there as He was and is Now, it’s Creator.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Time is integral to human beings and authentic human experience.

The heart beat. The rhythm of breath. These are signs of life.

We cannot conceive of a “timeless” experience, such things are beyond humanity. Even in a sensory deprivation chamber in a deep state of mediation the heart still beats, the breath comes in and out, the neurons fire rhythmically. We are beings who need time, it is part of our being.

The afterlife? Who knows. Personally, I believe there will be no “end of time.” I believe the World To Come will be the final evolution of this world, renewed and made perfect by God’s full revelation to us. Time will not cease, but rather continue indefinitely. Of course, this makes one wonder “who would want that?” Indeed, it seems like an endless existence would be unavoidably monotonous. In some way, the World To Come must be radically better than the world as it is now, but I don’t suppose the way to improve the world is to end time itself.

I believe in hell too, but it is more like “purgatory.” I think there is time in that place if there are bodies there. If there are only souls in hell, then I suppose it could be “timeless.” When the souls in hell are done being punished and instructed, they will be ready to join the others. As for heaven, I don’t think it is a place meant for human beings with bodies. I suppose heaven is the abode of God and the angels. These beings, having no bodies, can exist without time I guess. That doesn’t mean they can’t interact with time or with beings in time, just that they aren’t citizens of it like we are.

Ultimately though, speculation doesn’t do us too much good. I think it is best to focus on the here and now. We have control over so little, and what little we can influence is entirely in the “present.” It is our job to be good, to do what is right, and to love others. I don’t think God expects us to figure out all the details of the afterlife. If we really need to know, he’ll tell us.

 

[Beryllos]

An analogy from geometry may be helpful, bearing in mind that, as a finite way of thinking, it cannot fully answer the present question.

In geometry, one may speak of a two-dimensional world, like the surface of a fictitious planet where the inhabitants understand latitude and longitude but not height or depth. In their view, one can only go so far north, and eventually one reaches the north pole and there is no more north. They might imagine larger two-dimensional worlds, maybe even an endless two-dimensional world like an infinite plane, but they could not envision existing in three dimensions.

Furthermore, that planet could be set within a three-dimensional universe. The two-dimensional inhabitants of the planet cannot apprehend that their planet is part of something larger, not just bigger like the surface of a larger planet, or even an infinite plane, but larger at a more fundamental level, namely dimensionality.

Let us also imagine that there are beings in that fictitious three-dimensional universe who can look upon the entire surface of the planet, who recognize it as a subset of their three-dimensional universe, and who can visit the planet and intervene as they wish.

Now getting back to the original question, we could think of eternity as being a higher form of time. It is not just an infinite number of days, for even that is limited. It is not something completely separated from us, but rather we are surrounded by it like an island in the sea. Eternity is something greater than time, in ways that we are incapable of understanding.

 

[GEddie]

Glorified bodies, or at least for Jesus. We know glorified bodies can pass through doors and appear and disappear at will. I think it is “time-proof”.

That is the key, ISTM.

Spiritual bodies have no time, or rather, can move around time the way we move around on the earth.

ICXC NIKA

 

[yppop]

I am 82 years old and more and more, each day, heaven becomes an important object of contemplation. I’ve decided that since I have never seen a description of Heaven that is both imaginable and plausible and also accounts for that other possibility we call Hell, I stopped guessing what Heaven and Hell are like and began to imagine what I would liked them to be. It is easier to describe my Heaven than my Hell because fortunately this lifetime was closer to a Heaven than to a Hell. So here’s what I would like Heaven to be like: My mother, father will be in the same age-relationship with me as they were this time around. They won’t be teenagers and they won’t be ageless, they will be my mother and father. So too will my brothers and sisters, my children, their children and all the people I have known in this lifetime will be there just as they are or were in this lifetime. Yes, there will be the same animals, flowers, oceans, stars, rocks and all the things I’ve experienced in this lifetime. I will fall in love again with the same beautiful woman and live an entire married life immersed in romance, good humor, and friendship. My Heavenly life will be filled with the same or more of the laughter, wonder, love, joy, fun, peace, nostalgia, and piety that has filled this life. I will hit a baseball again; I will hear La Boheme for the first time again; I will sing babies to sleep in the middle of a quiet night again. I will eat peanuts, smell roses, hear a whippoorwill, see the ocean for the first time; see Broadway musicals, watch my children graduate, marry the same persons, and have the same children again. You get the idea.
On the Hell side, there will be diseases, earthquakes, plaques, floods, and all sorts of physical evil. But that stuff will be diminished as also will social evil such as wars, bigotry, injustice, tyranny, and poverty be diminished next time. Since I have had a minimum of disappointments in this life, I can’t describe a vision of a personal Hell but it would consist of far too many regrets and sins, none of which I care to share. But if I have confessed those sins, transgressions, and regrets, then they won’t happen in the Heaven that is my next lifetime because I will enter into it with a more effective conscience.
So my Heaven and Hell would look a lot like my present life except there would be fewer regrets and sins committed. In other words it would be palpably better. Kind of like the movie “Ground Hog Day” in which Bill Murray repeatedly wakes up on the same day, but with each repetition, he alters his behavior for the better, and experiences more and more joy. Each new life would be closer to Heaven and farther from Hell until I and all the rest of humanity achieved that goal a of being united in the fullness of the Mystical Body of Christ.
I am not saying with certainty that this is a theological view of Heaven in accordance with scripture and the “defined dogma” of the Catholic Church, it is merely what I want Heaven to be like. On the other hand, it describes how those that have been derived of a full lifetime of wonder, peace, and joy, like a young teen age girl with a fine mind and a body wracked with *spina bifida *can have a clear vision of hope. It also allows those now suffering in a life that seems like Hell to escape, so that eventually all bodies will be perfected and all souls will be sanctified. In the meantime, we are making our way through our personnel purgatories of sin and infirmity in which we too often make the wrong choices by failing to respond to God’s grace. Eventually we will all escape our personal Hell’s and arrive at that perfect world we call Heaven.
And how would this sort of Heaven/Hell come about. Well there does happen to be a scientific solution for my hope. It is called the Many World Interpretation of the Schroedinger wave equation. It is based on the principle of superposition which when applied to the wave equation means that whenever a choice is made between good and evil the world splits in two and you follow your chosen path. So if the MWI is real, it would mean a promise of successive lifetimes (parallel worlds, not to be confused with the multiple worlds theories). I have had the pleasure of experiencing the efficacy of the Schroedinger equation while working as an engineer in the semiconductor industry and have hope that I will get to live again in a parallel world that is even more sanctifying than the present one. It is with such hope that I find meaning in this life.
I find theological support for my view in the following excerpt from the Vatican’s 2004 International Theological Commissions report on “Human Persons Created in the Image of God” where it states in step 29:
The central dogmas of the Christian faith imply that the body is an intrinsic part of the human person and thus participates in his being created in the image of God. … The effects of the sacraments, though in themselves primarily spiritual, are accomplished by means of perceptible material signs, which can only be received in and through the body. This shows that not only man’s mind but also his body is redeemed. The body becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit. Finally, that the body belongs essentially to the human person is inherent to the doctrine of the resurrection of the body at the end of time, which implies that man exists in eternity as a complete physical and spiritual person.
From this I infer that since our bodies are resurrected at the end of time to exist eternally as a complete physical and spiritual person, and since in this present state the body and soul are imperfect, and since it is through grace and the application of our free will that we are justified, it seems plausible to me that there be interim states in which the process of justification and the perfection of the body is brought to fruition. Hence parallel worlds.

Yppop

 

[GEddie]

Yppop,

You said a lot. I will need to reread it.

ICXC NIKA

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I am 82 years old and more and more, each day, heaven becomes an important object of contemplation. I’ve decided that since I have never seen a description of Heaven that is both imaginable and plausible and also accounts for that other possibility we call Hell, I stopped guessing what Heaven and Hell are like and began to imagine what I would liked them to be. It is easier to describe my Heaven than my Hell because fortunately this lifetime was closer to a Heaven than to a Hell. So here’s what I would like Heaven to be like: My mother, father will be in the same age-relationship with me as they were this time around. They won’t be teenagers and they won’t be ageless, they will be my mother and father. So too will my brothers and sisters, my children, their children and all the people I have known in this lifetime will be there just as they are or were in this lifetime. Yes, there will be the same animals, flowers, oceans, stars, rocks and all the things I’ve experienced in this lifetime. I will fall in love again with the same beautiful woman and live an entire married life immersed in romance, good humor, and friendship. My Heavenly life will be filled with the same or more of the laughter, wonder, love, joy, fun, peace, nostalgia, and piety that has filled this life. I will hit a baseball again; I will hear La Boheme for the first time again; I will sing babies to sleep in the middle of a quiet night again. I will eat peanuts, smell roses, hear a whippoorwill, see the ocean for the first time; see Broadway musicals, watch my children graduate, marry the same persons, and have the same children again. You get the idea.
On the Hell side, there will be diseases, earthquakes, plaques, floods, and all sorts of physical evil. But that stuff will be diminished as also will social evil such as wars, bigotry, injustice, tyranny, and poverty be diminished next time. Since I have had a minimum of disappointments in this life, I can’t describe a vision of a personal Hell but it would consist of far too many regrets and sins, none of which I care to share. But if I have confessed those sins, transgressions, and regrets, then they won’t happen in the Heaven that is my next lifetime because I will enter into it with a more effective conscience.
So my Heaven and Hell would look a lot like my present life except there would be fewer regrets and sins committed. In other words it would be palpably better. Kind of like the movie “Ground Hog Day” in which Bill Murray repeatedly wakes up on the same day, but with each repetition, he alters his behavior for the better, and experiences more and more joy. Each new life would be closer to Heaven and farther from Hell until I and all the rest of humanity achieved that goal a of being united in the fullness of the Mystical Body of Christ.
I am not saying with certainty that this is a theological view of Heaven in accordance with scripture and the “defined dogma” of the Catholic Church, it is merely what I want Heaven to be like. On the other hand, it describes how those that have been derived of a full lifetime of wonder, peace, and joy, like a young teen age girl with a fine mind and a body wracked with *spina bifida *can have a clear vision of hope. It also allows those now suffering in a life that seems like Hell to escape, so that eventually all bodies will be perfected and all souls will be sanctified. In the meantime, we are making our way through our personnel purgatories of sin and infirmity in which we too often make the wrong choices by failing to respond to God’s grace. Eventually we will all escape our personal Hell’s and arrive at that perfect world we call Heaven.
And how would this sort of Heaven/Hell come about. Well there does happen to be a scientific solution for my hope. It is called the Many World Interpretation of the Schroedinger wave equation. It is based on the principle of superposition which when applied to the wave equation means that whenever a choice is made between good and evil the world splits in two and you follow your chosen path. So if the MWI is real, it would mean a promise of successive lifetimes (parallel worlds, not to be confused with the multiple worlds theories). I have had the pleasure of experiencing the efficacy of the Schroedinger equation while working as an engineer in the semiconductor industry and have hope that I will get to live again in a parallel world that is even more sanctifying than the present one. It is with such hope that I find meaning in this life.

Yppop

What a beautiful description of “your Heaven”, brought tears to my eyes. :crying:

I really hope it is like how you describe. :tiphat:

 

[ericc]

So here’s what I would like Heaven to be like: My mother, father will be in the same age-relationship with me as they were this time around. They won’t be teenagers and they won’t be ageless, they will be my mother and father. So too will my brothers and sisters, my children, their children and all the people I have known in this lifetime will be there just as they are or were in this lifetime. Yes, there will be the same animals, flowers, oceans, stars, rocks and all the things I’ve experienced in this lifetime. I will fall in love again with the same beautiful woman and live an entire married life immersed in romance, good humor, and friendship. My Heavenly life will be filled with the same or more of the laughter, wonder, love, joy, fun, peace, nostalgia, and piety that has filled this life. I will hit a baseball again; I will hear La Boheme for the first time again; I will sing babies to sleep in the middle of a quiet night again. I will eat peanuts, smell roses, hear a whippoorwill, see the ocean for the first time; see Broadway musicals, watch my children graduate, marry the same persons, and have the same children again. You get the idea.

If heaven is not a million times better than this earthly life, I’d think we’d have been shortchanged. Here we are constrained by a deficient material mind/body and our senses are limited to chemical/hormonal signals. Once cleared of all these constraints I am expecting our sense of joy/happiness/bliss/all the most wonderful thoughts to be unrestrained and powered by the beatific vision. It’s going to be a blast!

I don’t like to think of hell though. I dread to imagine misery/pain a million times stronger. The absence of God.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

The whole point of this thread was simple: to point out that all the speculation about heaven, hell or purgatory is nothing but unfounded, sheer speculation. Not even such a simple thing as “time” can be agreed upon within the group of apologists. The old phrase comes to mind: “the blind leads the unsighted”.

 

[GEddie]

The whole point of this thread was simple: to point out that all the speculation about heaven, hell or purgatory is nothing but unfounded, sheer speculation. Not even such a simple thing as “time” can be agreed upon within the group of apologists. The old phrase comes to mind: “the blind leads the unsighted”.

You are demanding more of amateur eschatologists than even science can give, as time is somewhat of a puzzle even in the physical space we know.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Beryllos]

The whole point of this thread was simple: to point out that all the speculation about heaven, hell or purgatory is nothing but unfounded, sheer speculation.

That’s not what you said in the OP, but it’s your thread, so feel free to redirect it.

 

[Ph0enix]

Many times I read that God is outside time, that all our time is “visible” to him, even if our future actions have not happened yet. I see a lot of problems with this concept, but let’s bypass those problems for a second.

The question for the “time being” (evil grin!) is about heaven, hell and - you guessed it - purgatory! Is there “time” in heaven, or is it a “frozen”, unchanging existence? Like a frozen grin on a painting? What about good, old hell? Are the souls(?) bodies (?) in hell also frozen? And finally, purgatory? It is supposed to be a “finite” punishment (say a few thousand or million years), but definitely “finite”. Which means “time”!! God is supposed to be “omnipresent”, but if he is “present” in our existence - where there is time, and also in purgatory, where there is time, as well, then God is part of time.

Do you have an explanation for this obvious contradiction…or is this just another “mystery”?

The movie interstellar kind of gave me an idea on how i think it works

Time is relative so time “time” in heaven would be a different pace than time on earth