Time is subjective hence God cannot live outside of time

[Justin_W]

:doh2: :clapping: lol Bookcat.

 

[Memaw]

In here I attempt to argue that time is subjective. We first have to note that we can divide the world into internal/subjective/spiritual and external/objective/physical. Our experiences also can be divided into subjective and objective depending on observed event. Lets focus on objective events which are related to something happening in physical. Objective events happen in the external world in a specific form. We however only experience now and have a memory of past since we can divide events into past, what we have experienced, now, what we are experiencing, and future, what we are expecting. In simple word, time is subjective for what concern our experiences and there is no need to assume existence of objective time since one has to assume the existence of all events which belong to objective past, now and future.

God is Eternal ! Eternity has no time( limits) as we know it. God created time. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Bahaman has created an innumerable number of these threads, and we’ve offered him both analysis and advice. He refuses to acknowledge either. No matter how thoroughly his argument is rebutted he sidesteps the refutation and continues to state the same thing repeatedly as though it were fact. With him, it’s no so much that he is testing and refining as it is him having a bullhorn and ignoring the people in the crowd…

Some people just like to argue! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Rhubarb]

Bahaman has created an innumerable number of these threads, and we’ve offered him both analysis and advice. He refuses to acknowledge either. No matter how thoroughly his argument is rebutted he sidesteps the refutation and continues to state the same thing repeatedly as though it were fact. With him, it’s no so much that he is testing and refining as it is him having a bullhorn and ignoring the people in the crowd…

I have read (I’m pretty sure) every thread recently he started. And I do disagree with every argument he’s made. But that doesn’t mean it’s not worth putting those arguments forth. Or at the very least, it doesn’t mean he needs to be mocked for it. I’ve seen plenty of bad rebuttals to his arguments too.

 

[seagal]

In here I attempt to argue that time is subjective. We first have to note that we can divide the world into internal/subjective/spiritual and external/objective/physical. Our experiences also can be divided into subjective and objective depending on observed event. Lets focus on objective events which are related to something happening in physical. Objective events happen in the external world in a specific form. We however only experience now and have a memory of past since we can divide events into past, what we have experienced, now, what we are experiencing, and future, what we are expecting. In simple word, time is subjective for what concern our experiences and there is no need to assume existence of objective time since one has to assume the existence of all events which belong to objective past, now and future.

Time is objective since it passes whether we are aware of it or not. Time passed for the universe for billions of years before conscious beings came along. Unless you want to argue that nothing at all happens unless we’re aware of it and that there was no time before consciousness.

Whatever your opinion about time, you didn’t say anything at all about God in your argument.

 

[Bahman]

False. Time is objective. The universe has a beginning and it will have an end. Thus it’s objective: it is all confined within one period and is moving towards that end. We as humans simply experience time as warped and subjective because our perception of reality can appear to slightly alter. For example if you’re in a car crash, time seems to pass super fast. If you’re in line at the BMV, it seems to go on forever. Yet we know that truly it is set and did not speed up or slow down. Ever since the universe came into being, the “big clock of the universe” started and thus time began. God MUST exist outside time. Only someone who exists outside of time could create it. Read st. Augstustines confession on time and God

How creation could have a beginning in a situation that time does not exist.

 

[Bahman]

God is not a creature to live inside time or outside of time.

God is God.

All of creation -including time- is contingent upon God who creates all that is. And causes all that is to continue to be…without God we would not be etc.

God is not contingent upon what God has created…what is created is contingent on God.

Repeating an assertion on different topics doesn’t make it true.

 

[Bahman]

It is going to depend on how you define time. If you define one second as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom, then time is objective. However, if you define time as an intellectual concept that enables humans to sequence and compare events, then it is subjective. For example, St. Augustine says that time is a distention of the mind (Confessions 11.26) by which we simultaneously grasp the past in memory, the present by attention, and the future by expectation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time#Definitions_and_standards

Truth is not matter of definition.

 

[Memaw]

How creation could have a beginning in a situation that time does not exist.

Time began with Creation, and will be with us till the end of the world. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Bahman]

All the senses. ‘Time’ is the measurement of changes around us. As Tomdstone said it is both objective and subjective depending on what aspect of it you’re measuring. We have given it a finite “quantity” which allows us to measure and catalog things in a sensible way, and this measurement is enacted on a day to day basis by observing the changes that occur around us. We measure time by the change of the light from the sun, or the sun’s position in the sky, or the temperature throughout the day, or the number of ticks a clock has gone through, or the number of levels we’ve beaten in a game.

Time that we experience is just construct of our minds. We perceive snapshot of objective reality and then we construct a continuum within our mind so called psychological time. There is no reason to believe that there exist a concept of time in objective reality as we cannot experience it directly because all happen in physical world is only changes.

As to your argument, you haven’t really made one. You’ve put a bunch of words together in a form that vaguely resembles a sentence, but the sentence doesn’t mean anything because it’s wholly irrational. Our personal interpretation of time is subjective, but time itself is an objective reality of the physical world. This is proven by the fact that things change. If things didn’t change then I’d agree that you could argue that there is no time, but since things do change there has to be some medium in which the changes occur (just as there has to be a medium for sound to pass from one point to another). This medium is what we “time.”

We experience time within us even if there is no change in objective reality. What exist in objective reality is only a series of events that we observe. Events happen with slow or fast rate with respect to our psychological time and that is how we call an event fast or slow.

Even if time were wholly subjective as you irrationally argue that would have absolutely no effect on God. It’s a non-sequitor argument, the conclusion doesn’t flow from the premise. Time as we understand it is an aspect of physical reality. Since God created teh physical reality, it is necessary that he is not contingent on it, just as the programmer’s existence is not contingent on the program he writes. As such, the nature of God is wholly separated from the nature of Time. While God, as the creator, can affect the flow of time, and manipulation of time would have no affect on God.

It dose follow that God cannot be outside of time if time is only subjective.

 

[Bookcat]

Repeating an assertion on different topics doesn’t make it true.

Yes. But thankfully in this case it is simply repeating the truth.

I have given you the answers to your various questions - as have others - not just an “assertion”… this is the “Catholic Answers” forum - if you do not wish a Catholic Answer- why are you here asking?

You keep posting the same kinds of questions - getting the Answers – they from Divine Revelation, or Catholic Theology or Philosophy – and then asking them again. Hence there has been a repeating of the answers.

.

 

[seagal]

Time that we experience is just construct of our minds. We perceive snapshot of objective reality and then we construct a continuum within our mind so called psychological time. There is no reason to believe that there exist a concept of time in objective reality as we cannot experience it directly because all happen in physical world is only changes.

There is every reason to believe that time exists objectively because that is what we experience. You could argue that time is simply a way to measure change but that’s just splitting hairs. Your arguments remind me of my high school geometry teacher saying there’s no such thing as a line because what we call a line is simply a series of points. Geometrically speaking, he’s right. But practically speaking, it doesn’t make any difference to how we draw a line.

We experience time within us even if there is no change in objective reality. What exist in objective reality is only a series of events that we observe. Events happen with slow or fast rate with respect to our psychological time and that is how we call an event fast or slow.

That doesn’t address my earlier argument in post #25 that time (or change if you prefer) happens whether we experience it or not.

It dose follow that God cannot be outside of time if time is only subjective.

As soon as you say “God cannot” you’re wrong. “God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.”
Saint Augustine

 

[seagal]

I want to expand on my answer above. I’ll assume, just for the sake of argument, that your premise is correct and time is merely subjective. To quote you

"Time that we experience is just construct of our minds. We perceive snapshot of objective reality and then we construct a continuum within our mind so called psychological time. "

In other words, time is just a series of snapshots that our consciousness stitches together to create a seamless flow, very much the same way that putting a long string of points close together on a piece of paper creates a line. How does that effect God? Not at all. God is still outside of me and my construct of time. God, having created me, knows how I perceive time and will make himself known to me in a way compatible with that perception. He himself is not subject to time in any form.

I don’t know if by your premise you are trying to disprove God or merely get us to look at time differently. If the latter, good attempt. If the former, it doesn’t work. We could very well be wrong about how God works in the universe, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist at all. You can’t just say “God can’t do such-and-such therefore he doesn’t exist”. For one thing, as I said in my previous post, as soon as you say “God can’t” you know you have a mistaken view of God. You’ve already put your own human limitations on an infinite being. You could try saying “I don’t understand how God could do such-and-such” and that might lead to an interesting discussion.

 

[Bahman]

There is every reason to believe that time exists objectively because that is what we experience.

We cannot experience time. All we experience is only snapshot of changes or motion. We all know how a movie which is nothing more than a set of frames manifest itself as a something which has motion. A movie is a set of discrete frame yet we observe it as it is continues which is not. Hence all motion in the world could be discrete yet they look like continues which are not.

You could argue that time is simply a way to measure change but that’s just splitting hairs. Your arguments remind me of my high school geometry teacher saying there’s no such thing as a line because what we call a line is simply a series of points. Geometrically speaking, he’s right. But practically speaking, it doesn’t make any difference to how we draw a line.

Yes, what exist in objective reality could be discrete motion.

That doesn’t address my earlier argument in post #25 that time (or change if you prefer) happens whether we experience it or not.

What happen for physical time if everything freezes?

As soon as you say “God cannot” you’re wrong. “God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.”
Saint Augustine

That is not really an argument.

 

[Bahman]

I want to expand on my answer above. I’ll assume, just for the sake of argument, that your premise is correct and time is merely subjective. To quote you In other words, time is just a series of snapshots that our consciousness stitches together to create a seamless flow, very much the same way that putting a long string of points close together on a piece of paper creates a line. How does that effect God? Not at all. God is still outside of me and my construct of time. God, having created me, knows how I perceive time and will make himself known to me in a way compatible with that perception. He himself is not subject to time in any form.

I don’t know if by your premise you are trying to disprove God or merely get us to look at time differently. If the latter, good attempt. If the former, it doesn’t work. We could very well be wrong about how God works in the universe, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist at all. You can’t just say “God can’t do such-and-such therefore he doesn’t exist”. For one thing, as I said in my previous post, as soon as you say “God can’t” you know you have a mistaken view of God. You’ve already put your own human limitations on an infinite being. You could try saying “I don’t understand how God could do such-and-such” and that might lead to an interesting discussion.

Why do you believe on something you have never experience it?

 

[seagal]

Why do you believe on something you have never experience it?

Are you talking about time or God? I have experienced both.

If you mean time, are you telling me that you yourself do not experience time?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . What happen for physical time if everything freezes? . . .

Is this what you are looking for? One possibility:

In less than about 100 billion years, the only galaxies still visible will be those gravitationally linked to the local group of galaxies, including the Virgo cluster and perhaps part of the local supercluster. All other light sources will have frozen in time and faded to invisibility. A Loeb 2002 Phys. Rev. D 65 047301.

 

[Bahman]

Are you talking about time or God? I have experienced both.

If you mean time, are you telling me that you yourself do not experience time?

I meant God. Why then God doesn’t reveal himself to everybody so we would not have any conflict?

And you cannot possibly experience time as it is mentioned before (a few post back when I discus movie).

 

[Bahman]

Is this what you are looking for? One possibility:

No, I didn’t meant that.

 

[Memaw]

Is this what you are looking for? One possibility:

Aren’t we smart to know all this!!! God Bless, Memaw