Time magazine current issue about the "Protestant Mary"

[jimmy]

Zooey:

Growing up in the Methodist tradition, I learned early that John Wesley had a great love & devotion for the Virgin Mary. He believed that she was a perpetual virgin,too.
I can also clearly remember the shock I got when I grew up & found out that other people in Methodism didn’t believe in the assumption…It was a given at my house. (If I could remember the Bible verse my grandmother used to prove it, I’d tell it to you…)

The immaculate conception, I have problems with…I don’t understand it’s necessity. (I know, I’ve heard it all. I just have a block…).I certainly have no problem with the thought that she is the greatest of saints…

Now, as to calling her the “Mother of God”–Well, she was!! I mean that’s obvious. If you believe in the deity of Christ, it naturally follows…
(That noise you hear is other Methodists throwing things at me.)

You are welcome here Zooey, we will protect you from the flying objects.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Its hard for Protestants to accept Mary for a variety of reasons, but most importantly it has to do with the way they were brought up, taught in “bible” school, seminary, etc.

Once you are raised with Mary being non-existant, it doesn’t matter how much sense Catholic Dogma makes to the Catholic, it will only register with the Protestant who’s heart is not hardened to Catholicism.

The ever increasing presence of Mary, and as long as she remains a topic of conversation for the media, or these forums, is a sign that the Lord is using her to bring this secular society back to the truth.

 

[wcknight]

Zooey:

Growing up in the Methodist tradition, I…

The immaculate conception, I have problems with…I don’t understand it’s necessity. (I know, I’ve heard it all. I just have a block…).I certainly have no problem with the thought that she is the greatest of saints…

Now, as to calling her the “Mother of God”–Well, she was!! I mean that’s obvious. If you believe in the deity of Christ, it naturally follows…
(That noise you hear is other Methodists throwing things at me.)

There is a general misunderstanding from others that one, we think Mary is divine, we do not. We believe she is entirely human, BUT she was given special priviledges that other humans did not receive, one, she conceived without original sin (Immaculate Conception) and two, that she was taken up into Heaven body and soul (Assumption)

These two doctrines came from Church traditions and theologians. The first argument was that since Jesus is perfect and divine, perfection can not be born out of sin (imperfection), and so it was reasoned that Mary too had to be free from sin.

At the time of this great debate (I think in the 1700’s or 1800’s), the Pope could not decide which group was right. Both sides insisted that they were correct and demanded that the Pope make a declaration in their favor. AND both side threatened to leave the Chruch if their opinion was not upheld.

Well, an event happened at Loudes, in which Our Lady settled the controversy for all time. She personally proclaimed that she was the “Immaculate Conception” to St. Bernadette. The Popes decision became a no brainer, and none of the opposing theologians could refute it. No split in the Church, end of controversy.

The Assumption came about because after Mary’s death, the Apostles went to her tomb and no trace of her body was anywhere to be found. Christians (ie Catholics) from the first century on, always kept relics of holy people. They were held in high honor in death as well as life.

There are relics of almost all the saints, but nothing was found of Mary. The empty tomb of Mary is just like the empty tomb of Jesus, Christians have always held the belief that Jesus took Mary body and soul into Heaven just as it was rumored that Elijah and Moses were taken body and soul into Heaven.

It was a belief in traditions that the Church decided to make official.

 

[CSJ]

mark a:

Hello CSJ,

It is difficult for me to understand how, for Protestants, the Mary issue far outweighs the whole “praying to saints” issue (or purgatory for that matter).

If Catholics couldn’t pray to saints, we surely couldn’t pray to Mary.

Can you explain this for me?

Thank you.

There are two “general” parts to Marian doctrine that I have difficulty accepting. One part is the prayer issue. I know that Mary and all the saints before us are more “alive” with Christ than we presently are - too obvious. I’m just not sure of any Biblical evidence that they can hear our prayers. Also, I feel that if I pray to Mary and/or any other saints that I am deifying them or deeming them omnipresent like God.

The second part is the remainder of the Marian doctrine (Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Perpetual Viriginity, etc.). While it may all make sense to a cradle Catholic, some of it is difficult for me to accept as the Bible is silent on it - i.e. Assumption. While I understand that her remains have not been found, to assume her Assumption is still quite speculative based on that one fact alone.

Regarding Perpetual Virginity, Matthew 1 states that Joseph did not “know” Mary UNTIL she had borne her firstborn son. While that verse may simply be there to stress Mary’s virginity, it might also imply that they consummated their marriage after Christ’s birth. It all depends on translation. There are other verses (i.e. Luke), but they’ve been hashed over too many times already in this forum.

Evidently, there is more prayer and study required on my part. Please note that I am not hardened toward Catholics (or I wouldn’t be here). I was baptized Catholic, but raised early on in a Pentecostal church - I’m almost a living paradox - LOL. Before last year, I knew almost nothing of Catholicism except for my misconceptions. I’m not closed to Marian doctrine - its just that the jury is still out.

Be certain of one thing - we can learn much from each other when we let our guards down.

Blessings,
Claude

 

[mark_a]

CSJ:

There are two “general” parts to Marian doctrine that I have difficulty accepting. One part is the prayer issue. I know that Mary and all the saints before us are more “alive” with Christ than we presently are - too obvious. I’m just not sure of any Biblical evidence that they can hear our prayers. Also, I feel that if I pray to Mary and/or any other saints that I am deifying them or deeming them omnipresent like God.

The second part is the remainder of the Marian doctrine (Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Perpetual Viriginity, etc.). While it may all make sense to a cradle Catholic, some of it is difficult for me to accept as the Bible is silent on it - i.e. Assumption. While I understand that her remains have not been found, to assume her Assumption is still quite speculative based on that one fact alone.

Regarding Perpetual Virginity, Matthew 1 states that Joseph did not “know” Mary UNTIL she had borne her firstborn son. While that verse may simply be there to stress Mary’s virginity, it might also imply that they consummated their marriage after Christ’s birth. It all depends on translation. There are other verses (i.e. Luke), but they’ve been hashed over too many times already in this forum.

Evidently, there is more prayer and study required on my part. Please note that I am not hardened toward Catholics (or I wouldn’t be here). I was baptized Catholic, but raised early on in a Pentecostal church - I’m almost a living paradox - LOL. Before last year, I knew almost nothing of Catholicism except for my misconceptions. I’m not closed to Marian doctrine - its just that the jury is still out.

Be certain of one thing - we can learn much from each other when we let our guards down.

Blessings,
Claude

Hello again,

It’s rather nice that you come to Catholic Answers to discuss things. Gettin’ it from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. I am by no means a “horse”. The more I learn, the more questions I have.

It sounds as if you have heard most or all of the Catholic positions concerning prayers to saints, Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc. so I won’t rehash them.

Do your questions really boil down to authority?

• Does the Catholic Church have the right to difine beliefs that are not explicit in the Bible?
• Suppose the Catholic Church can undeniably trace it’s roots back to Christ as it claims, does that mean it couldn’t have morphed into something unchristian as so many other Christians claim she has done?

Or do I completely misunderstand your concerns?

 

[Genesis315]

CSJ:

The second part is the remainder of the Marian doctrine (Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Perpetual Viriginity, etc.). While it may all make sense to a cradle Catholic, some of it is difficult for me to accept as the Bible is silent on it - i.e. Assumption. While I understand that her remains have not been found, to assume her Assumption is still quite speculative based on that one fact alone.

Regarding Perpetual Virginity, Matthew 1 states that Joseph did not “know” Mary UNTIL she had borne her firstborn son. While that verse may simply be there to stress Mary’s virginity, it might also imply that they consummated their marriage after Christ’s birth. It all depends on translation. There are other verses (i.e. Luke), but they’ve been hashed over too many times already in this forum.

This is where Tradition comes in. It clears up any ambiguities on Scripture. Don’t worry about rehashing (it’s what we do all day here, ). If you have questions, post them!

 

[Rogpodge]

mark a:

Hello again,

It’s rather nice that you come to Catholic Answers to discuss things. Gettin’ it from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. I am by no means a “horse”. The more I learn, the more questions I have.

It sounds as if you have heard most or all of the Catholic positions concerning prayers to saints, Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc. so I won’t rehash them.

Do your questions really boil down to authority?

• Does the Catholic Church have the right to difine beliefs that are not explicit in the Bible?
• Suppose the Catholic Church can undeniably trace it’s roots back to Christ as it claims, does that mean it couldn’t have morphed into something unchristian as so many other Christians claim she has done?

Or do I completely misunderstand your concerns?

 

[Rogpodge]

I am not catholic, but I do have some questions about praying to Mary or any other dead saint.The scripture tells us in I timothy 2:5 there is one mediator between god and men, the man Jesus Christ.
As I understand word mediator a go between negotiator. According to this scripture Christ is the only one that can do it. So tell me should I believe this sripture or not.

Roger

 

[Vinko]

CSJ:

I’m a Protestant with some pro-Catholic beliefs. However, do not begrudge me when I say that I do not understand the full extent of Marian adoration. Firstly, most Protestants do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, or the Assumption. They simply believe that Mary was an ordinary human being (like you and I) that was chosen by God for a most special purpose. For the most part, however, they are silent on the issue. Like birth control, it’s a non-issue.

From my own personal studies, I believe that she does deserve a special place of honor. After all, she did say “yes” to God and she is the one who bore, fed, raised, and taught Jesus, my Savior. I’m still uncertain on praying to (or through) her and the saints for intercession though - I really struggle with this. This is the “biggie” for most Protestants.

I’'ve been talking to a local priest regarding Catholic doctrine and he says humorously that I’m more Catholic than much of his parish because I agree with many doctrines (including birth control), but struggle with a few others. I can not convert though until I come into a full understanding and agreement with the Catholic Church - otherwise, I feel that I would be living a lie (albeit in part). Until then, I’ll continue serving God to the greatest extent of my knowledge.

Claude

That was a great post. Thanks for sharing that.

God bless you in your journey!

 

[Maccabees]

Rogpodge:

I am not catholic, but I do have some questions about praying to Mary or any other dead saint.The scripture tells us in I timothy 2:5 there is one mediator between god and men, the man Jesus Christ.
As I understand word mediator a go between negotiator. According to this scripture Christ is the only one that can do it. So tell me should I believe this sripture or not.

Roger

First of all there are no dead saints. They are more alive than you and I my friend for they see Christ face to face they intecee for us in Heaven.
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

Catholics beleive you should believe scripture. Yes beleive Christ is your one mediator. Catholics believe this also.
Without Christ Mary’s prayer for us mean nothing.
But Christ does exist as our mediator and Mary is in the body of Christ is she not? When she prays for you she is a mediator though Jesus Christ. Just as when you ask a friend to pray for you they act a mediator thought Jesus Christ. WHy ask your fellow Christian to pray for you if you should pray to CHrist alone. SImle becuase all Christians are mediators thought Jesus Christ becasue they are in the Body of Christ. Mary is the first christian and see CHrist face to face right now as she did when Christ was on earth she was the closest to him on earth and is now in heaven. If the saints are dead as you say we are all in trouble because we as Christians hope to be saints in heaven one day. If that future means we are dead in heaven then we should just become pagans for what future is that? Once in Christ you never die you have everlasting life. IF your church is inconsistent in this teaching of Christ you should ask yourself why does my pastor contradict Christ? Perhaps because your church is not Christ Church.

 

[MGEISING]

Genesis315:

You know, Mary’s Immaculate Heart is always mentioned with how various people’s will be converted and how Chritianity will triumph. I mean, she converted Mexico and Central and South America, the seed is planted in the Muslims who already revere her, and now the Protestants are joining in. I think it’s a really good sign of good things to come.

Excellent point. The subject of Mary, Our Blessed Mother, has always been a sore spot with our separate brothers and sisters in Christ - and if this is coming to fruition, wow! Not too long ago I heard a sermon at my inlaws church (Baptist Fundamental Independant) that Catholics worship Mary and we put her above Jesus … which is so absurd.

This could be a start of building a bridge … and help all of us i if not eventually, but one day become one … isn’t that awesome!

 

[Erich]

CSJ:

Regarding Perpetual Virginity, Matthew 1 states that Joseph did not “know” Mary UNTIL she had borne her firstborn son. While that verse may simply be there to stress Mary’s virginity, it might also imply that they consummated their marriage after Christ’s birth. It all depends on translation. There are other verses (i.e. Luke), but they’ve been hashed over too many times already in this forum.

I’m assuming you’ve already read the articles at catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp, but if you haven’t, I would recommend the one entitled “Brethren of the Lord.” In it you’ll find the following:

In the Bible, (“until”) means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that the action did happen later, which is the modern sense of the term. In fact, if the modern sense is forced on the Bible, some ridiculous meanings result.

Consider this line: “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death?

There is also the burial of Moses. The book of Deuteronomy says that no one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” (Deut. 34:6, Knox). But we know that no one has known since that day either.

Hope this helps!

 

[Erich]

Rogpodge:

The scripture tells us in I timothy 2:5 there is one mediator between god and men, the man Jesus Christ.
As I understand word mediator a go between negotiator. According to this scripture Christ is the only one that can do it. So tell me should I believe this sripture or not.

As catholicapologetics.net/One_mediator.htm points out,

Paul was discussing a specific type of mediation, the payment for our sins and the ransom of our salvation (1 Tim 2:6), which was achieved on the Cross…But in the general sense of the term there anyone can mediate or intercede on our behalf to God the Father…It is in this general sense that find the great Apostle Paul’s in his epistles asking the early Christian to intercede or mediate with God, through prayer, on his behalf…We also Find St Paul himself mediating with God, through prayer, on the behalf of others…The power of this mediation through prayer is clearly shown in the scriptures…

Hope this helps!

 

[CSJ]

mark a:

Do your questions really boil down to authority?

• Does the Catholic Church have the right to difine beliefs that are not explicit in the Bible?
• Suppose the Catholic Church can undeniably trace it’s roots back to Christ as it claims, does that mean it couldn’t have morphed into something unchristian as so many other Christians claim she has done?

Or do I completely misunderstand your concerns?

Hi again,

It’s not so much a question of accepting authority, but a question of which authority to rely on. For Catholics, it’s the Pope and I can respect that. For Protestants, it’s Scripture, albeit subject to translation.

I guess when you cut to the chase, I’m unsure about the infallibility of the Catholic Church’s translation. Being raised Protestant, Scripture was always the “plumb line”. I’m also the type of person who wants to know, understand, and be able to defend my faith - I’m unsatisfied with just taking someone’s word for it. I want to know how and why they came to the conclusion they did on any particular doctrine.
I’ve been attending the same Pentecostal church since 1982 and to convert to Catholicism would be nothing short of a monumental decision for me. It’s apparent to me that not all my questions will be answered to my intellectual satisfaction and that part of this decision will rest solely with my heart as I continue to seek and pray for the Holy Spirit’s guidance. I do know that God will be faithful though - after all He promised to be and the one thing God can’t do is lie. And that’s a reassuring thought.

Blessings,

Claude

 

[mark_a]

CSJ:

I’m also the type of person who wants to know, understand, and be able to defend my faith - I’m unsatisfied with just taking someone’s word for it. I want to know how and why they came to the conclusion they did on any particular doctrine.

You are in the right place (if you haven’t already checked out the rest of CA) to learn how and why Catholics believe as they do. There are plenty of great people on this board, too.

It is a common assumption among Protestants that all Catholics “must like being told what to believe” and that they don’t know their Bibles. I must admit this is true for a large number of Catholics. Non-practicing Catholics are the second largest religious group in this country.

I don’t think most of the blame should, however, fall on the Church. Using myself as an example- the Church was always there, but where was I? I wasn’t in church. I wasn’t abandoned by the Church to research Catholic theology on my own.

I’ve been attending the same Pentecostal church since 1982 and to convert to Catholicism would be nothing short of a monumental decision for me.

It would be great if everyone had your attitude about whether to convert (or not convert) to any religion.

It’s apparent to me that not all my questions will be answered to my intellectual satisfaction

Mine neither, but then 100% intellectual satisfaction requires 0% faith.

But I’ll betcha CA can come pretty close, even if you choose to disagree.

One more note, if you choose to read articles about Catholicism on this site, take note of the defensive posture of the work. CA is not about triumphalism or condemning anyone to hell.

 

[Zooey]

Rogpodge:

I am not catholic, but I do have some questions about praying to Mary or any other dead saint.The scripture tells us in I timothy 2:5 there is one mediator between god and men, the man Jesus Christ.
As I understand word mediator a go between negotiator. According to this scripture Christ is the only one that can do it. So tell me should I believe this sripture or not.

Roger

Roger, have you read what Protestant leaders like John Wesley have written about Mary? Because the antimarian sentiment that we hear is not what many of these men believed in… That was a more recent development.
Catholic & Protestant–& Orthodox–Christians have many differences, butIMHO, this does not have to be one of them.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

I just think that just the fact that Mary is a topic of discussion (front page of a major magazine) is great. I think that although it tends to common misconceptions of Catholic belief, it is a thought provoking article for the average Protestant. By the way, I love Protestants, even though I think they are in theological error. I have found so many to be real God fearing and loving people. I hope that Mary leads them to his son in his church.

 

[crazyage3]

A.Pelliccio:

I like the article, I hope that the blessed ever virgin Maria will open the hearts of our seperated brothers to other divine truths and that one day they will come home.

Mary wont do that…she’ll pray for them and lead us to Jesus . But only the Lord can actually “open hearts”.

 

[crazyage3]

A.Pelliccio:

I like the article, I hope that the blessed ever virgin Maria will open the hearts of our seperated brothers to other divine truths and that one day they will come home.

Mother Mary wont do that…she’ll pray for them and lead us to Jesus . But only the Lord can actually “open hearts”.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

crazyage3:

Mother Mary wont do that…she’ll pray for them and lead us to Jesus . But only the Lord can actually “open hearts”.

Good point, thats actually what I meant, but I’m sure the non Catholic would jump all over me for that statement.