Time of Marriage

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yes it is relevant because OP is talking about England where the Church of England is the established Church. Unless anyone knowledgeable there knows if civil law conforms or does not conform.
No, Church of England Canon Law is not relevant! I am the OP. I live in England. Church of England Canon Law only covers marriages celebrated in the Church of England.

Would you be happy as a Catholic getting married to another Catholic in front of a Catholic priest in a Catholic parish church to have your wedding celebrated according to the Church of England’s Canon Law?

The civil law of the state is separate from Church of England Canon Law. In fact, any religious elements whatsoever are strictly prohibited in civil marriage ceremonies. There may be similarities between Church of England Canon Law and English common law regarding marriages. There’s probably also a lot of similarity between Catholic Canon Law and English common law regarding marriages. That’s because English common law has been greatly influenced by Christianity and Christian morality.

The Church of England is the Established Church in England. However, its ecclesiastical laws are for the Church of England only. Church of England Canon Law is no more binding on citizens than Catholic Canon Law.
 
I think the question is whether there has been attempt by either the state or by the Church of England to make sure that rules (about such matters as the time of day of the marriage) are kept synchronized.

If the Church of England and the state worry about such things then the particular law of the Catholic Church in England might also.
 
I think the question is whether there has been attempt by either the state or by the Church of England to make sure that rules (about such matters as the time of day of the marriage) are kept synchronized.

If the Church of England and the state worry about such things then the particular law of the Catholic Church in England might also.
I agree with you on that point. The requirement with respect to the time of celebration of marriage in England is laid down in a statute, i.e. Marriage Act 1949. As Fr David said in Post #15 the Catholic Church in England would comply with this because of Canon 1071 2° (Canon1071): “1071 Except in a case of necessity, no one is to assist without the permission of the local Ordinary at: … 2° a marriage which cannot be recognised by the civil law or celebrated in accordance with it; …”.

It is the law of England that is taking the lead here, not the ecclesiastical laws of the Church of England.
 
No, Church of England Canon Law is not relevant! I am the OP. I live in England. Church of England Canon Law only covers marriages celebrated in the Church of England.

Would you be happy as a Catholic getting married to another Catholic in front of a Catholic priest in a Catholic parish church to have your wedding celebrated according to the Church of England’s Canon Law?

T.
please don’t yell at me I’ve had a rough day.
if you at the beginning ask your question with all the ramifications and information of the issue you are discussing it will save us a lot of time. You said in your OP you lacked the knowledge yo now claim to have, so since we can be of no further help, bye. have a nice day.
 
please don’t yell
Forums like this are very useful. However, they lack two important aspects of communication between two people: body language and tone of voice. I can assure that I was not yelling at you. If you knew me you would know that I do not yell. It serves no purpose. At least we can “yell” on the Net by using block capital letters, which I did not use.
at me I’ve had a rough day.
I am sorry that you had a bad day but how could I know that?
if you at the beginning ask your question with all the ramifications and information of the issue you are discussing it will save us a lot of time.
I asked the question in good faith and I believed, in good faith too, that I had given the necessary details for my question to be answered.
You said in your OP you lacked the knowledge yo now claim to have, so since we can be of no further help, bye. have a nice day.
Perhaps you could extend to me the courtesies that you want to be given to you. If you read my OP you would see that my question asked whether the Catholic Church had any requirements concerning the time when the sacrament of marriage was celebrated. My initial enquiry did not ask what the civil law in my country requires - I already knew that. I learnt from this thread that the Church conforms to civil law. So in England the sacrament of marriage is celebrated within the time frame dictated by law. I also wanted to clear up any misunderstanding about the status of CofE canon law in England.

I hope you are having a better day today.🙂
 
Now we’re getting into a whole different set of questions, because there are canons that deal with the minimum age for marriage. Canon 1071 goes on to forbid the marriage of minor children without parental permission. Also canon law says that the conference of bishops can establish a minimum age for marriage for each territory.

The Church will not consider an annulment unless the couple first has a civil divorce or a civil annulment. Therefore, if 2 16-year olds get married w/o parental consent (assuming they even find a priest willing to do this), but with a civil marriage license (again, assuming they can manage to pull this off), they would still have to get an annulment or divorce from the courts before the Church will consider a petition for a decree of nullity.

The Church does not want to interfere in civil law; that’s why the civil divorce must come first. In the eyes of the law, that marriage is legal, and if the Church were to declare a legal marriage to be null-and-void, that would be interfering in the authority of the state to regulate what constitutes a legal marriage contract. It would be similar to asking an ecclesiastical court to declare a real estate sale null and void based on Church law.
To Fr David,

There is something about this that fundamentally does not make sense to me. The Church witnesses and then blesses the Sacrament of Marriage to the couple being married in the Catholic church. But, if this couple’s marriage is not valid, the couple will going on living it as though it is invalid and address this when 1) they become aware, 2) they obtain a civil divorce, 3) they take the initiative to start the annulment process, and finally 4) they are granted an annulment.

Questions;
a) What happens if they are not granted an annulment by the Church. They are already civilly divorced; this imposes a conflict of Church law over civil vs Church law. I.e., civil law they are not married, but Church law they are.

b) What if civil law imposes a corruption or something against Catholic Church law into marriage (same sex marriage, India’s toddler parent marriages of their children, …); then the civil law contradicts or opposes the Church law; the two can not be reconciled and so by default cannot be held as the Church also mandates, in agreement.

c) What if the couple is ignorant that their marriage does not follow Church law (maybe they were forced to be married (royalty in Europe) and they never thought to question the arrangement) and so by Church standards they are not validly married. They would essentially be living inn sin without knowing it.

d) Why does the Church submit to civil law at all when it knows it is human based and by definition and common knowledge seriously flawed; for example, Nazi Germany?

M
 
This thread reminds me of a short story I read in Reader’s Digest some almost-forty years ago… “Father Duddleswell’s Back-to-Front Wedding” (taken from the book, “Bless Me, Father” by Neil Boyd.)

The main character, an Irish priest that lives in England, Fr. Duddleswell, is supposed to officiate at a wedding where the bride is Catholic, the groom Jewish. He forgets about the wedding, since “a Jesuit did the paperwork”, and attends a sporting event, at which he is paged, promises to be there quickly “if God is a good Irishman”, and when he attempts to leave, discovers that his car is blocked in by the other spectators and has a flat tire to boot. He calls the church and tells them that “God is an Englishman after all” and to start with the reception and that he will be there as soon as possible. He arrives, makes profuse apologies, and hurries off to change into clean clothes before he performs the ceremony.

Later, while relaxing with his associate pastor, he suddenly realizes that the wedding ceremony was performed after the legal hours for getting married in England and that the couple is NOT married. He says, “What time is it? After nine? I can’t very well call them now and tell them to stop what they’re doing!” So in the morning, he and his associate pastor show up at the couple’s honeymoon hotel and inform them that they are NOT actually married. The groom says, “I was under the impression that the Catholic Church does not approve of…” Both priests turn bright red. The bride starts laughing. “First we have the reception before the wedding, now the honeymoon before the wedding. Our children are going to love this.”

Fr. Duddleswell hustles the couple off to the church to perform a speedy ceremony and, I suppose, they all lived happily ever after!
 
To Fr David,

There is something about this that fundamentally does not make sense to me. The Church witnesses and then blesses the Sacrament of Marriage to the couple being married in the Catholic church. But, if this couple’s marriage is not valid, the couple will going on living it as though it is invalid and address this when 1) they become aware, 2) they obtain a civil divorce, 3) they take the initiative to start the annulment process, and finally 4) they are granted an annulment.

Questions;
a) What happens if they are not granted an annulment by the Church. They are already civilly divorced; this imposes a conflict of Church law over civil vs Church law. I.e., civil law they are not married, but Church law they are.

b) What if civil law imposes a corruption or something against Catholic Church law into marriage (same sex marriage, India’s toddler parent marriages of their children, …); then the civil law contradicts or opposes the Church law; the two can not be reconciled and so by default cannot be held as the Church also mandates, in agreement.

c) What if the couple is ignorant that their marriage does not follow Church law (maybe they were forced to be married (royalty in Europe) and they never thought to question the arrangement) and so by Church standards they are not validly married. They would essentially be living inn sin without knowing it.

d) Why does the Church submit to civil law at all when it knows it is human based and by definition and common knowledge seriously flawed; for example, Nazi Germany?

M
I think the Church generally prefers a marriage to be celebrated in accordance with the laws of the state in which it is celebrated as well as in accordance with the Church’s own laws. However, I think that the Church can celebrate marriage even when it is not in accordance with the state law. Canon 1071 states: “Except in case of necessity, no one is to assist without the permission of the local Ordinary at: … 2° a marriage which cannot be recognised by the civil law or celebrated in accordance with it; …”. This implies that the local Ordinary could allow the marriage to be celebrated even if it could not be recognised by the civil law or celebrated in accordance with it. The opening clause of the Canon even implies that under some circumstances it could be celebrated even if it could not be recognised by the civil law or celebrated in accordance with it, without the permission of the local Ordinary being obtained.
 
To Fr David,

There is something about this that fundamentally does not make sense to me. The Church witnesses and then blesses the Sacrament of Marriage to the couple being married in the Catholic church. But, if this couple’s marriage is not valid, the couple will going on living it as though it is invalid and address this when 1) they become aware, 2) they obtain a civil divorce, 3) they take the initiative to start the annulment process, and finally 4) they are granted an annulment.
OK. One at a time…
Questions;
a) What happens if they are not granted an annulment by the Church. They are already civilly divorced; this imposes a conflict of Church law over civil vs Church law. I.e., civil law they are not married, but Church law they are.
Here’s how there isn’t a conflict. First of all, the Church requires that a couple have a civil divorce (or annulment) before the Church will consider a petition for declaration of nullity. That way, the state already says the marriage doesn’t exist, so the Church isn’t in conflict with the state’s authority to regulate marriage as a civil institution.

On the other end of things, the Church recognizes the authority of the state to end the legal marriage bond. The Church says that when a couple divorces, the legal marriage ends even though the spiritual bond continues. Of course, “spiritual bond” has no standing in the eyes of the civil law. The parties are “free to marry” in the eyes of the state, but only in the civil sense. As a more practical application: let’s say that one of my own parishioners is divorced (no Church annulment). If he goes to the local courthouse and seeks a marriage license, I would not say to the marriage office “he’s already married and if he gets married again, that’s bigamy.” Of course, priests don’t hang out at the courthouse looking for such a situation, I’m merely illustrating the point. But if a citizen is aware that a person is about to commit bigamy, there’s a certain legal/moral obligation to notify the court (say, someone who is known for a fact to have a wife living in a different state). That’s where our American tradition of saying “if anyone knows why these two should not be united…let him speak now…” although that’s not part of the Catholic marriage rite.
b) What if civil law imposes a corruption or something against Catholic Church law into marriage (same sex marriage, India’s toddler parent marriages of their children, …); then the civil law contradicts or opposes the Church law; the two can not be reconciled and so by default cannot be held as the Church also mandates, in agreement.
Actually, civil and Church laws on marriage already conflict in many different ways. People get married (civil) all the time even though their marriage would not be a valid sacrament. If a Budhist marries a Shinto in the local courthouse, that marriage is not a Sacrament, but it’s a perfectly legal marriage. The state does not say that priests must perform marriages, only that a priest may perform a marriage ceremony if that marriage ceremony would be valid according to the tenets of that religion.

What the Church says is that in order for a priest/deacon to officiate at a wedding, all of the requirements of both Church and civil law must be met. The prohibition against performing a marriage which conflicts with state law does not mean that the state cannot perform a strictly-civil marriage which conflicts with Church law.
c) What if the couple is ignorant that their marriage does not follow Church law (maybe they were forced to be married (royalty in Europe) and they never thought to question the arrangement) and so by Church standards they are not validly married. They would essentially be living inn sin without knowing it.
That’s where “marriage enjoys the favor of the law” comes into play. Every marriage is considered valid unless/until proven otherwise. As for the sin part, because they don’t know it, they aren’t culpable. They can’t be sinning if they’re in a situation where the Church says “you are married.” (unless there was some serious deception involved from the start) A declaration of nullity is not “retroactive” in the sense that the couple was living in sin from the time of the ceremony to the time of the annulment (this is an important point). That’s why, when a couple does receive an annulment, the children from that marriage are not considered illegitimate.
d) Why does the Church submit to civil law at all when it knows it is human based and by definition and common knowledge seriously flawed; for example, Nazi Germany?
Most of the time, civil law requirements are reasonable and just laws. Of course, that’s not always the case. In Nazi Germany, an Aryan could not marry a Jew. Becuase that civil law was unjust, the Church was not bound by it. That’s why there’s that clause in canon law which says that a marriage which cannot be recognized by civil law cannot be performed in the Church without the explicit permission of the bishop. It can be done, but the bishop has to approve. In the US, in some states, inter-racial marriages were illegal until relatively recently. If such laws were still on the books, the local bishop could still allow the sacrament to be celebrated, even though such a marriage could not be recognized by the state, because the civil law is unjust.

The Church only submits to the state laws when those laws are just. Canon law reserves to the bishop the authority to make that decision.

Does it make sense now?
 
Questions still arise;
  1. If a couple get a legal divorce in order to be considered in the Church annulment process and then the Church finds they can not be granted an annulment then the couple must live in fundamental conflict with the Church versus legal standing.
The couple can not reconcile an agreement of both Sacramental and legal standing. Yet the Church maintains that it must meet local legal requirements which can not be done. So the two oppose each other in disagreement with the requirements of the Church.
  1. Vice versa: Many states exist where the marriage can not be performed legally and Spiritually; for example, those states where it is illegal to be Catholic. The legal state would make extinct then all Catholics in 40-50 years? Clearly this did not happen in Rome during the early Church or in Russia, China when it was illegal to be Catholic.
The fundamental issue is why the Church prescribes to any requirement of the state rather than dictating it. Here in the US, where the state is hypocritical with on the one hand mandating a separation of state and religion and on the other hand dictating/defining legal marriage requirements and then on the third hand defining marriage with judicial and legislative processes in secular no-requirement of the deciding people environments it seems fundamentally flawed. Why does the Church recognize such insanity?

And this then goes back to the basic definition of Church Sacramental marriage and annulment requirements and the legal state. The Church only ‘witnesses’ the marriage of a couple, but this marriage can be desired to be broken by the couple in the legal framework; does this then impose some sort of initial flaw in the couples ability to get married in the first place thus causing some question as to why the Church witnessed the marriage to begin with?

And then the fundamental prescription of sin held to the Church in the Bible; “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.” John chapter 20. Does the Church have the ability to define sin rigorously in any absolutes or is sin subjective?

I love the Church; believe me. I am not at all try to be critical; I am just trying to understand, trying to know the truth.

M
 
Questions still arise;
  1. If a couple get a legal divorce in order to be considered in the Church annulment process and then the Church finds they can not be granted an annulment then the couple must live in fundamental conflict with the Church versus legal standing.
The couple can not reconcile an agreement of both Sacramental and legal standing. Yet the Church maintains that it must meet local legal requirements which can not be done. So the two oppose each other in disagreement with the requirements of the Church.
  1. Vice versa: Many states exist where the marriage can not be performed legally and Spiritually; for example, those states where it is illegal to be Catholic. The legal state would make extinct then all Catholics in 40-50 years? Clearly this did not happen in Rome during the early Church or in Russia, China when it was illegal to be Catholic.
The fundamental issue is why the Church prescribes to any requirement of the state rather than dictating it. Here in the US, where the state is hypocritical with on the one hand mandating a separation of state and religion and on the other hand dictating/defining legal marriage requirements and then on the third hand defining marriage with judicial and legislative processes in secular no-requirement of the deciding people environments it seems fundamentally flawed. Why does the Church recognize such insanity?

And this then goes back to the basic definition of Church Sacramental marriage and annulment requirements and the legal state. The Church only ‘witnesses’ the marriage of a couple, but this marriage can be desired to be broken by the couple in the legal framework; does this then impose some sort of initial flaw in the couples ability to get married in the first place thus causing some question as to why the Church witnessed the marriage to begin with?

And then the fundamental prescription of sin held to the Church in the Bible; “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.” John chapter 20. Does the Church have the ability to define sin rigorously in any absolutes or is sin subjective?

I love the Church; believe me. I am not at all try to be critical; I am just trying to understand, trying to know the truth.

M
Civil marriage and matrimony are two different things. One can be validly married yet separated with a civil divorce.

Civil marriage is not religion, rather it is one legal way to enforce property rights and responsibility for each other and children.

Catholic matrimony is presumed valid, one can’t be 100% certain of it being free of defect because a spouse may be lying or incapable of giving consent or have wrong understanding of what the covenant is, or the marriage could be against the will, non-dispensible impediment, etc. So the Church performs due dilligence to make sure the matrimony is valid and licit.

Sin is defined objectively, but all three characteristics of mortal sin are needed for an instance of grave sin to be mortal.
 
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