Time to leave parish

[rosary_for_life]

I am also thinking of leaving my parish for some of the same reasons. No major abuses, but still, the priests don’t use the masculine pronoun to refer to God, and last week the priest sang the communion hymn instead of distributing communion. And the music is less than inspiring.

There is this parish that has both the extroardinary form and the ordinary form. I am considering switching there, and going to the extraordinary form. As a 24-year old Catholic, I obviously didn’t grow up with it, but I’ve gone a few times and love it!

Glad to hear I’m not the only one with the same problem!

 

[SemperFidelis]

I am also thinking of leaving my parish for some of the same reasons. No major abuses, but still, the priests don’t use the masculine pronoun to refer to God, and last week the priest sang the communion hymn instead of distributing communion. And the music is less than inspiring.

There is this parish that has both the extroardinary form and the ordinary form. I am considering switching there, and going to the extraordinary form. As a 24-year old Catholic, I obviously didn’t grow up with it, but I’ve gone a few times and love it!

Glad to hear I’m not the only one with the same problem!

If you do switch parishes, you’re definitely making the right choice!

 

[crmcfl]

Sometimes we go when we should stay and stay when we should go. Sometimes we’re put in a place to help change it. How is progress ever going to happen if we cut and run every time we don’t like something (not that you are, I’m citing past experience where I’ve stayed when I should’ve run and run when I should’ve stayed). Sometimes it all works out and we know we did in fact make the right decision. Sometimes we start nitpicking the new parish just as we did the old. Perfection is not going to be found in this world.

What concerns me is the amount of posting regarding not saying why you’re leaving. If we feel strongly enough to change parishes over something, we should jolly well be brave enough to say why.

Whatever you end up doing, I hope you’re deep in prayer over it. I hope you ask the Holy Spirit’s counsel and listen to what He has to say. As far as asking us, as you can see, you’ll get people on both sides of the fence. Ask God what He wants you to do and do as He asks.

And all of us should be in prayer every day for our priests, teachers, etc. We should pray for them at least as much as we criticize.

 

[crenfro]

I’d love to leave the parish I’m in now and go to this other one I get a lot more out of.

But I can’t think of where I read it, but I read somewheres that a person can’t just change parishes, but must make a valiant effort first in their current parish to speak out, charitably, about what’s going on, and then, after giving a fair chance, the same sort of chance that I’d like to be given after I screw up on with something in my life, then it’s okay for me to change parishes.

I need to find this somewhere. I think it was from some sort of official document in the Catholic Church.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Yeah, yeah. But it seems to me you fob off the TLM as mere “aesthetic”. It must be borne in mind, however, that the aesthetic is but an external expression of an internal reality. As such, many “untraditional” expression of the Mass are more than just a “bad show”.

It is aesthetic. The Latin language is a romantic language. The Mass sounds more beautiful in Latin then in English. The Mass in Latin makes the Mass more mystical.

You said that “tradition is relative” and back this up by the development of the Mass over time. I do not dispute this.

Good.

However, I do believe you are making a gross error in not putting much stock in tradition. You said Satan gloats over these things, and ordinarily I would agree. However, there is a validity in the “build-up” of tradition over time. Why? Because it means something.

That is the key. It means something. It means something to you or the Cradle Catholic. It does not mean anything to most converts because all we have known is the English version and that is our Tradition.

But to be quite honest I think God might just care about whether we receive at an altar rail or not, or on the tongue or hand… not from His point of view, you must see, but rather from the standpoint of the question of does it mean something to that person or not?

You are basing your opinion on what God cares about based solely on your own preconcieved notions and ideas of what reverence is. There is no writings within the Bible or the ECF that indicate such.

If we believe in the Eucharistic Presence then we may have certain sensibilities regarding kneeling or standing, receiving in the tongue, or in the hand. I am not saying that either is better than the other, but that there has to be some validity to them as expression of reverence. We do have a right, any a duty, to complain if they are expression of irreverence.

The reverence is based solely on personal opinion not any thing physical substantial.

You and others are exhibiting the exact same behavior as our Protestant brethren that have grown and be acclimatized to certain preconcieved notions and ideas. Reverence is relative to the mind of the beholder.

I personally take communion on the Tongue. There are those that dislike EOMs, in which I am one. You probably dislike EOMs as well. Preconcieved ideas and notions based on how you were raised as a Catholic? EOMs serve a purpose. You may not like or condone that purpose, but the purpose is there. You traditions tell you to dislike it even though it is causing strife and dvision against that which Jesus created…sound familiar?

At any rate, the OP is complaining that the liturgy is celebrated like a fast food enterprise, with the Blessed Sacrament disrespected in the Tabernacle, and with a generally superficial attitude. It’s a fair complaint, isn’t it?

Yes it is a fair complaint, but his other complaints are not.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Liturgy is celebrated with convenience in mind, get em in get em out.

Why do you say this? Because they utilize EOMs?

Tithing (very important) is the topic of 3 out 4 homilies

It better be important. But I would have to agree with the frequency. You parish has no stewardship program? Our priest makes a plea for tithe only once a year. We also don’t do second collections. The second collection is taken from the tithe. People don’t like to be nickeled and dimed to death with an offering plate or offering basket.

, flip flop

no problem with flip flops, Jesus and the Apostles wore something similar.

and belly buttons abound,

I got a problem with that as well. Sounds like some homilies need to be done to curb this.

conversation is done in the nave not the vestibule on and on

. Ushers, should be curtailing this. I am usher coordinator, I will jump someone in a heartbeat for chatter in the wrong places.

You should see people pass right on by the Tabernacle (side chapel, but very much visible) like it was a bread box.

That is because you have a side chapel and the tablernacle is not where it should be. It should up on the Altar taking center stage where it is the focus of your attention, not off to the side.

I found out this morning we pay the member of our Schola, and only a couple are Catholic, the rest are protestants! We have no money for RCIA but we shell out $600 a week for protestants to sing during our Eucharist!

Fire the protestants and get the members involved. Look into stewardship programs.

 

[markadm]

However, I do believe you are making a gross error in not putting much stock in tradition. You said Satan gloats over these things, and ordinarily I would agree. However, there is a validity in the “build-up” of tradition over time. Why? Because it means something.

Oh come off it. Actually, I am a convert, and my preference for the TLM is not because of the Latin. I would like it in English as well (assuming a nice, possible Elizabethan, translation was found). It is because of what it represents–it does not represent a 40 year old concept of the Mass, badly gone wrong, and badly gone off-track–it is because its something much, much older. Though, truth be told, I must be off my rocker, because the Novus Ordo, when done right, seems to justabout represent that too.

Reverence is, of course, relative to the mind of the beholder! I agree; that is why I mentioned the Orthodox to show that standing might not be irreverent (for them), and why us kneeling might not make sense to them. But both are valid expressions of the evolution of tradition within the Church.

Anyway, you’ve lost me with some nomenclature. What is an EOM? Do you mean an EMHC?

 

[chotock]

Joey, let me address your observations.

I don’t have a problem with EMHC’s, I have a problem when the Sacristan has to run around to find 4 or 5 of them every Sunday. It’s not like one or two, its a half dozen. The get 'em in get 'em out attitude is not about the EMHC’s. Its about how we make every effort to keep Mass at a neat 58 minutes. Sure we don’t want to go all day, but we don’t want to rush through the Liturgy, it makes it feel like an imposition rather than a gift.

Flip flops, c’mon man. There is a difference between the only pair of shoes an Apostle had, and the mass market rubber foam things we have today. Besides, when a person is wearing flip flops, you can bet that they are not dressed as though they are about to meet their Saviour. It is an exterior sign of an interior disposition.
It is not uncommon for me to see a parishioner impeccably dressed for work or dinner during the week, and in flip flops and shorts/blue jeans at Mass. They disrespect GOd and those around them by making the Mass appear an imposition to their day off, a mere bump in their schedule.

Ushers are as loud, if not more so, than the people talking. And the priest usually is walking around, vested, before Mass and after, chit chatting also.

My reasons for leaving go beyond the Mass, its goes to the prevailing attitude that nothing special exist in the Church. The indifferentism is like an oil slick on everything we do. I make a complaint about the vicar of the ECUSA “cathedral” being vested and in our Sanctuary, and I get told to lighten up. Or a female ECUSA minister reading the intentions of our joint performance of Faure’s Requiem Mass, from the Ambo. I hear how great it is we are working on unity with them. See a problem here?

Its not about my comfort, its about right and wrong, real and false ecumenism. Its about being more concerned with the collection basket that our Lord in the tabernacle. I am leaving because I am wore out, I am tired of hearing how closed minded I am or how I just need to relax and let people do what they feel is best for them. This is not about me or you, but about how WE approach God as Christ’s body on earth. Perhaps some folks can overlook everything and become insular in their approach to Liturgy, but I can not, at least not at this time in my life. Therefore I have begun to look for a community that doesn’t just show up to Mass because they have to, but because they want to. I wnt a parish that is not afraid of the Church’s teachings, but conform their lives to it, together.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Joey, let me address your observations.

I don’t have a problem with EMHC’s, I have a problem when the Sacristan has to run around to find 4 or 5 of them every Sunday. It’s not like one or two, its a half dozen. The get 'em in get 'em out attitude is not about the EMHC’s. Its about how we make every effort to keep Mass at a neat 58 minutes. Sure we don’t want to go all day, but we don’t want to rush through the Liturgy, it makes it feel like an imposition rather than a gift.

Flip flops, c’mon man. There is a difference between the only pair of shoes an Apostle had, and the mass market rubber foam things we have today. Besides, when a person is wearing flip flops, you can bet that they are not dressed as though they are about to meet their Saviour. It is an exterior sign of an interior disposition.
It is not uncommon for me to see a parishioner impeccably dressed for work or dinner during the week, and in flip flops and shorts/blue jeans at Mass. They disrespect GOd and those around them by making the Mass appear an imposition to their day off, a mere bump in their schedule.

Ushers are as loud, if not more so, than the people talking. And the priest usually is walking around, vested, before Mass and after, chit chatting also.

My reasons for leaving go beyond the Mass, its goes to the prevailing attitude that nothing special exist in the Church. The indifferentism is like an oil slick on everything we do. I make a complaint about the vicar of the ECUSA “cathedral” being vested and in our Sanctuary, and I get told to lighten up. Or a female ECUSA minister reading the intentions of our joint performance of Faure’s Requiem Mass, from the Ambo. I hear how great it is we are working on unity with them. See a problem here?

Its not about my comfort, its about right and wrong, real and false ecumenism. Its about being more concerned with the collection basket that our Lord in the tabernacle. I am leaving because I am wore out, I am tired of hearing how closed minded I am or how I just need to relax and let people do what they feel is best for them. This is not about me or you, but about how WE approach God as Christ’s body on earth. Perhaps some folks can overlook everything and become insular in their approach to Liturgy, but I can not, at least not at this time in my life. Therefore I have begun to look for a community that doesn’t just show up to Mass because they have to, but because they want to. I wnt a parish that is not afraid of the Church’s teachings, but conform their lives to it, together.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Well considering this didn’t happen:

“The use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites”

or this:

“The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services”

and that this does happen on a regular basis:

“No other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority. . . . Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing”

One can easily see that the TLM is far closer to Sacrosanctum Concilium than the NO, and due to the irregularities in the offering of the NO, why one has to parish hop.

I understand the irregularities between the vernacular vs. Latin and I see none and neither does the Church. The Latin is preserved just not in every vernacular Mass but it is preserved. As far as Gregorian chant I see it in every NO Mass I attend as part of the liturgy. It hardly sounds like the Benedictine monks but its there in every Mass. The liturgy is not changed. There are several forms allowed. Some argue that what you site is a license to take liberties and others that the things adopted are genuinely for the good of the Church. If we’re not active at the parish level and simply here arguing about an opinion then it’s nothing more than idol talk.

I have lived through the innovations coming out of these interpretations. My first communion was at the altar rail in Latin and I had no clue what was going on. Since then I have been involved at the parish level in defense against abuses of liberalism and modernism (coming from Franciscan nuns) no less so I know exactly where you’re coming from. However I must say in that process I have also seen first hand the harm ultra traditionalism can do. I would say the Lord makes straight with crooked lines sometimes. Imagine what good would come of it for me if I had remained not knowing what was going on. I doubt I would have learned Latin or to turn to the GIRM and Bishops for answers or even the CCC for that matter.

I can also understand the need for someone to go to a parish where they feel better fed spiritually if under advice of their spiritual advisor to ensure it’s not for the wrong reasons. I also know from personal experience that if you are parish hopping to look for perfection then you aren’t going to find it. If you feel burned out in a ministry simply take a sabbatical or resign. Becoming frustrated and despairing then running away I think is the wrong answer though the answer is seldom simple. It’s not only a challenge to follow Gods will but sometimes it’s equally a challenge just to know what it is. I once heard mother Angelica say “if you really want to know if something is Gods will then give it a try and see what happens.”

Peace.

 

[SemperFidelis]

I understand the irregularities between the vernacular vs. Latin and I see none and neither does the Church. The Latin is preserved just not in every vernacular Mass but it is preserved. As far as Gregorian chant I see it in every NO Mass I attend as part of the liturgy. It hardly sounds like the Benedictine monks but its there in every Mass. The liturgy is not changed. There are several forms allowed. Some argue that what you site is a license to take liberties and others that the things adopted are genuinely for the good of the Church. If we’re not active at the parish level and simply here arguing about an opinion then it’s nothing more than idol talk.

I have lived through the innovations coming out of these interpretations. My first communion was at the altar rail in Latin and I had no clue what was going on. Since then I have been involved at the parish level in defense against abuses of liberalism and modernism (coming from Franciscan nuns) no less so I know exactly where you’re coming from. However I must say in that process I have also seen first hand the harm ultra traditionalism can do. I would say the Lord makes straight with crooked lines sometimes. Imagine what good would come of it for me if I had remained not knowing what was going on. I doubt I would have learned Latin or to turn to the GIRM and Bishops for answers or even the CCC for that matter.

I can also understand the need for someone to go to a parish where they feel better fed spiritually if under advice of their spiritual advisor to ensure it’s not for the wrong reasons. I also know from personal experience that if you are parish hopping to look for perfection then you aren’t going to find it. If you feel burned out in a ministry simply take a sabbatical or resign. Becoming frustrated and despairing then running away I think is the wrong answer though the answer is seldom simple. It’s not only a challenge to follow Gods will but sometimes it’s equally a challenge just to know what it is. I once heard mother Angelica say “if you really want to know if something is Gods will then give it a try and see what happens.”

Peace.

If you have Gregorian Chant in your NO, than you are very lucky, and attend a NO that probably resembles <5% of the NO Masses offered. I have been to excellent NO’s before, but in all reality that only constitutes a very small percentage, and they are few and far between. Whereas, every TLM that I’ve ever heard of, is inline with Vatican II, as compared to that very small percent of NOs. As per the Latin, “Latin should be retained in the Latin Rite,” that includes its use in the NO. The NOs that use even a very small amount of Latin, are probably even a smaller percentage than the NOs who have Gregorian Chant. You can’t possibly say that the large majority of NOs adhere to Sacrosanctum Concilium. I don’t think the NO should be completely abolished, but that the Vatican should make the Mass adhere to what Vatican II actually says. In the least, the Liturgy of the Eucharist should be in Latin, and Gregorian Chant should be widespread and commonplace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

If you have Gregorian Chant in your NO, than you are very lucky, and attend a NO that probably resembles <5% of the NO Masses offered. I have been to excellent NO’s before, but in all reality that only constitutes a very small percentage, and they are few and far between. Whereas, every TLM that I’ve ever heard of, is inline with Vatican II, as compared to that very small percent of NOs. As per the Latin, “Latin should be retained in the Latin Rite,” that includes its use in the NO. The NOs that use even a very small amount of Latin, are probably even a smaller percentage than the NOs who have Gregorian Chant. You can’t possibly say that the large majority of NOs adhere to Sacrosanctum Concilium. I don’t think the NO should be completely abolished, but that the Vatican should make the Mass adhere to what Vatican II actually says. In the least, the Liturgy of the Eucharist should be in Latin, and Gregorian Chant should be widespread and commonplace.

The Gloria is Gregorian Chant my friend so all Masses have it. Watch around ChristMass and Easter. You may even see it and other Gregorian chants sung in Latin.

I can of good consceince say that the NO adheres to SC and is acomplishing exactly what Vat II intended.

Peace.

 

[SemperFidelis]

The Gloria is Gregorian Chant my friend so all Masses have it.

The Gloria alone does not equal “pride of place” like Vatican II suggested.

Watch around ChristMass and Easter. You may even see it and other Gregorian chants sung in Latin.

Highly doubtful where I go to Mass, and where most people do for that matter.

I can of good consceince say that the NO adheres to SC and is acomplishing exactly what Vat II intended.

Has Latin been preserved in the MAJORITY of NOs, or does Gregorian Chant “have a pride of place”? If you answer yes, then I’m sorry but you are blind. It’s simple:

TLM - always adheres to Sacrosanctum Concilium

NO as currently offered - VERY, very rarely does.

 

[Joab_Anias]

The Gloria alone does not equal “pride of place” like Vatican II suggested.

Sure it does. Are you suggesting that Vatican II is contrary to Mass in the vernacular?

Highly doubtful where I go to Mass, and where most people do for that matter.

Gloria in excelsis deo. Amen?

Has Latin been preserved in the MAJORITY of NOs, or does Gregorian Chant “have a pride of place”? If you answer yes, then I’m sorry but you are blind. It’s simple:

TLM - always adheres to Sacrosanctum Concilium

NO as currently offered - VERY, very rarely does.

Matter of interpretation I guess. Its the place of bishops to make that interpretation. If we try to do it we risk the danger of dissent.

Would you say the vernacular Masses in Rome are not adherant to its own declarations?

Lord Jesus that I may see my own faults and know myself.

Peace.

 

[markadm]

The Gloria is Gregorian Chant my friend so all Masses have it.

If you get Gregorian Chant, that is. We don’t.

 

[Crumpy]

our neighboring parish has suffered through a similar 20 yr roller coaster, different details but same effects, and consequently many members worship here and are active here. all it takes is registering in the new parish that is not your territorial parish. there is no need to tell anyone anything at the old parish, including the pastor. just tell the person you report to in your ministry that you have other commitments and will not be able to continue. never complain, never explain (HankII).

along with the other problems, you may also be suffering from plain old burnout. at the new parish (and I suggest worshipping there for at least 6 months before your register formally and volunteer for anything so you get to know them better) volunteer for only one ministry, and the one that gives you the most satisfaction, in which you seem most effective, and only after some hard discernment.

above all find a good confessor and spiritual director. and do recall that “enjoyment” is not necessary to a valid or nourishing experience of Mass, Christ is necessary, and yes he is present even in the Mass with the whiney music, bored ministers and irreverent congregants.

I agree with pa. But, in my diocese, there are too many heretics and I have formally withdrawn from the parish. I won’t attend a protestant church, even one masquerading as a Catholic one.

I don’t know what it means to have a pro-ga parish. I am only interested in one that is pro-Christian. There is only one truth, one gospel, one savior Jesus Christ.

In his Introduction to Christianity, Benedict XVI explains what faith is. Faith is NOT something that comes to us by reason or intellect, but by hearing the Word and responding to it. We are a community that is united in our hearing and responding to the Word.

Jesus is not an idea, the Pope said, but he is the Way. So, having a pro-gay agenda is an idea from men, not from God. We are to help carry each others burdens, but only along the Way of Jesus Christ. This is not even the Pope’s idea, but you can recognize it from the words of the Bible. And, we should not be ashamed of those words.

By all means, find a different parish, take a sabbatical from all the parish work. Maybe this is where the Spirit is guiding you.

I’ve never heard anyone thank a catechist. I hope you know that you are appreciated.

 

[Joab_Anias]

If you get Gregorian Chant, that is. We don’t.

You don’'t sing/recite the “Glory to God in the highest” during the Mass? I have never seen one without it except during certain seasons.

 

[Joab_Anias]

By all means, find a different parish, take a sabbatical from all the parish work. Maybe this is where the Spirit is guiding you.

Be sure its the Holy Spirit though and not a schismatic one

 

[SemperFidelis]

Sure it does. Are you suggesting that Vatican II is contrary to Mass in the vernacular?

It most absolutely doesn’t. No I’m not saying that Vatican II is contrary to limited use of the vernacular, but I am saying the Mass as currently offered is contrary to Vatican II.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Joey said:
That is the key. It means something. It means something to you or the Cradle Catholic. It does not mean anything **to most converts **because all we have known is the English version and that is our Tradition.

Someone said: Oh come off it. Actually, **I am a convert, and my preference for the TLM **is not because of the Latin. I would like it in English as well (assuming a nice, possible Elizabethan, translation was found).

Someone…

First. Joey said most.

Second. You are not most.

Third. It is your preference.

Fourth, you Protestant background is evident since you took the statement by Joey out of context and took MOST to mean ALL or at least your ex-protestant glasses missed the MOST part of the statement.

Fifth. There is too much of a hangup on terminology. I use the term EOM as well since that is what is it is called here in Alabama. Even my Priest uses that term.

Sixth. Just as the Catholics here at CA are a very small minority the Traditionalists are even smaller. And like all minorities, the traditions you hold fast to will also more then likely die out over the course of time. Like said earlier. The traditions have developed over time. Indvidiual parts of that tradition have come and gone just like the winds.

Seventh. Any forced attempt to restore the Latin Rite will be met with great opposition. Many priests will oppose this. I will oppose it. Why? The vast majority of American Catholics do not understand or comprehend Latin. To sit thru an entire Mass and not being able to interpret the Latin will cause the mind to wander. People will migrate toward Protestant churches where ENGLISH IS SPOKEN AND WHERE SCRIPTURE IS READ IN ENGLISH AND PRAYERS ARE DONE IN ENGLISH.
Latin no longer has a place. It was dead 500 years ago. It’s even more dead now. The English Mass is just the next logical step in the development of Tradition, just as the Douay Rheims was the next logical step.

Eighth. Traditionalists, why stop at the Latin Mass? Why not ban all all non-latin Bibles as heretical and bring back the Latin Vulgate back to it’s TRADITIONAL state?

Do you get the point yet? Or are you still so prideful of your Latin and Tridentine Traditions?