Time to leave?

[KindredSoul]

Thank you for your responses. It is something I will continue to think and pray about, however, I can see the probable outcome. Being told that your love isn’t real or true hurts. Knowing my partner, if I were to leave him it would make him resentful of the church, it’s unlikely to lead him to God unless by divine grace.

May I say, with great sympathy, that even though the Church cannot condone sexual activity between two men, this is far from saying your love isn’t real or true. David said of Jonathan, in the Bible, “Your love was above the love of women!” The Church, like our Jewish brothers and sisters, holds David in high regard as having been “the apple of God’s eye,” a great and important figure. There is no evidence that he and Jonathan had a sexual relationship, but for David to have called his love higher than that of women’s clearly demonstrates that it is possible for non-sexual relationships to be every bit as intense, every bit as loving, every bit as important, as marital relationships. For David, evidently, his friendship with Jonathan was even more intense than anything he was experiencing with spouses.

Love between two men IS real, and the Church doesn’t deny it. And it’s perfectly valid and wonderful to cultivate love between two men, even a deep, zealous and intense love. If David could feel that way about Jonathan, and neither Scripture nor Church frowns on this, then it’s okay for you to feel that way too. And to celebrate it, to rejoice in it, to throw your whole heart into it (at least as far as anyone ought to throw their whole heart into any relationship other than with God).

So please know that, while the Church does indeed ask two people of the same gender to refrain from sex, the Church in no way asks them to hold back on love. Speaking as a great admirer of same-gender friendships throughout history, to say that such love is less just because it doesn’t involve sex would be a tragic error.

I’m praying for you. Having taken a peak at the link in Prodigal_Son’s post, I would second his recommendation as well.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[JamesATyler]

There is a couple of things I have learned over my lifetime so far. I’ve learned that sexual attraction does not necessarily mean you love someone. I have seen many woman over my lifetime and desired sex with them but I did not love them. I’ve also learned that love and lust sometimes prompt alternate impulses. I know this one young girl who I have a friendship with. She is 20 years younger than myself and we are mutually attracted to each other. Out of sexual desire, I can look for ways to rationalize having a sexual relationship with her and she does the same. But out of love, I deny my sexual impulse coming to fruition. There are many good reasons which we both acknowledge. Love sometimes needs to sacrifice something like sexual attraction. Sexual attraction tends to look for ways to throw out good sense when it stands in the way which why there is adultery, fornication, and lots of things taking place. I know for certain, that sexual desire looks for ways to remove any obstacle even if it God’s commandments. So people rationalize one way or the other. That is lust in operation. Love tends to look for what is best for a person. If the OP loves as he says so, then the struggle is very difficult. If you are believing what you are hearing when you hear that God does not approve of homosexuality then out of love the struggle with this issue has developed. The fact that the struggle exists shows that your love exists. You seek do what is true and right for your partner. yourself, and God. This is not coming from the desire of the flesh but from love. What you are being called to do is sacrifice the desire of your flesh.

 

[SecretCatholic]

all you need Is love.

Love is selfishly willing the good of the other. Is it good for the poster and his partner to be in this romantic relationship? Is it truly loving? Or does it, instead, put both of them in spiritual jeopardy?

May I say, with great sympathy, that even though the Church cannot condone sexual activity between two men, this is far from saying your love isn’t real or true.

 

[PutresOmega]

I don’t think “most” is accurate anymore…there is a much greater understanding of the nature of the attraction and the sincerity of commitment that many homosexual couples experience.

By extension, I believe many people also understand the desire to pleasure, and be pleasured by, a “beloved”. But Catholics (at least) believe that sex is about more than pleasuring between people who love each other and are committed to each other. It is misused and broken when attempted between persons of the same sex.

If not most than still many. Catholic1954 and grasscutter intimated this very thing in their responses above our posts to this very thread. It is something I have run into as well from some in my family and former Church brethren (eg “You don’t have to stop being friends with guys, just don’t turn the friendship sexual”). Most is a sweeping word though, so you are right, I should have said many and not lumped heterosexuals together. I apologize.

A sexual union between spouses is about procreation and the joining of two on a spiritual level, as I understand Theology of the Body and the Church teachings. As I understand it, a homosexual union is primarily problematic due to the lack of complimentarity (it is not open to life, but I consider the complimentarity the primary argument because the Church does not forbid sterile couples from sexual intercourse).

Complimentarity has little basis in Scripture beyond a handful of lines from Genesis and the writings of Paul. It finds most of it’s support in the Aristotelian philosophy of monism of the body and soul. The Church’s arguments for this supposed monism are not convincing. If the body and soul are inseparable to such a degree then prayers for the intercession of Saints would not be possible as the bodies of many of them rot in the ground. Besides the logical failings of this theological concept, I find the concept of complimentarity as laid out by John Paul II and later Catholic theologians to be a revolting theology that places the spirit as subservient to the flesh. It elevates creation to the same level as the creator and comes dangerously close to idolatry.

I have rejected Theology of the Body as uninspired error as a result of these discrepancies.

…homosexual acts are not real love.

Sex is not love in and of itself but what the OP mentions seems just as real and selfless a love as any heterosexual persons experience of it.

But heaven and hell are forever.

Or does it, instead, put both of them in spiritual jeopardy?

Encouraging or enabling someone you love to possibly remain in a state of sin and jeopardise their salvation is, for a Christian, far more unloving than the temporary pain of calling them out on their behaviour and giving them at least the chance to change.

I can’t speak for the OP but I find these sorts of responses completely baffling. Maybe it is because I had an abusive step dad but I don’t understand how such arguments are supposed to sway people. If anything, threatening me with violence if I don’t capitulate to your unreasonable demands and using threats of eternal violence to attempt to coerce me into compliance does nothing but drive me to rebel against your side and see it as evil. What is the appeal of spending eternity with a being that gets creatures to “love” him by threatening them with eternal violence if they don’t abide arbitrary rules? I’d choose an eternity in hell over prostrating myself before an evil like that.

 

[sw85]

I can’t speak for the OP but I find these sorts of responses completely baffling. Maybe it is because I had an abusive step dad but I don’t understand how such arguments are supposed to sway people. If anything, threatening me with violence if I don’t capitulate to your unreasonable demands and using threats of eternal violence to attempt to coerce me into compliance does nothing but drive me to rebel against your side and see it as evil. What is the appeal of spending eternity with a being that gets creatures to “love” him by threatening them with eternal violence if they don’t abide arbitrary rules? I’d choose an eternity in hell over prostrating myself before an evil like that.

But neither those people nor God are threatening you with violence, any more than the car manufacturer’s instruction to change the oil every 3,000 miles to avoid engine failure is a threat on their part to inflict damage on your car. These people are not threatening you, they are pleading with you to listen to the manufacturer’s instructions and change the oil in your car, for your own good!

God designed the world. He designed you, and me. He didn’t do so randomly or arbitrarily but according to a specific set of goods, ones written into human nature itself. Since your good is bound up with your own nature, a rejection of your nature means a rejection of your own good. That’s not a punishment so much as it’s simply a fact of reality, and refusal to deal with and live in reality is psychotic.

When you say you’d choose an eternity in hell over worshipping an “evil” like that – a being who made you and loves you and redeemed you, personally, at great personal expense, as you are, simply because of that love! – do you even understand what you’re saying? Do you even understand what “evil” is? What can be evil except by reference to good, the eternal good which God is? By what standard are you presuming to judge God here?

 

[salvemater]

I understand and sympathize that this issue may cause great emotional turmoil for you. I, for one, wouldn’t want to be in your situation. But honestly ask yourself the question: is your relationship with living in a state of sin?

To love someone is do what’s best for them. That’s why the Church teaches that the Sacrament of Matrimony (it is a Sacrament) exists, in part, as a means for one person to fight for the salvation of their spouse.

Nothing in this world, absolutely nothing, matters at the end of the day, because all will perish except the last four things (death, judgement, heaven and hell.)

Is a temporary moment of emotional pain worth risking the eternal fate of your soul, and the soul of your partner? Is it worth protecting his emotions by keeping the truth from him, if it means that he may be subjected to damnation?

I don’t mean to use bold language to declare judgement, but I do want to express how dire such a situation is.

The Christian life is one of sacrifice. We fight our desires and temptations, even when it causes us pain, because we love God and seek to do what is right.
Doing what’s right doesn’t always feel good. In fact, many times it won’t feel good. But that’s why Jesus says, “take up your cross daily and follow me.” We are supposed to do what’s right, even when it causes us to suffer. That’s how love is truly measured.

What’s best for your partner is not that you try to shield him from heartbreak; what’s best is that you tell him the truth about Christianity and be there to encourage him through your sacrifice and chastity. And if he rejects what you say, then that is unfortunately the price you have to pay. But it is better to try to save his soul out of love and fail than to do nothing and continue living in sin.

There is only one true Church, and that is the Church established by Jesus Christ upon the rock of Peter: the Catholic Church. We cannot depart from that, even if it causes us pain. It is the Catholic Church alone that God left on Earth to fight for the salvation of souls, and it is this Church we must be obedient to and live within.
Ask yourself this question, and truly hold yourself to intellectual honesty: if you leave one religion and choose another because it is more in line with your way of thinking, isn’t that simply creating your own religion? And how can a religion be correct if it comes from you?

Our passions are certainly a powerful thing. But they are not always holy. Don’t confuse emotions for spiritual longings. Our passions can very easily lead us to sin, and it is the number one tool that the devil uses against us.

The Catechism states:
“Strong feelings are not decisive for the morality or the holiness of persons; they are simply the inexhaustible reservoir of images and affections in which the moral life is expressed. Passions are morally good when they contribute to a good action, evil in the opposite case. The upright will orders the movements of the senses it appropriates to the good and to beatitude; an evil will succumbs to disordered passions and exacerbates them. Emotions and feelings can be taken up into the virtues or perverted by the vices.” 1768

Additionally:
“Emotions and feelings can be taken up in the virtues or perverted by the vices.” 1774

Look past your emotions and ask yourself truly: what would God want me to do?

 

[salvemater]

Please watch this video:

vimeo.com/93079367

You’re not alone. There are other people out there struggling with same-sex attractions like you, and they had partners as well. Your home is the Catholic Church, and we will never reject you. You were created for heaven.

But we must implore that you do the right thing. It is our responsibility that we say this to you out of love. And there are many people with same-sex attractions, like those in the video, who will tell you the same thing.

God bless, and I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[sw85]

Thank you for your responses. It is something I will continue to think and pray about, however, I can see the probable outcome. Being told that your love isn’t real or true hurts. Knowing my partner, if I were to leave him it would make him resentful of the church, it’s unlikely to lead him to God unless by divine grace.

I know the rules of the church and yet I know of priests and bishops who will preach one thing and then do another (Keith O’Brien being one such example). That doesn’t make things easier.

I guess this is something I will need to talk to about in some depth with my confessor.

Heathcliff, it was said earlier that the love which matters, the love we are called to exhibit, is not merely an emotional love but a volitional one as well. This is important. Christ himself said that “no greater love has a man than this, to lay down his life for his friends.”

A man’s love for his wife is certainly emotional, and emotions are real. But the love which is to be put to his credit in eternity is not feelings, passions over which he has at best indirect control. (What a barbarous religion this would be if we were judged on the basis of our feelings!) It is based on the love we do. A man’s emotional love for his wife is good precisely because it entails him to pursue and enact that volitional love, to work and sacrifice and suffer for her own good, to put her good on par with or even above his own. The emotional love is good insofar as it makes it possible for him to rejoice in loving her volitionally. It is not an end in itself.

The love we are called to have for others, the love we mean when we say “God is love” or “God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son,” is much less like the passionate, desirous love of a man for his wife than it is like the soldier who throws his own body on a grenade in order to protect his squadmates. That is just what Chris did for us. That is what you are called to do, that is the love on which you will be judged, and if you do not do that then whatever other kind of “love” you have is like straw.

You say if you leave your partner, then he will not convert. I propose that he will almost certainly not convert if you continue to scandalize him by remaining in an illicit, actively sexual relationship with him. And I propose that if your leaving seals his refusal to convert, then at least it can be said that his refusal is not in any way on your conscience. You are responsible before God for your own behavior first and foremost, not that of others.

 

[Petaro]

Thank you for your responses. It is something I will continue to think and pray about, however, I can see the probable outcome. Being told that your love isn’t real or true hurts. Knowing my partner, if I were to leave him it would make him resentful of the church, it’s unlikely to lead him to God unless by divine grace.

I know the rules of the church and yet I know of priests and bishops who will preach one thing and then do another (Keith O’Brien being one such example). That doesn’t make things easier.

I guess this is something I will need to talk to about in some depth with my confessor.

I wish all the very best for you and your partner. Do not believe that Catholics believe that you do not somehow truly love your partner as I love my wife. That is not so, and that is why the quandary you find yourself is so real to all of us. What would I do if I truly loved a divorcee? I would hope that I would have the courage that many of us are expecting of you, but where are your shoes that I might walk in them? May your wise priest have the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to guide you. You are in my prayers for the little they are worth.

 

[PutresOmega]

But neither those … your own good!

They have not made a very good case. Nothing I haven’t been able to rebut or argue against and nothing that rests well with my conscience. You may feel strongly you are right but what you are saying is reality and what the evidence tells me is reality don’t appear to overlap on this point. As an aside to you: your approach here makes your concept of God seem like a sort of “I am not threatening you but accidents happen” mafia hit man and is just as unappealing if not more so than the vague or more overt threats. If evangelizing in the future, I would avoid this.

God designed the … reality is psychotic.

I would agree in so far as I know my nature much better than those who would seek to define me in their narrow definitions and behavior based view of human experience. I feel the Church is asking me and those like me to live outside of my inherent nature based off of a faulty theology which I have rebutted above in part is not particularly convincing.

When you say … judge God here?

Purely hyperbolic, as I don’t believe your view of God to be a fully accurate one. If I did I would dedicate my life to fighting him. My stepfather provided for me as well but still beat me unconscious here and there and never missed a chance to tell me what a burden I was, how thankful I should be for his paying the bills, and how worthless I was compared to him. You will forgive me if I don’t kowtow to the idea that because God created everything he can be an abusive, selfish, vindictive cretin and expect me not to call him on it. Ironically, bowing to that being only to save myself from hell would be selfish and that sort of selfishness just isn’t in my nature. Not because I am such a great guy but because I know the kind of pain it causes, intimately.

So, yes, I will continue to stand in judgement of your God by merit of my free will and functioning conscience. If he doesn’t like it then that is tough. I won’t abide evil, even from Him. Let him throw me into the lake of fire and prove me right if he so wishes.

 

[Rau]

…
Complimentarity has little basis in Scripture beyond a handful of lines from Genesis and the writings of Paul.

How much of a basis does it require for you not to discard it? Are you saying you would reject same sex genital acts if there were more on-point statements in Scripture?

 

[on_the_hill]

any more than the car manufacturer’s instruction to change the oil every 3,000 miles to avoid engine failure

Oh, brother. First I get it from my wife, then from CAF.

I’ll do it tomorrow night after work! I promise!

 

[on_the_hill]

A man’s emotional love for his wife is good precisely because it entails him to pursue and enact that volitional love, to work and sacrifice and suffer for her own good, to put her good on par with or even above his own. The emotional love is good insofar as it makes it possible for him to rejoice in loving her volitionally. It is not an end in itself.

I don’t disagree. What is it that makes this kind of love impossible for people other than man and wife?

 

[sw85]

I don’t disagree. What is it that makes this kind of love impossible for people other than man and wife?

Do you mean volitional love (“charity”)? But ordinary people exercise charity all the time – when they pray for others, when they give alms, when they volunteer to help those in need, etc. etc.

 

[sw85]

So, yes, I will continue to stand in judgement of your God by merit of my free will and functioning conscience. If he doesn’t like it then that is tough. I won’t abide evil, even from Him. Let him throw me into the lake of fire and prove me right if he so wishes.

I might once again ask what in the world you think “evil” even means if you think it is a concept that can be meaningfully applied, even in theory, to God, and where the standard of good that is its converse comes from, if not from Him; but it is clear (by your own admission) that you are not trying to think about any of this in rational terms. So please rest assured of my prayers that you are some day able to heal from the harm done to you.

 

[on_the_hill]

Do you mean volitional love (“charity”)? But ordinary people exercise charity all the time – when they pray for others, when they give alms, when they volunteer to help those in need, etc. etc.

That kind of gets to my question.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Could you join the Church of England? They would be more welcoming. If you stay in the CC you would have to hide your relationship, and that would be stressful. Better to join another church.

Isn’t it best to discern how Christ calls us to live and to try to live that way? What you suggest sounds like just find a church that agrees with how you want to live–that sounds backwards to me.

I think we need to try and discern the truth and where that resides–then we need to attempt as best we can to live that truth. The Church we should attend is the Church we believe holds the truth.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[boomerang]

Isn’t it best to discern how Christ calls us to live and to try to live that way? What you suggest sounds like just find a church that agrees with how you want to live–that sounds backwards to me.

I think we need to try and discern the truth and where that resides–then we need to attempt as best we can to live that truth. The Church we should attend is the Church we believe holds the truth.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Yes, we ideally should always try to follow the truth and do what God wills for us. But the reality is, people are habitual sinners. When their sins run afoul of the Catholic Church, they usually just end up leaving, and either going to another church, or even worse, they quit believing in God altogether. I’d rather the OP have the former, and not the latter.

 

[manualman]

The best lies are the ones that are mostly true. In the same way, the most dangerous of bad philosophies are also mostly true.

This is the case here. Gay people have historically experienced unjust and hurtful rejection as whole persons and been expected to just shut up and suffer quietly where the rest of us don’t have to listen. That’s hardly how Jesus would treat a man attracted to other men. It’s certainly not how Jesus treated women who sold their bodies to men!

On the Christian side here, we really need to beware the siren song of scapegoatism. Face it, it’s really handy to have sins around that we aren’t personally inclined to. We can cluck and shake our heads about how depraved THOSE people are and since we aren’t even INTERESTED in that sin, we feel so terribly righteous. Bad plan, don’t do it.

Much of the success of the gay activists in recent decades can be laid at the feet of flaws and injustices on the part of heterosexuals for decades (maybe centuries). The genius lie of the LGBT activist is to assert that Christianity has declared that the entirety of the relationship between two gay men (for example) is utterly evil and abhorrent. Since the lived experience of said two gay men is glaringly at odds with that pronouncement, they reject Christianity in particular and God in general (seen right here in this thread). But Christianity says no such thing. The Agape and Philia aspects of a gay relationship are at least as valuable as those aspects in a marriage relationship. Nothing about that is evil or harmful. Where same sex relationships go off the tracks is in a broken understanding of Eros disconnected from the conjugal meaning of marriage. Sexual intimacy that is by nature or intent divorced from fertility is like an unbalanced machine. It tends to fly apart. God doesn’t need to smite the sodomite (or the contraceptor), the sin creates its own punishment. The OP may not believe this yet, but sexually active gay people have sky high rates of depression, suicide, drug abuse, domestic violence, infidelity and other self-destructive behaviors. This is documentable fact that is generally explained away as resulting from societal disapproval and oppression. As society openly embraces homosexual actions and increasingly despises Christians, I suppose we shall see if that assertion is true or if gay people just like having a scapegoat too.

 

[KindredSoul]

I have stepped away from the Church but not left it. I do not attend Mass physically, nor do I partake of the Eucharist. While I am convinced the Church is wrong about homosexuality and LGBT issues, generally, many died for these Sacred Traditions and I am not so arrogant to superimpose myself onto them or partake of them while I am in violation of the rules as they currently stand. What you have admitted here makes you latae excommunicated just as I am. You may not have to cease going to Church. How do the parisioners of your Church react to you and your situation? Keeping the community might be possible. For me, it would cause discomfort and scandal so I walked away but you may not have to. I would urge you to stop taking Eucharist though.

I just want to say that, although we apparently disagree on whether the Church is infallible, I have a ton of respect for you. Your post earlier about what you think of the orthodox conception of God was disturbing to me–not because YOU are disturbing, but because that kind of thing is always like hearing someone insult my beloved parent, which I hope you will understand even if we disagree–but here you’ve made a profoundly good impression. I don’t say that because you should care what impression you make on a random internet guy, I just say it because it’s true.

I believe that you are doing what so few dissenting Catholics do: You are dissenting in a truly respectful manner, by respecting the Church’s boundaries and such. You don’t agree with the Church, yet you respect that the Church has the right to teach as She does and to require assent to those teachings before one can partake of the sacraments. I just think that’s really courageous and honest of you to not disrespect the Church or dismiss Her disciplines, even as you vehemently disagree with Her. I’m not exaggerating, in fact, when I say I’m touched by it. That’s not sarcasm, it’s not hyperbole, it’s just truth. Sorry to ramble, or be all expressive, but I guess it’s because I’m so genuinely taken off guard by it: I’ve just never personally witnessed anyone else like this before: Most people I’ve encountered in similar shoes, if they decide the Church is wrong, decide the Church has no right to govern Herself and take whatever sacraments they want despite their dissent…

Thank you for your witness and humility. I don’t know about the mind of God, but may I say I certainly hope and pray that–no matter whose conception of Him is correct–He will look favorably upon you for it and reward it openly. Not that you’re doing it for any reward, but just because… I also hope one day you can resume going to Mass, perhaps at a parish where your fellow parishioners can respect this same uprightness of character that I see here, even if they disagree with your dissent.

Okay, random and surprising (even to me) sentimental outburst over… I blame sympathy hormones from my wife’s pregnancy. Yeah, that’s it.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul