"time to sack trendy bishops and restore the faith "

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Hm.

“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
St. John Chrysostom (c. 347 - 407), Bishop and Doctor of the Church
Generally considered the most prominent doctor of the Greek Church and (certainly one of) the greatest preacher(s) ever heard in a Christian pulpit.

“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
St. John Eudes (1601 - 1608), Priest and founder of the Congregation of Our Lady of Charity.

So, how much changed in 13 centuries?
Or in the last four since then?

Not much. But then gasoline was added to the fire.

Is this to say that this is all bishops - a resounding ‘NO’. Perhaps those, however, by whose antics are misleading and even scandalizing the Faithful. Those who obfuscate the pristine Faith. Eucharistic theology of Thomas Aquinas reduced to a ‘meal’. Reducing churches to houses for a ‘family’. Those who preach only about the God proximate without preaching about the God transcendent and omnipotent - omniscient - omnipresent.

Those who permit us to think God is lucky to have us rather than the other way around. Those who do not preach that there is no crown without the cross. Those who fail to lead souls to Heaven by preaching the immutable truths about the realities of sin and Satan; about Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.

Perhaps it is a bishop who confers the Sacrament of Confirmation as if it were a night club act instead of insisting upon Christian accontability of the young men and women.
Confirmation imparts:
•an increase of sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”;
•a special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
•an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.
I am certain that you’ve been to a Confirmation where THIS was explained.

God is peppy, makes you feel good. Look at the songs we sing at Mass - music in the diocese must be approved by the bishop - in verse 4 of a ‘pop’ entrance song (can’t dignify it by calling it a hymn), we sing as Pelagian heretics. The songs all about us instead of Him.

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“The smoke of Satan has entered the Church!”
Pope Paul VI (Giovanni Battista Montini, 1897 - 1978)

An interesting little bit from a couple of years ago…
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Virgilio-Card.-Noe-on-The-Smoke-of-Satan-.html&Itemid=127

“Say the black, do the red.” Many of our bishops fail to do this. “Redemptoris Sacramentum” is an ‘option’. And lack of unity with the Congregation(s)/Holy See connotes disunity in the Church. I have been in dioceses throughout the U.S. where I have been absolutely shocked as to the shenanigans during Mass. Absolutely illicit; sometimes scarcely valid. And the bishop is responsible for cleaning this up.

“The Desolate City” by Anne Roche Muggeridge is a ‘must-read’ to understand what the bishops did to us in the years following Vatican II.

All of this in the name of “the ‘spirit of Vatican II’”. Where is that mentioned in a Church document anywhere? Who coined that expression, and what does that mean? Upon further reflection, It seems to be drivel to justify ‘anything goes’.

Those of us old enough have witnessed the dissolution (read ‘martyrdom’) of everything we once knew and loved as Catholics in days long past. Sanctuaries gutted and ugliness in its place. Where is Palestrina when we REALLY need him to save (Church) music?
Gregorian Chant is to have ‘pride of place’ in our liturgies (cf. Chapter VI of Sacrosanctum Concilium). When was the last time YOU heard one? Go ahead, think about it. I’ll wait.

Desacralization is rampant; sad to say, many of our bishops have stood idly by and allowed this to happen - heck, some actually encouraged it.

And here’s the rub -

So much rubbish has entered the liturgy from all the bishops who want to be ‘hip’, instead of the shepherd of souls and the principal liturgist of the diocese.

One cannot help but hearken back to the Papal Mass of Benedict XVI in Yankee Stadium and watch one remove mitre and put on a Yankee baseball cap. Befitting the dignity of the office.

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One soul in this thread rightly mentioned that many souls have been brought into the Church under our present bishops; and this is heartening. But what did we really bring them into? The pristine Faith, or one diluted, or distored and almost unrecognizable? Have we brought them into the maw of denying the fullness of truth and/or that which (in some instances) resembles mainstream protestantism? We used to profess our Catholic identity with a holy pride; now we mumble. Our bishops have to lead us with courage instead of detente with the lukewarm.

The #1 religion in the U.S. is Catholicism. #2? Lapsed Catholics. Why? Hm.

+++

I was upbraided once. “We do not call it CCD any more, we call it 'Family Catechesis”, the front-office informed me curtly. What is wrong with the ‘Confraternity of Christian Doctrine’?
I got even.
When asked what the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:1-3) were, Billy responded:
“sapientia, intellectus, scientia, fortitudo, consilium, pietas, timor Domini”
Good lad.

Father cringed (the bishop was otherwise employed and could not administer the Sacrament). May God forgive my pride, but I was trying to make a point)

All of this fruit at the hands of the (some) bishops.

Pray for our bishops and priests. Pray for the Faithful. Pray for the ‘reform of the Reform’.
Pray, pray, pray.

Matthew 3:3
 
The Borgia Papacy - the Renaissance Papacy. One must understand that if one wished to excell and achieve during this era, one of the most prudent ways was to become a churchman and advance as fast and expediently as possible, often utilizing unethical and immoral methods (Machiavelli principal). Remember, there was no separation of church and state at the time. In most cases, these high churchmen were not exemplary members of the clergy but rather ambitious politicians seeking power, titles, riches and all material pleasures life had at that time to offer. Simony, usury, murder, conspiracy, evil intriege, adultery and fornication; you name it. The Seven Deadly Sins were their epithet. Those who finally achieved the ultimate goal, the papacy, were there because they were hungry for authority and the opportunity to become king and had supporters of like mind. Some of the worse offenders were: The would be king, Pope John XII ; Benedict IX (14 year old whose title was purchased for him by plotters); Boniface VIII, the last great papal monarch and true Roman Emperor; Urban VI who almost destroyed the papacy by moving the seat to Avignon and precipitated a schism; Alexander VI - The Borgia Bull - first to openly admit he fathered children and was one of the wealthest cardinals at the conclave that elected him. He was elected probably because he had so much to offer those who supported him; it has never been proven that he bought the tiara through bribes, threats, etc.; Leo X - Pope during the high Renaissance. Perhaps he was too aggressive in acquiring funds for the beautification of sacrfed edifices, but we must give all the Renaissance popes credit for preserving and further enhancing the beauty that the artists, through their God given talents, contributed to this era. Much of their money was ill-begotten, yes, but much also went to the honor and glory of Almighty God. Pope Clement VII, who was a bastard child of the all powerful and influencial Medici family is my final example. He inherited the rift between Henry VIII and the question of annulment/divorce. Clement, who avoided serious decisions, vacillated over Henry’s divorce request because, well there had always seemed to be a “because” where this pope was concerned, Clement wanted to please Henry because of his staunch defending of the faith against Luther. As a result,the church suffered one of its greatest breaches and the stop-gap Council of Trent was too little too late.
We must remember at the time the Vicar of Christ and the papal monarch were two distinct beings. One could not be reduced in size without reducing the other. That was the paradox of papal power facing these pontiffs. The papacy had temporal power as long as the greater powers of Europe acknowledged its spiritual supremacy.
The Renaissance popes should not be judged too harshly; the paradigm that only through the church could a non-military man make any kind of career was of epoch concern. AND, through the graces of the Holy Ghost, no irreparable damages were done to the chuirch’s dogmas and teachings. Christianity was preserved abeit only tenuously.
 
To TPW post #38;

I have to comment; when you quote these numbers I think we must ask ourselves “what are these new Catholics being taught?”. I am familiar with RCIA and have been a CCD teacher (or as another poster said, “Color, Cut, Decorate”.) for a few years. The materials we were required to work with were weak and shallow with no substance. Recently friends of mine made it through RCIA taught by some VERY modern Benedictine sisters. If it had not been for a few of their Trad friends they would never have survived the ordeal.

So in my humble opinion shear numbers mean nothing. What do these new Catholic really know? And believe.
 
Either identify with Christ…".Behold, the eyes of the servant fixed upon the hands of the master…so too our eyes upon the Lord our God" or identify with self interests, which is a waste of time.
Christ will build the Church and trust no one who directs you away from focusing on Christ. Be lead by the spirit, learn the word, watch your life, pray listen hear and obey.God will teach you if only you let him.
As for the Bishops, “Judge no one least you be judged equally” focus on Christ and building up the Church ( each other) Fingerpointing,no matter how right, is still fingerpointing. There is nothing Christ cannot overcome so let’s practice our faith, letting him work thru us, not us pretending to be him in judgement.Place your heart down for those who persecute us so as to soften their step and when you do you will witness him, not you, at work.
May God Bless You and Guide You Always
 
Faith_First said:
Either identify with Christ…".Behold, the eyes of the servant fixed upon the hands of the master…so too our eyes upon the Lord our God" or identify with self interests, which is a waste of time.
Christ will build the Church and trust no one who directs you away from focusing on Christ. Be lead by the spirit, learn the word, watch your life, pray listen hear and obey.God will teach you if only you let him.
As for the Bishops, “Judge no one least you be judged equally” focus on Christ and building up the Church ( each other) Fingerpointing,no matter how right, is still fingerpointing. There is nothing Christ cannot overcome so let’s practice our faith, letting him work thru us, not us pretending to be him in judgement.Place your heart down for those who persecute us so as to soften their step and when you do you will witness him, not you, at work.
May God Bless You and Guide You Always
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24th Chapter of the Gospel of Saint Mathew;

1 And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. 3 And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? 4 And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

6 And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. 15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
 
Layman said:
I did like this phrase:

“… pseudo-ethnic mitres and polyester vestments with faux-naïve Christian symbols, spouting their ecumaniac episcobabble …”

Faux-naive Christian symbols sounds about right. I remember being slightly disgusted with the illustrations in the New Testament we had as kids in the 70’s. You had these faceless line-drawings in it. Almost meaningless. Inhuman, in fact.

You rarely hear a sermon these days that wakes you up out of your daydream. “Community-Love-Justice-Peace…” annnnnd you’re back in a trance.
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if you’re in new orleans la go to st anthony of padua and listen to a sermon by fr. jairo sandoval, OP. he is a truly inspirational priest long sermons but extraordinarily good.
 
Here’s a quote from a priest at an O.F. Mass I went to:

“Well, I think I’ve got about 15 years left. I’m 55 years old now, so another 15 good years, if the Lord spares me …” Woke people up a bit. Reminder of one’s mortality and all that.

Hear some good stuff at E.F. Masses, but I’m afraid I tend to tune out when the priest goes to the ambo.
 
tpw said:
Interesting fact…According to the North American Forum for the Catechumenate approximately 124,000 adults were either baptized or entered into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church in 1998. The figures I’m told are fairly constant beginning 1988 when the RCIA was introduced…

Let’s see if we do the math…124,000 x 22 = 2,736,888 people have entered the Catholic Church in the last 22 years…and that’s when many of your “so-called” trendy bishops were serving…

That’s during a time of so-called “turmoil”…I certainly don’t see this as an argument “return” to the traditional church…when in fact the tradition is alive and well, thank you…
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How many have left the Church in the same time span? Especially in countries such as Mexico,Ireland and the Philippines, three countries that were once almost exclusively Catholic? Protestants and other groups are luring away thousands if not millions of Catholics yearly in those countries and others as well. Gaining 124,00 a year doesn’t seem to be a lot when faced with the mass defection that is taking place.

How many of those that have entered the Church have even an average knowledge of what the Catholic Faith is, what it teaches and what it believes in? More than that, has RCIA incresed the average Catholics understanding of the Faith? Based on what I have seen on these forums actual understanding of the faith and it’s teachings seems to be pretty well below average.
 
fish90 said:
Don’t forget that there must be proper respect to be paid to all bishops.
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I agree. But that also reminds me: what is the typical salary of a diocesian bishop? I hope that this is not too irrelevant.
 
Young_Thinker said:
I agree. But that also reminds me: what is the typical salary of a diocesian bishop? I hope that this is not too irrelevant.
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I’m not sure if this is true across the board, but I know of at least one diocesan bishop that doesn’t receive any salary. His expenses are paid for from the diocesan budget, but that’s it.

Noone becomes a bishop in order to be wealthy.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I’m not sure if this is true across the board, but I know of at least one diocesan bishop that doesn’t receive any salary. His expenses are paid for from the diocesan budget, but that’s it.

Noone becomes a bishop in order to be wealthy.
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Thank you. Obviously, your last statement is true; if one wants to be a highly-paid intellectual who helps people as a significant part of his profession, become a surgeon, not a priest.
 
Young_Thinker said:
Thank you. Obviously, your last statement is true; if one wants to be a highly-paid intellectual who helps people as a significant part of his profession, become a surgeon, not a priest.
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Well, that use to be the case now the surgeon will be in the same category of income as the bishop once Obama’s Heath care program cuts in. Ask Dr.s in England, Canada, India etc.😦
 
dcastlen50 said:
Well, that use to be the case now the surgeon will be in the same category of income as the bishop once Obama’s Heath care program cuts in. Ask Dr.s in England, Canada, India etc.😦
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That is probably true.
 
My experience with the RCIA and the materials I’ve used are quite in keeping with the tradition. St. Anthony Messenger published excellent materials which I used in the RCIA. Frankly, I think many of the people who went through the RCIA know MORE about their faith than many who sit in the pews.

It also occurs to me that growing in one’s faith is the point of the spiritual life. Those in the RCIA are actively encouraged to do exactly that - grow. In fact I always told those who I was privileged to walk with that the RCIA must be seen as only the beginning of the long journey of faith.

Just like you and me are encouraged to do - grow - always seeking…always willing to be led deeper and deeper.
 
The fact is after Vatican II there were no catechetical materials which reflected a changing Catholic understanding of mission and purpose. Yes, alot of the educational materials in the late 1960’s, 1970’s and reven the early 1980’s were not the best. It’s been a learning curve.

We realized how little value a question-answer catechesis was for really indoctrinating in the faith. If it was so good - how to explain how all those good Germans and Austrian Catholics who supported Hitler - despite a couple of encyclicals written during the late 1930’s and early 1940’s?

A Q & A approach to catechesis has some value - but it doesn’t lead to thoughtful and reflective adults which is one of the things the council was all about. And that’s where we’re moving now.

Has it been perfect? Umm…no…not at all. Just as the Baltimore Catechism approach was far from perfect.

Many of those Catholics who’ve fallen away were either raised with a Q & A approach and found it wanting or who were not well-catechized in the aftermath of the council simply because sufficient catechetical materials had not been developed.

John Paul II called for us to go deeper …not maintain some sort of superficial Catholicism which falls apart when someone is questioned more deeply.
 
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