Timeless God cannot know the current time hence cannot sustain the creation

[Bahman]

Timeless God knows all states of creation. Lets consider each state as “s”, which defines creation as a set, lets call it “S”, where “S” contains all states. “S” is basically God’s knowledge of creation. So far everything is nice. The knowledge of now however needs the existence one stamp on one “s” showing that that specific “s” represent now. The now however moves as time passes. This means that position of stamp is subjected to change hence timeless God cannot know the current time. We only experience very now which means God needs to sustains now differently from past and future since “S” is actual in God perspective. This means that God needs to have a knowledge now which is impossible as it was discussed hence God cannot sustain creation.

 

[Bookcat]

If I went into a Math class and started discussing questions as if numbers were colors and as it was an art course - the instructor would tell me that this is Math and not Art. And if I kept just asking again and again the same questions - treating numbers as if they were colors and Math as if where painting - he would say again that I need to approach the subject that is up for discussion not treating numbers as if they where colors. And that until I did I would not start to see the subject of Math…

Your trying to think of God as if God were a creature in time. And creation as if it were a work of art of human persons.

Your not approaching God as God.

 

[Bahman]

If I went into a Math class and started discussing questions as if numbers were colors and as it was an art course - the instructor would tell me that this is Math and not Art. And if I kept just asking again and again the same questions - treating numbers as if they were colors and Math as if where painting - he would say again that I need to approach the subject that is up for discussion not treating numbers as if they where colors. And that until I did I would not start to see the subject of Math…

Your trying to think of God as if God were a creature in time. And creation as if it were a work of art of human persons.

Your not approaching God as God.

You are not making an argument.

 

[Richca]

Timeless God knows all states of creation. Lets consider each state as “s”, which defines creation as a set, lets call it “S”, where “S” contains all states. “S” is basically God’s knowledge of creation. So far everything is nice. The knowledge of now however needs the existence one stamp on one “s” showing that that specific “s” represent now. The now however moves as time passes. This means that position of stamp is subjected to change hence timeless God cannot know the current time. We only experience very now which means God needs to sustains now differently from past and future since “S” is actual in God perspective. This means that God needs to have a knowledge now which is impossible as it was discussed hence God cannot sustain creation.

God knows everything we know and infinitely more. If we know what the current time is, for example, today is March 20, 2015 12:18 pm, God also knows this, for He created time as well as us and the rest of creation.

 

[Bahman]

God knows everything we know and infinitely more. If we know what the current time is, for example, today is March 20, 2015 12:18 pm, God also knows this, for He created time as well as us and the rest of creation.

Did you read the argument?

 

[Bookcat]

You are not making an argument.

The analogy I gave of "If I went into a Math class and started discussing questions as if numbers were colors and as it was an art course - the instructor would tell me that this is Math and not Art.

And if I kept just asking again and again the same questions - treating numbers as if they were colors and Math as if where painting - he would say* again *that I need to approach the subject that is up for discussion not treating numbers as if they where colors.

And that until I did I would not start to see the subject of Math…"

Is important to reflect upon. For by starting with premises drawn from thinking of God as yourself in time or the like - one will not get very far but will end up with wrong conclusions.

You have to approach God as God.

Not as a* creature*.

 

[CompSciGuy]

God, being an infinite God, sees all of time at once. Past, present, and future. He sustains all of creation at every moment in past, present, and future. One big “NOW” so to speak. Since God is outside of time, the question of what moment is “now” is irrelevant to Him.

 

[CompSciGuy]

The now however moves as time passes.

According to us, since we are not outside of time. Since God is outside of time, he can see all time at once.

This means that position of stamp is subjected to change hence timeless God cannot know the current time.

The concept of “current time” is irrelevant to one who is outside of time. If God sustains the past, present and future, then the only significance of little ‘s’ is that it is all that we are currently capable of seeing as beings within time. To God, our little ‘s’ is treated no differently than the little ‘s’ of the 14th century. God sustains both of them.

We only experience very now which means God needs to sustains now differently from past and future since “S” is actual in God perspective.

Why does God need to sustain now differently than yesterday?

This means that God needs to have a knowledge now which is impossible as it was discussed hence God cannot sustain creation.

Not only is your premise flawed, but your conclusion also doesn’t necessarily follow from it…

 

[Brendan]

This means that position of stamp is subjected to change hence timeless God cannot know the current time

Why does that logically follow? Why does knowledge of a subset ‘S’ imply that one is a member of the subset ‘S’.

 

[Beryllos]

You are not making an argument.

Did you read the argument?

This is not an argument, but merely an observation that Bahman has posted many threads arguing that God cannot do one thing or another. Why is that?

 

[CommonWeal]

Timeless God knows all states of creation.

TRUE.

Lets consider each state as “s”,

I’m with you…

which defines creation as a set,

You lost me. Please rephrase.

 

[hasantas]

Timeless God knows all states of creation. Lets consider each state as “s”, which defines creation as a set, lets call it “S”, where “S” contains all states. “S” is basically God’s knowledge of creation. So far everything is nice. The knowledge of now however needs the existence one stamp on one “s” showing that that specific “s” represent now. The now however moves as time passes. This means that position of stamp is subjected to change hence timeless God cannot know the current time. We only experience very now which means God needs to sustains now differently from past and future since “S” is actual in God perspective. This means that God needs to have a knowledge now which is impossible as it was discussed hence God cannot sustain creation.

Your argument is valid only for you. Is there any logical resource for that?

I read your argument but I cannot copmrehend what exactly you mean. But I will tell about how God create and know everything.

Every entity has two existence(as timely). One existence is in eternal wisdom of God which God does not create yet. That existence is not material but has a moral existence in knowledge of God.

The second existence is material and that existence has a material existence just in now. When now finish then that existence finish too. (And the creating is being done by power of God. So God always know what He does. ) But that existence has a moral figure in eternal wisdom of God as eternally. So it is very pointless to say that god cannot know the now.

 

[Lion_IRC]

[SIGN][/SIGN]I don’t even understand (let alone accept) the claim that omnipotent God is metaphysically bound or required to be either in time or outside “time”.

Surely He can pick and choose whether and when to be immanent and in what form.

Isn’t that a fundamental aspect of biblical theism and theology? That God and His amazing Grace can be as near or as far from us (in space/time) as our reciprocal love allows?

 

[Rhubarb]

Well, someone could deny that A-facts, like questions about when “now” is and what came “before” or “after” exist - they’re just all tenseless B-facts. A B-Theorist doesn’t have to go far to explain away the problem. There are other foundational things in the philosophy of time that also could answer this.

 

[Bahman]

The analogy I gave of "If I went into a Math class and started discussing questions as if numbers were colors and as it was an art course - the instructor would tell me that this is Math and not Art.

And if I kept just asking again and again the same questions - treating numbers as if they were colors and Math as if where painting - he would say* again *that I need to approach the subject that is up for discussion not treating numbers as if they where colors.

And that until I did I would not start to see the subject of Math…"

Is important to reflect upon. For by starting with premises drawn from thinking of God as yourself in time or the like - one will not get very far but will end up with wrong conclusions.

You have to approach God as God.

Knowledge of now brings subjectivity over time. Timeless God cannot be timeless and has the knowledge of now. This is the result a tension between timeless state and time-bound state that you cannot resolve it.
Not as a* creature*.

 

[Bahman]

God, being an infinite God, sees all of time at once. Past, present, and future. He sustains all of creation at every moment in past, present, and future. One big “NOW” so to speak. Since God is outside of time, the question of what moment is “now” is irrelevant to Him.

The question of what is now is very important. This in fact the second part of the argument. All future, past and now are actual yet we observe a different between now, past and future meaning that now should be treated differently. The knowledge of now is in fact necessary since that is God who sustains creation. In simple word, timeless God can know past, now and future but he cannot sustain creation since he doesn’t know what now is.

 

[Bahman]

According to us, since we are not outside of time. Since God is outside of time, he can see all time at once.

There is no problem with that. The problem arises from the fact that God needs to sustain now hence he needs to know now.

The concept of “current time” is irrelevant to one who is outside of time. If God sustains the past, present and future, then the only significance of little ‘s’ is that it is all that we are currently capable of seeing as beings within time. To God, our little ‘s’ is treated no differently than the little ‘s’ of the 14th century. God sustains both of them.

The concept of current time is very important for a God who sustains creation.

Why does God need to sustain now differently than yesterday?

There is a difference between now and past and future. We only experience now which means that God as sustainer must deal with now differently.

Not only is your premise flawed, but your conclusion also doesn’t necessarily follow from it…

Timeless God is a solution to the problem of omniscience but such a God cannot sustain the creation. In simple word creation has a dynamic which we are aware of it yet a timeless cannot sustain the dynamic of creation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The question of what is now is very important.

Absolutely and further its relationship to in and outside of time. So the question really becomes a conversation in regards.

This point is good also…

That existence is not material but has a moral existence in knowledge of God.

To believe in God per say then we have to believe in a interconnected consciousness thus perfecting in moral conceptional thinking thus love, love you neighbor etc.

Whats the morality of this God? Perfect no? Whats the qualification of perfect?

 

[Bahman]

TRUE.

I’m with you…

You lost me. Please rephrase.

Creation is simply a set of all states. What is wrong with this?

 

[Petaro]

Timeless God knows all states of creation. Lets consider each state as “s”, which defines creation as a set, lets call it “S”, where “S” contains all states. “S” is basically God’s knowledge of creation. So far everything is nice. The knowledge of now however needs the existence one stamp on one “s” showing that that specific “s” represent now. The now however moves as time passes. This means that position of stamp is subjected to change hence timeless God cannot know the current time. We only experience very now which means God needs to sustains now differently from past and future since “S” is actual in God perspective. This means that God needs to have a knowledge now which is impossible as it was discussed hence God cannot sustain creation.

Heavens! I am not going to be the first to tell Him!