Timelessness in heaven

[Mijoy2]

I believe that if existance outside of time is possible, it is incomprehendable. We (certainly I) cannot even consider living outside of the dimension of time.

If we get out of bed in heaven and put on our shoes, left one first, while we are putting on our right shoe, is the left one still on? If we brush our teeth, how do we know we are done? If we get a cavity is it because we didn’t brush our teeth well or because we will not brush our teeth well?

We need to include the concept of time to comprehend anything and everything. Even thought, let alone action, has a begining and an end. To exist outside of time, is a thought as foreign to us as calculus is to a turtle.

Thinking about it will cause one to go insane. Just my 2 cents.

 

[fhansen]

To exist outside of time, is a thought as foreign to us as calculus is to a turtle.

That’s true but the thought of eternal life is just as foreign, isn’t it?

 

[CentralFLJames]

So then, would-or can-time, for us, exist in eternity? Would events happen sequentially? Or does sequence even make sense in eternity?

My opinion is that time for us in eternity would be an option we could step into and out of at will. If we wanted to step into time - perhaps on a mission from God to perform a work of His in some aspect of the new Creation we simply would just “will it”. But we would still simultaneously exist outside of time through our permanent connection to the beatific vision since God would not want to seperate us from Himself nor we Him. In a sense we essentially would be living in a context of time through “dreaming” of time - but it would be in a real physical way that could elect to interact or observe with or without being noticed as we desired. We would probably prefer not to step into time though since we would have everything we wanted as a condition of existence in the “now” singularity of eternity.

Note that in current life we dream outside of time but it has side effects to us physiologically (and perhaps in other ways) in-time. This is why in a dream images often “float” motionless or we can’t move or run in our dreams. There is no time reference - just sequences that can jump rapidly from scene to scene and often completely apparently disjointed one from the other (but I believe related). But note too if we have a particularly emotional sort of dream that wakes us up our hearts are racing or we are happy or frightened etc. The dream was very real to us and has very real physical effects (no bed wetter jokes). Some say dreams are often occasioned by our soul talking to us through our intellect since it is the greater intellect and it is trying to tell us things symbolically at a spiritual level of perception. I am not up on the latest psychological thinking on the nature of dreams but think it is at least s much a spiritual phenomena as it is an intellectual phenomena.

Being linked to the eternal and divine God through the beatific vision would not necessarily transform our nature (our sinful nature would be already removed) just change the aspect of our nature that becomes predominant. In other words we would shift more toward a focus on God’s nature which is our spiritual nature. This is clearly the greater dimension of our being or God would not elect to exist in pure spiritual form.

In heaven the perfected body and mind just become tools to operate, relate and interact with in an optional physical context with other physical entities (other kindred immortal human beings or other new created physical beings that God may elect to create in a new Creation). The body also gives a place to embody the soul and a “location” or personal home that is uniquely ours and identifiably seperate from any other.

We have no idea what God has in mind for his new Creation after the Final Judgement nor if He might elect to create new beings for us to teach God to or rule over or inspire. All I know for certain that anything we can conceive is infinitely less glorious and joyful than what He intends to do; and I can imagine a lot.

James

 

[JamesG]

Can one have a choice between good an evil without time?

The concept of time might be something that we can experience at will. Perhaps in heaven we will be able to experience all possible options at the same time or one after the other in any order we want. Our choice to have a choice between good and evil is an option that must be experienced outside of God arms.

Even science is starting to talk about quantum states. Perhaps this concept is also connected to the nature of the universe and heaven.

 

[Hastrman]

I’m not so sure about that… sometimes I think the garden of eden may have been a different “dimension” or “place” or “world” or “sumpthin’”

“Most likely we are in Eden still. It is our eyes that have changed.” --G. K. Chesterton.

And yes, quantum states are related to the nature of the universe, but no, they have nothing to do (except tangentially) with heaven.

 

[JamesG]

I don’t think we are in eden. Because that place was blocked entry by God . The Bible says he placed cherubim with an omnidirectional “flaming” sword to guard against any future entrance

 

[Hastrman]

I don’t think we are in eden. Because that place was blocked entry by God . The Bible says he placed cherubim with an omnidirectional “flaming” sword to guard against any future entrance

No, we can’t go back, because we can’t recapture our original innocence that sees everything as the absolute gift it is.

If you don’t know what the quote means, why do you think you can dispute it?

The Catholic Faith has always, or at least since before Augustine, interpreted the Eden story as allegorical–other than the specific disobedience-caused-the-Fall part–since it contradicted known facts even in the 3rd Century.

 

[fhansen]

“Most likely we are in Eden still. It is our eyes that have changed.” --G. K. Chesterton.

No offense to Chesterton but the notion that the difference between Eden and our present state lies solely in our perspective means that in our original innocence we would have had no problem with disease, pain, death- the evils which presently seem to oppose our desire for good. Is a changed perspective-the lack of appreciation for God’s gifts- the only reason for life being hard? Adam & Eve would’ve been as conscious as we are of themselves and the world they lived in. If disease, corruption, death existed in Eden then they would’ve had to deal with those things. The difference would be that they still, in their innocence, trusted God that all was well. Trust and love would trump any fear of death before it took root. I’m not sure if that works. They would’ve had to trust that death did not mean non-existence, if life is the one gift which sentient beings cannot abide the loss of. And, of course, this is what makes the resurrection a central tenet of our faith. But, my question is, did our first parents really have to deal with death? Is separation from God, a separation we cannot reconcile on our own, the only real difference between Eden and here? Or did our environment change as well? The Church teaches that bodily death entered the world thru sin.

 

[CentralFLJames]

No offense to Chesterton but the notion that the difference between Eden and our present state lies solely in our perspective means that in our original innocence we would have had no problem with disease, pain, death- the evils which presently seem to oppose our desire for good. Is a changed perspective-the lack of appreciation for God’s gifts- the only reason for life being hard? Adam & Eve would’ve been as conscious as we are of themselves and the world they lived in. If disease, corruption, death existed in Eden then they would’ve had to deal with those things. The difference would be that they still, in their innocence, trusted God that all was well. Trust and love would trump any fear of death before it took root. I’m not sure if that works. They would’ve had to trust that death did not mean non-existence, if life is the one gift which sentient beings cannot abide the loss of. And, of course, this is what makes the resurrection a central tenet of our faith. But, my question is, did our first parents really have to deal with death? Is separation from God, a separation we cannot reconcile on our own, the only real difference between Eden and here? Or did our environment change as well? The Church teaches that bodily death entered the world thru sin.

Creation’s decay itself and all disease and every ill is occassioned by humanity’s original sin in Eden.

The CCC:

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 **Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.**284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain’s murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ’s atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man’s history:

James

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is going off topic. Please return to the original topic or take any side discussions to new or existing threads. Thank you all.