Tired of the same old Protesant line

[mark_a]

Hi Jm and Mark,

I am still working on my relationship with Christ as Im sure you guys are. Jesus wants us to completely trust him and how can you trust someone you dont know very well. That is why it is important to read Scripture and pray so we experience His fellowship. This is difficult to understand,I know but not impossible to have. I will pray for God to help you understand this concept.

Hello Allforhim,

I recognize your name from many other threads here. You have a good Christian charitable attitude in you posts.

I know that any lack of trust is my own miserable failure.

“Personal lord and savior” sounds like it has a certain exclusivity to it that I think Jesus never intended.

He is my lord and savior. He is your lord and savior. He is the world’s lord and savior.

Any “personalization” of my savior would come from my own interpretation and understanding of materials that are available to me. My limited human comprehension is incapable of grasping the infinite wonders of Jesus’ person.

Maybe a definition of “personal Lord and Savior” is in order.

 

[exoflare]

Hello Allforhim,

I recognize your name from many other threads here. You have a good Christian charitable attitude in you posts.

I know that any lack of trust is my own miserable failure.

“Personal lord and savior” sounds like it has a certain exclusivity to it that I think Jesus never intended.

He is my lord and savior. He is your lord and savior. He is the world’s lord and savior.

Any “personalization” of my savior would come from my own interpretation and understanding of materials that are available to me. My limited human comprehension is incapable of grasping the infinite wonders of Jesus’ person.

Maybe a definition of “personal Lord and Savior” is in order.

My friend and I have joked about this very thing… Like if there were two fundamentalists arguing with each other - “MY personal Lord and Savior…” “No, MY personal Lord and Savior!!”

 

[exoflare]

But the Protestant did point out to me that it was in the Bible. It actually does say it. Now what?

Really? Where do you find the phrase “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior”?

 

[MJ_1964]

But the Protestant did point out to me that it was in the Bible. It actually does say it. Now what?

Can you show me exactly where it says you must except Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to abtain salvation, because I could never find it as a Baptist, and I’m not finding it as a Catholic.

 

[Allweather]

I’m with mark a on this. My “personal relationship” with Jesus doesn’t include me thinking of him as my pal. I’ve gotten the feeling that some people have that sort of give and take with Jesus, as if he were a bud, like the bumper sticker that says God is my co-pilot, as if he were just there to help out where one needs help. I have a problem with this type of concept. God can meet us at our point of need; some people don’t easily carry on “personal relationships” either with God or with other people. I frankly identify more with Mary than with Jesus. Jesus is Almighty God, a very unique person, while Mary is completely human, just like me. It is so sad that Protestants ignore Mary.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hello Allforhim,

I recognize your name from many other threads here. You have a good Christian charitable attitude in you posts.

I know that any lack of trust is my own miserable failure.

“Personal lord and savior” sounds like it has a certain exclusivity to it that I think Jesus never intended.

He is my lord and savior. He is your lord and savior. He is the world’s lord and savior.

Any “personalization” of my savior would come from my own interpretation and understanding of materials that are available to me. My limited human comprehension is incapable of grasping the infinite wonders of Jesus’ person.

Maybe a definition of “personal Lord and Savior” is in order.

Hi,
HMMM, let me see if I can give a definition. I guess you could look at it like Jesus was your friend BFF(best friend forever–I know this because I have a 13 yr old daughter )
Example: My best friend(on earth)is someone I can count on when I need help or there when I am in pain or shares in my joy-you get the point. Now a human will always let you down at some point so how much more of a friend Jesus can be because He loves us unconditinally(Agape love). If we can put our trust in Him He will always be there unlike a human. When you put your trust in Him He blesses you. I have had several experiences that God has proven himself trustworthy to me. The trust comes over time. he only way to trust Him is to get to know Him and that is through studying Scripture.
Another explanation that just popped into my head(or God put it there:thumbsup: ) God guides each of us daily. He knows every hair on our head! I cant imagine but it is in the bible If He knows every hair on my head then He also knows every intimate detail of my life(that’s scary and He still loves me)God longs for us to come to Him with all of our most personal issues. I dont know about you but there are certain things no one knows about me except God. We cant hide from Him so we might as well go to Him
Sorry for the long answer. Im not sure I explained it well

 

[exoflare]

I’m with mark a on this. My “personal relationship” with Jesus doesn’t include me thinking of him as my pal. I’ve gotten the feeling that some people have that sort of give and take with Jesus, as if he were a bud, like the bumper sticker that says God is my co-pilot, as if he were just there to help out where one needs help. I have a problem with this type of concept. God can meet us at our point of need. I frankly identify more with Mary than with Jesus. Jesus is Almighty God, a very unique person, while Mary is completely human, just like me. It is so sad that Protestants ignore Mary.

Jesus is completely human, just as Mary though. But I agree with you I can relate more to her in that she was not divine.

 

[mommyof4]

Hi Jm and Mark,

I am still working on my relationship with Christ as Im sure you guys are. Jesus wants us to completely trust him and how can you trust someone you dont know very well. That is why it is important to read Scripture and pray so we experience His fellowship. This is difficult to understand,I know but not impossible to have. I will pray for God to help you understand this concept.

I don’t disagree with you. I just think that our experience in the sacraments just adds to our personal relationship with him.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t disagree with you. I just think that our experience in the sacraments just adds to our personal relationship with him.

Hi,
I think that is great!!

 

[water]

But the Protestant did point out to me that it was in the Bible. It actually does say it. Now what?

Don’t be worried! A non-catholic Christian believe that Faith alone can save them, but the Bible does not agree to that.

Tell your friend that in the Bible also says that Faith alone is not enough. Here are the verses that say Faith and Works are needed:

James 2: 17 Faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2: 18 Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will domonstrate my faith to you from my works.
James 2:19 you believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble
Rom 2: 5: By your stubornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m with mark a on this. My “personal relationship” with Jesus doesn’t include me thinking of him as my pal. I’ve gotten the feeling that some people have that sort of give and take with Jesus, as if he were a bud, like the bumper sticker that says God is my co-pilot, as if he were just there to help out where one needs help.

True. One of my favourite students pointed out one time, “If God is your co-pilot, you’re in the wrong seat.”

It’s our job to serve God; not God’s job to serve us.

 

[blessedtoo]

I have never met Jesus. If I meet him in this life, I will have a heart attack and die on the spot.

:yup: God bless you for this! I have often thought this as well! Would just drop dead on the spot!

Personal is for bankers and pan pizzas.

Thanks for two great belly laughs!!

 

[runandsew]

Every time I try and talk to a Protestant person on just about anything, it’s the same old line “Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour”? And they add, because if you do, then you will be saved. I personally know that that is too easy and although I of course do accept Him, I don’t feel I have to keep repeating that same old phrase. And what do you tell Protestants about us being Baptised, therefore that is where our Born Again comes in. they don’t believe this. One more question is they don’t believe Mary was a virgin…how does one explain any of this? Thak you.

Scott Hahn has a pretty good take on being “Born Again” in the 11th program of Our Fathers Plan, you might want to listen to it. I think that it takes the first 13 minutes of the audio program.

 

[Zooey]

Hi Jm and Mark,

I am still working on my relationship with Christ as Im sure you guys are. Jesus wants us to completely trust him and how can you trust someone you dont know very well. That is why it is important to read Scripture and pray so we experience His fellowship. This is difficult to understand,I know but not impossible to have. I will pray for God to help you understand this concept.

Good post…I think that that is where the “personal” part comes in; the fact that each of us has to be working on a relationship with Jesus.
I have heard someone say, “Of course, I’m a Christian; my grandparents belonged to this church”, & “Yes, I’m going to go to Heaven; I haven’t ever killed anybody or anything like that”, & it makes me feel sad…Because those aren’t, of course, as I’m sure we can all agree, what make the difference between someone being a genuine believer in & servant of God, as opposed to someone who may be “nice” but doesn’t believe in much of anything, & can’t be bothered with serving God…

 

[mark_a]

Hi,
HMMM, let me see if I can give a definition. I guess you could look at it like Jesus was your friend BFF(best friend forever–I know this because I have a 13 yr old daughter )
Example: My best friend(on earth)is someone I can count on when I need help or there when I am in pain or shares in my joy-you get the point. Now a human will always let you down at some point so how much more of a friend Jesus can be because He loves us unconditinally(Agape love). If we can put our trust in Him He will always be there unlike a human. When you put your trust in Him He blesses you. I have had several experiences that God has proven himself trustworthy to me. The trust comes over time. he only way to trust Him is to get to know Him and that is through studying Scripture.
Another explanation that just popped into my head(or God put it there:thumbsup: ) God guides each of us daily. He knows every hair on our head! I cant imagine but it is in the bible If He knows every hair on my head then He also knows every intimate detail of my life(that’s scary and He still loves me)God longs for us to come to Him with all of our most personal issues. I dont know about you but there are certain things no one knows about me except God. We cant hide from Him so we might as well go to Him
Sorry for the long answer. Im not sure I explained it well

Thankyou. You explained it well. Our views are not different. We have a terminology difference more than anything else.

 

[a_priori]

Can you show me exactly where it says you must except Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to abtain salvation, because I could never find it as a Baptist, and I’m not finding it as a Catholic.

I was an evangelical for 25years and we often used this verse to explain the concept:

John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12)

I now understand that these things aren’t quite so linear, but back then I would launch this verse often.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I was an evangelical for 25years and we often used this verse to explain the concept:

John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12)

I now understand that these things aren’t quite so linear, but back then I would launch this verse often.

Hi,
I have never heard that one used, although it is a good one. I refer people all over the bible, but for this particular topic I would say Romans 10
1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). **8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” **

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” 19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” 20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

 

[puzzleannie]

I personally am tired of the same old usage “Protestant” to mean everything from born again fundamentalists to urbane unbelieving Episcopalians. That usage is not helpful in apologetics discussions on these forums. of far more help would be to cite, with source and link if possible, a statement or writing by a certain writer, clergyman, or adherent of a body, state who is making the statement, what is their confession or denomination, make the precise citation, and begin the discussion. Catholics resent an apologetics argument that begins “I heard someplace that Catholics believe, practice . . . .” without source or attribution. I imagine adherents of various non-Catholic bodies resent the same thing that begins “I heard a Protestant say that . . . .” and start an argument.

 

[Steadfast]

The Bible doesn’t say anything about “accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior”.

Don’t get me wrong. This is a very good thing to do but it doesn’t save you. The passages about confessing Jesus as Lord and calling upon Him are important but they aren’t given as a kind of blueprint to salvation.The context is a discussion on the continuity of the Biblical message about salvation and speaks therefore to the necessity of recognizing Jesus as God, something Jews would not do. So the point is the recognition of Christ’s messiahship and divinity, not to any magical formula for salvation.

Similarly the passage from John about “receiving Him” speaks, again in context, to his epiphany or manifestation and therefore directly to His earthly ministry and the polarization that caused and continues to cause. It comes in the introduction to John’s Gospel where he outlines the uniqueness of Christ’s Incarnation and ministry.

Again, it isn’t a map for salvation.

The Bible speaks far more directly about Baptism and faith through hearing the Gospel being the means by which people are actually joined to Christ and redeemed.

The real problem with most evangelical salvation talk as it rests on “reception” and “acceptance” is that it makes the work of our salvation dependent upon something we do, some work we have to perform; we have to choose, to accept, to receive. But the Bible doesn’t talk that way about the nuts and bolts of redemption.

The overriding message of Scripture is that in Christ God has redeemed His people. God has done it. God, not us, and the means are Word and Sacrament.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The Bible doesn’t say anything about “accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior”.

Don’t get me wrong. This is a very good thing to do but it doesn’t save you. The passages about confessing Jesus as Lord and calling upon Him are important but they aren’t given as a kind of blueprint to salvation.The context is a discussion on the continuity of the Biblical message about salvation and speaks therefore to the necessity of recognizing Jesus as God, something Jews would not do. So the point is the recognition of Christ’s messiahship and divinity, not to any magical formula for salvation.

Similarly the passage from John about “receiving Him” speaks, again in context, to his epiphany or manifestation and therefore directly to His earthly ministry and the polarization that caused and continues to cause. It comes in the introduction to John’s Gospel where he outlines the uniqueness of Christ’s Incarnation and ministry.

Again, it isn’t a map for salvation.

The Bible speaks far more directly about Baptism and faith through hearing the Gospel being the means by which people are actually joined to Christ and redeemed.

The real problem with most evangelical salvation talk as it rests on “reception” and “acceptance” is that it makes the work of our salvation dependent upon something we do, some work we have to perform; we have to choose, to accept, to receive. But the Bible doesn’t talk that way about the nuts and bolts of redemption.

The overriding message of Scripture is that in Christ God has redeemed His people. God has done it. God, not us, and the means are Word and Sacrament.

Hi,
I was wondering how would you explain the verses I put out above–2 posts up about Romans? Also how do you think God saves us? At some point we have to believe and confess we believe–right? I was just slightly confused by your statement.