Tithing: Protestant compared to Catholic

[Brandon_Cal]

Catholics have the option of paying that way:

classic.parishpay.com/homepage.asp

You can pay electronically by credit card; then you get
donation slips to put in the collection basket.

If the transaction occurs entirely online, what’s the purpose of the “donation slip” to be placed in the collection basket? Wouldn’t the parish already have a record of the donation making the donation slip superfluous? I was under the impression that donation slips being left in the collection basket were for in person donations that the parishioner wants a record of for tax purposes.

 

[Hrvatski]

For my wife and I tithing has been a spiritual decision not a financial one. I believe and understand that giving is a personal choice and no one is under any constraint to do something they are uncomfortable with. What we decided to do was to tithe 10% to our parish and in addition save 10% of our income which we invested. We have done this for 46 years, since we were first married. We are not rich people. I would describe us as middle class. We are retired now. My wife was a nurse and I a professional truck driver. We raised three kids and helped put them through college. Living on 80% of your income teaches you to wise in the use of your resources. We have had our challenges but God has been faithful. I would do it all over again.
Ski

 

[TxGodfollower]

Wow, thank you everyone for chiming in. I also appreciate the debate being kept very respectful and polite (I am sure the moderators do too). I am sorry this is kinda a long post, but I had a lot to reply to.

It is fact that the Catholic Church is the most charitable
“organization” in the world. We give in so many
other ways than simple tithing. Take a looky see at
your Church bulletin. Most are filled with requests
to volunteer for one charity or another.

Catie, the article addressed this partially. They didn’t find any higher giving to non-church causes when comparing Catholics and Protestants. I don’t know, however, if they looked at volunteer hours as part of their research. I would be very interested to know if that “balances” the two.

Are we members of competing sports teams, or something?

Consider:

1. Tithing is part of the Mosaic covenant. Christians are not under the old covenant.
2. Tithing is a work and Catholics do not believe in works salvation.
3. Tithing is sacrifice and our Lord desires mercy more than sacrifice.
   Just as pastor depends on tithing for his paycheck, someone supports each and every parish on earth, each Priest, Bishop, religious brother ad sister, and every convent, abbey, seminary and shrine, as well as each Church employee and program - in every nation on earth. That money does not come from a government subsidy.

LOL on the sports team. I thought it was an interesting point of comparison, didn’t mean to imply it was a competition.

1. Very true, the old covenant is dead.
2. Protestants don’t teach works based salvation. Most teach salvation by faith (through grace) only. Since Catholics teach “faith working through love” one could almost assume that Catholic average giving would be higher.
3. Good point.

New Living 2 Corinthians 9:7Translation
You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”

Techno, that is what confuses me. I have been to several Protestant services (though considering how big the world is, not that many) and I find that most teach 2 Corinthians 9:7. My question is why, with two large groups of people (Catholics and Protestants), with similar teachings on the subject (2 Corinthians 9:7 being a good summery), does one group give nearly 2x as much as a % of income?

Some local Baptist churches actually require a copy of your W-2 to join! They know exactly how much you earn.

Mormons are very strict about advancing in their temple only if you have the cash.

I believe the Jewish religion is also rather strict. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the formula for how much a rabbi is paid figured based on the salaries of the top ten percent of the Jewish community? Now, that being said, look how long rabbis go to school.

Catholic priests go to school for quite a few years as well. However, poverty is a virtue. Some priests do not take vows of poverty, but their salaries are still modest. Do we take advantage of our priests that take vows of poverty?

Catholic Farmer, I’ve never heard of that type of practice from a Baptist (or any church) and I, too, find it intrusive.

I did read some things on the practice in some Mormon groups, but they weren’t included in the study as “Protestants”.

Referring to St. Justin the Martyr’s description of the Mass to the Roman Emperor, 154 AD, only the wealthy were asked to support widows and orphans, but then they were to give freely what they themselves chose to give.

In past times, it was the laity who would provide gifts of bread and wine for the Mass.

There are missions and drives to support certain causes, but no one is asked to give 10%.
On the other hand, the Catholic parents whose children attend parochial schools have to do alot of fund raising and physical support of their schools.

The Church traditionally has not practiced tithing. People give what they can.

Today, if you ask a household to contribute 10%, for a married couple without children it is workable. But when you have a family with children asking them to give 10%, that is a burden, and it costs so much now to raise a child as well as having a job, hard to find for many people.

If there are churches closing, many times it is lack of members to maintain the buildings.

Kathleen,

I probably should have title the thread “offering” instead of tithing.

On the point with kids, I too thought that would be the case, but the article I posted found that to be untrue: “Catholic families with children in school give more, not less, than other Catholic families, the researchers said.” and “Other unfounded assumptions are that… because they [Catholic’s] send their children to parochial schools in greater numbers

 

[captainrick]

Methodist churches give each family a supply of envelopes. Put your donation in an envelope and put it in the collection plate. Or, ignore your envelopes and put in cash. You set yourself a goal, a certain amount to put in the envelopes, per week, but if you don’t meet your goal, no one bothers you about it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Texas…I have found the Catholic families most devout and Orthodox, the most evangelical, and most open to number of children. It is common to see Catholic home school families have over 4 children, the kids highly intelligent and very well behaved. Many of them go on to Catholic universities.

When the kids get into teen age years, that is when raising kids is most difficult. I heard a priest on EWTN yesterday from an old 1996 clip with Mother Angelica, that they can be given the full teaching of faith, but then walk out the door and have 24 things hitting them in all directions that seem to wipe out what they are being talk.

Cardinal Wuerl said right before the election of Pope Francis that the Church is being hit by a secular tidal wave.

So much we hold on to the Bark of Peter, place our families inside the Immaculate Heart of Mary pray the rosary and spend time before the Blessed Sacrament…from an old prophecy of St. Don Bosco.

Don’t worry about how you titled the thread…it is fine.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Tommy for your comments. Some times I get impression from tv evangelists about planting seed faith…giving donations to get something in return.

I think it best to support widows and orphans and help the poor to please Christ and nothing more…give and do not expect anything in the Lord and know He will take care of our every need.

Needs are relative…having something to eat every day…having a roof or shelter over your head and loving Christian friends and being free to worship Him…what else is there truly???

 

[TxGodfollower]

Methodist churches give each family a supply of envelopes. Put your donation in an envelope and put it in the collection plate. Or, ignore your envelopes and put in cash. You set yourself a goal, a certain amount to put in the envelopes, per week, but if you don’t meet your goal, no one bothers you about it.

Sounds like a good system to me. It lets you give any amount of your choosing, and prevents a nosy pew mate from judging you for putting too much/too little into the collection plate. All they see is an envelope.

 

[canis73]

Sounds like a good system to me. It lets you give any amount of your choosing, and prevents a nosy pew mate from judging you for putting too much/too little into the collection plate. All they see is an envelope.

In every church I´ve ever attended (or the vast majority of them), no plates are used, but deep bags in which you can hide your hand when donating. Nobody knows how much your are putting in and nobody can estimate how much has been collected. And you need to tell the (usually) lady, who walks by the aisle, to come over to you, in order to donate. Very discrete.

Similar to this one:
gotasdetiempo.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/colecta.jpg

 

[KathleenGee]

When the ushers come by to pass the baskets down, they do not look at what people do, whether they contribute or not. Appreciate that discipline.

I would say in the Catholic tradition, we give freely.

But we do have those drives for a new church building or school, or drives for the missions.

It seems the drives are about twice a year.

About the Catholic Church’s overall contribution, the Church is the biggest giver to humanity, greater output than any country, including America. I do know the name of the organization, and had a retreat with the priest who was its prior vice president. It is documented fact.

And our parishes here contribute alot to organizations of all sorts that are secular.

I see that as an action of grace in Christ…the generosity comes from Him and it is done in His name…not so much us for our own sake.

I would also add that every week the parish bulletin relates how much was given in contributions, where we are now, and how much debt we have to catch up on. Usually I read that we are about 20 to 25% running under.

Then there is always some steward out there that contributes…the anonymous ones, that fill up the gap.

 

[Darryl_B]

Having been evangelical christian for 18 years, and Catholic for 0.7 years, I would like to contribute to this whole money thing. The evangelical church I went to as all evangelical churches are seem to be incredibly expensive organizations to run. They need the contribution directly to the church so they can finance staff, latest gadgetry in the av department, big screen projectors, fancy churches, fancy houses and cars for the pastors. That is the inward expense, then the outward expense is also possible radio stations tv broadcasts, financing overseas travels by missionary staff, big flamboyant outreaches. Spreading the gospel cannot be done effectively on a shoe-string budget.

Tithing was preached on at least once a year. But the pastor always claimed reluctance to do it. Give your money where you get your food (ie sermons) was the philosophy.

 

[daddyd]

A large chunk of conservative protestant pastors teach mandatory tithes, and they do so very effectively with the carrot and stick method. If you tithe, so they say, you’ll be blessed, if you don’t tithe you are robbing God and will be cursed. They overlay the Mosaic tithe onto the church by comparing the church to the local granaries. It is this type of teaching that drives a lot of the giving.

I’ve studied tithing, every mention of it in scripture, and it is not mandated for the NT Church. My position is supported by the other half of conservative protestant pastors; freewill, God-lead giving. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, and it is a part of His nature to be kind, merciful, giving, etc… so we want to let that character come out in our giving, especially since 100% of what we have is God’s. So, the tithe was a foreshadowing and a taste of how it should be; open hands, and an ear to those in need. This is, I believe, closer to what the RCC teaches; CCC 2043 The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his abilities.

In short, one or the other teaching is featured in conservative protestant circles, so our pastors talk freely about tithing and/or giving usually on a routine basis. Gratefully I don’t think it is a competition either.

Isn’t a duty the same as a mandate? Anyway you are right tithing is not mandated by the NT church. It is mandated by God however.

Malachi3
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Notice Malachi says that we “rob God” not only by withholding tithes (which by the way means one tenth) but also in offerings and this is what Paul was talking about that we should give cheerfully. The tithes were just assumed.

 

[Darryl_B]

Malachi3

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house

Could you explain to us what God intends when He says “storehouse” and what He intends when He says “meat” in His house?

Why does God want food in His temple (or Church)?

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The OP asked why Protestants tithe more than Catholics. Here is my opinion.

Eternal Security and the Protestant Treadmill

While one group of Protestants is touting “once saved always saved” theology, another group is stating that you can never really be sure who has REAL faith until the end because it might turn out that one is “overcome” by the world at the last minute. I’m just curious, which of these groups is “rightly dividing the word of God” and which is wrongly dividing it? They can’t both be right—yet both claim scripture as their sole rule of faith. So much for the doctrine of sola scriptura.

When Catholics speak of mortal sin, OSAS Protestants will begin screaming about how “wrong” Catholics are to hold that someone could live a good life according to the Word of God and still lose out on salvation because they are not in a state of grace due to mortal sin at the time of their death. Yet, other Protestants will declare that if one is “overcome” by the world and does not persevere (in what? good works?) to the end, that is evidence that one does not have saving faith to being with!

Our OSAS friends are in a difficult situation for they cannot know for sure right now if they REALLY have that saving faith or not, and they won’t know this side of heaven. They realize (or should, if they are honest) that they could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps their time of testing has not yet come.

This uncertainty is what drives much of the “good works” of Protestantism—the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They do these things, in part, to give evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

This is the treadmill they are on—and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe Catholics think they can earn their way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually attempting to do that very thing themselves!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I stumbled on this article for another thread and I found it interesting. It is about 14 years old, but I haven’t been able to find a more current study (if you know of one, please reply with a link). Basically, the study found that as a percentage of income, Protestants give more than Catholics.

Anyone have any idea on why this is, other than those offered by the article? Do you think it is a problem?

adherents.com/misc/giving.html

(My first thread )

Hello first thread.

As a former Protestant, now Catholic, I can think of a few reasons.

First of all Protestants seem to be a bit more enthusiastic about their faith. That’s one observation.

Secondly they tend to identify with “their church”. Catholics are probably more aware of being Catholic, and they can walk into any Catholic Church for mass, and be pretty confident they’ll experience the same procedure that they have in their own church. Oh, there might be some differences - better or worse music, a different layout to some extent, the choir might up the back and overhead instead of down the front etc.

But the procedure / liturgy will be much the same, hence there is less tendency to identify with their particular parish church.

Third the financial issue is pushed a bit more in Protestant churches. They may not stipulate 10% tithe, but you can be sure it will get a mention somewhere along the line, even if only implied. “The Old Testament tithe was 10%, but we’re not Old Covenant people… ARE WE?”

My wife is Baptist, and they have any number of church meetings, sometimes boring with some who want to hold the floor for half the meeting (I’ve been to a couple), in which matters are discussed, including the budget, missions and mission giving etc. They also emphasise missions a lot more. So they know what the figures are.

My own Catholic church would have a full members’ meeting once every blue moon. So the personal giving aspect is not emphasised.

We also have a school “attached” to the parish, and a lot of the parents would possibly consider school costs as a sort of contribution to the Catholic Church. They’re not, but I could understand that mindset.

In a nutshell, I think Protestants identify with their particular church (I know I did when I was Presbyterian. I tended to identify with our parish, not the Presbyterian outfit as a whole). I think they’re a bit more enthusiastic. They push the financial aspect more (especially the mega-churches - that’s one of the reasons they’re mega-churches - they make a lot of money, with facilities and ministries to boot). They also promote mission a lot more.

Finally I remember when I was still a Presbyterian. I suppose I was trying to find out a bit more about where I should “go”, so for a few Sundays I went to a growing church that met in Mansfield High School at the time (years ago now).

They were having a drive to get their own land, a big church building, with visions of the ministries they’d be able to achieve and so on.

I couldn’t believe how much money some of their members were pledging towards this drive. Quite ordinary young couples were pledging amounts like $5000, $10,000 and so on, to be given over two or three years. The same money now would be more like $12,000 or $25,000 in today’s terms (Australian or US dollars). And these were not millionaires. They were ordinary working people. Maybe they had good jobs - I don’t know. But I couldn’t believe it.

If that church is the one I’m thinking off, they now have a massive church not far away, with a Christian College. The pledges paid off. But they were sacrificial.

And that was on top of their weekly tithe.

So some of them push it a lot more. My own Presbyterian church didn’t - it always struggled. I remember the pastor quipping about the church budget - “You know, you paint the door this year, fix the window next year”. So they’re not all wealthy. But then the church I was in was an inner city church. If you want to grow a big church, go to to the outer suburbs where the young families are.

 

[Kliska]

Isn’t a duty the same as a mandate? Anyway you are right tithing is not mandated by the NT church. It is mandated by God however.

It’s a part of the Mosaic covenant; do you do all mandated by God in the Mosaic covenant? I hope not, for then you aren’t under the new covenant. In the New Covenant, we are the temple, we are the priests, and God owns 100% of us and all we have and all we are. Paul is clear; free-will cheerful giving, and to present ourselves as living sacrifices. James is also pretty clear in his declaration and decision of what to tell the Gentiles; notice the tithe is not amongst the list.

Notice Malachi says that we “rob God” not only by withholding tithes (which by the way means one tenth) but also in offerings and this is what Paul was talking about that we should give cheerfully. The tithes were just assumed.

And you illustrate my other point; look at your words. The word used is “tithes” plural. Tithe, singular means one tenth, tithes, plural means multiple tenths. In short, pastors do not even teach the OT tithe system properly because the Israelites gave much much more than a singular tenth.

Anyone who teaches the tithe is mandatory or a duty or whatever word you want to use is not following scripture, but rather trying to put new wine into old wineskins. Do a study of every use of the the word “tithe” and “tithes” in the whole Bible. Note who did, how often, when, what they gave, and why. Also note if it was at God’s behest, or on their own. If you would like to freely give 10% as lead to by God, no problem, but there is not a carrot and stick attached as under the Mosaic law, and if you want to follow the Mosaic law, you need to make sure you are paying tithes and not just tithe… as well as firstfruits and all the other offerings required.

 

[TxGodfollower]

Hello first thread.

As a former Protestant, now Catholic, I can think of a few reasons.

First of all Protestants seem to be a bit more enthusiastic about their faith. That’s one observation.

Secondly they tend to identify with “their church”. Catholics are probably more aware of being Catholic, and they can walk into any Catholic Church for mass, and be pretty confident they’ll experience the same procedure that they have in their own church. Oh, there might be some differences - better or worse music, a different layout to some extent, the choir might up the back and overhead instead of down the front etc.

But the procedure / liturgy will be much the same, hence there is less tendency to identify with their particular parish church.

Third the financial issue is pushed a bit more in Protestant churches. They may not stipulate 10% tithe, but you can be sure it will get a mention somewhere along the line, even if only implied. “The Old Testament tithe was 10%, but we’re not Old Covenant people… ARE WE?”

My wife is Baptist, and they have any number of church meetings, sometimes boring with some who want to hold the floor for half the meeting (I’ve been to a couple), in which matters are discussed, including the budget, missions and mission giving etc. They also emphasise missions a lot more. So they know what the figures are.

My own Catholic church would have a full members’ meeting once every blue moon. So the personal giving aspect is not emphasised.

We also have a school “attached” to the parish, and a lot of the parents would possibly consider school costs as a sort of contribution to the Catholic Church. They’re not, but I could understand that mindset.

In a nutshell, I think Protestants identify with their particular church (I know I did when I was Presbyterian. I tended to identify with our parish, not the Presbyterian outfit as a whole). I think they’re a bit more enthusiastic. They push the financial aspect more (especially the mega-churches - that’s one of the reasons they’re mega-churches - they make a lot of money, with facilities and ministries to boot). They also promote mission a lot more.

Finally I remember when I was still a Presbyterian. I suppose I was trying to find out a bit more about where I should “go”, so for a few Sundays I went to a growing church that met in Mansfield High School at the time (years ago now).

They were having a drive to get their own land, a big church building, with visions of the ministries they’d be able to achieve and so on.

I couldn’t believe how much money some of their members were pledging towards this drive. Quite ordinary young couples were pledging amounts like $5000, $10,000 and so on, to be given over two or three years. The same money now would be more like $12,000 or $25,000 in today’s terms (Australian or US dollars). And these were not millionaires. They were ordinary working people. Maybe they had good jobs - I don’t know. But I couldn’t believe it.

If that church is the one I’m thinking off, they now have a massive church not far away, with a Christian College. The pledges paid off. But they were sacrificial.

And that was on top of their weekly tithe.

So some of them push it a lot more. My own Presbyterian church didn’t - it always struggled. I remember the pastor quipping about the church budget - “You know, you paint the door this year, fix the window next year”. So they’re not all wealthy. But then the church I was in was an inner city church. If you want to grow a big church, go to to the outer suburbs where the young families are.

Bob, thank you very much for your very insightful perspective. Your point about enthusiasm was an interesting take, but I think your other point about church identity makes the most sense to me. Its like how many people here when asked where they are from reply ‘Texas’ instead of ‘United States’. Now that I think of it, that sort of identity selection seems to be shared by Protestants. Yes, they will identify themselves as Baptist or Lutheran, but the identity really is focused on what church location they actually attend. Local Catholic churches, as you pointed out, all teach basically the same thing and are only differentiated by some style or other minor details. I wonder if in more rural areas, where there is only 1 Catholic church that people can get to, if donations as a % of income is higher. I am thinking with only the 1 church building option, the identity selection would be the same as Protestants and that would translate into similar support being given.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic Church does not force. The Church proposes as we are to be free in Christ.

Yes, it is our duty, however, to support our Church.

Another point is that within Catholicism when it comes to expression, you are going to find introvert to extrovert parishes. But I have found that the more contemplative parishes do quite well financially.

Also, those families who go to a non-school parish are given tuition assistance through the pastor to apply towards their Catholic oftentimes based in other parishes.

 

[Lek]

Many protestants interpret scripture to say that we should still tithe, although I don’t know how they arrive at that conclusion. My pastor doesn’t come out and say it plainly, but the inference that we should tithe comes out in his sermons every so often. I don’t believe in tithing, but I’ve always fought with myself as to whether I give enough, and have steadily tried to increase my giving to the church, missionaries, charities, etc. I think if most of us examined how much of our income we give to God, we would come up short.

 

[KathleenGee]

From a source I read some time ago, tithing was requested two times in Scripture, the other in Deuteronomy.

In earliest Christian times only the wealthy were asked to support the widows and orphans, and likewise they were free to decide themselves on how much they wanted to support.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

The OP asked why Protestants tithe more than Catholics. Here is my opinion.

Eternal Security and the Protestant Treadmill

While one group of Protestants is touting “once saved always saved” theology, another group is stating that you can never really be sure who has REAL faith until the end because it might turn out that one is “overcome” by the world at the last minute. I’m just curious, which of these groups is “rightly dividing the word of God” and which is wrongly dividing it? They can’t both be right—yet both claim scripture as their sole rule of faith. So much for the doctrine of sola scriptura.

When Catholics speak of mortal sin, OSAS Protestants will begin screaming about how “wrong” Catholics are to hold that someone could live a good life according to the Word of God and still lose out on salvation because they are not in a state of grace due to mortal sin at the time of their death. Yet, other Protestants will declare that if one is “overcome” by the world and does not persevere (in what? good works?) to the end, that is evidence that one does not have saving faith to being with!

Our OSAS friends are in a difficult situation for they cannot know for sure right now if they REALLY have that saving faith or not, and they won’t know this side of heaven. They realize (or should, if they are honest) that they could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps their time of testing has not yet come.

This uncertainty is what drives much of the “good works” of Protestantism—the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They do these things, in part, to give evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

This is the treadmill they are on—and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe Catholics think they can earn their way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually attempting to do that very thing themselves!

This is over the top. Most protestants tithe because they think it’s the right thing to do. That’s the very same reason Catholics tithe. But as I said in an earlier post, they tend to be a bit more enthusiastic, so they give a bit more.

The idea that every time a Protestant drops his tithe in the plate he’s going through a whole lot of theological rigmarole about works and faith is a load of rubbish.

By the time a person has been Christian for some years, Protestant or Catholic, tithing is little more than a habit.

Like going to church or mass.

If we’re honest with ourselves.