Title of Catholic Priests

[josephdavid]

MrS:

that is a pretty powerful link…

So much for “their” agruement that if priests were allowed to marry, they would not have the “inclination” to seek out boys.

It is a very sad link too. It breaks my heart to know each day children are abused. Being a new father (3 children ages 3 to 9 mo’s) I could not imagine that to my children.

 

[josephdavid]

Giver:

I don’t believe Paul ever allowed any one to call him **“father ** **Paul”. ** I also believe his use of father, was just an expression to remind the people to whom he was writing that he was responsible for their rebirth in Christ.

Giver it is not so much what you believe but what Scripture says. Being that Scripture was written by Man through the breath of the Holy Spirit we can not deny Scripture.

 

[josephdavid]

Semper Fi:

In the past 50 years, there have been only 3-4% of all priests accused of sexual abuse, which is less than protestant ministers. In protestantism, the number of sex abuse scandals is as high as 10%.QUOTE]

One scandle regardless of Catholic or Protestant is too many. Please all pray for these children.

 

[johnq]

Giver:

It is dangerous for both parties to call another man father or to be called father.

Thanks for the desired help.

Can you give us more scriptural support to back up your claim?

Could you summarize the Catholic position on the use of using the title “father?” I ask this because I am wondering if you are listening to what the Chuch teaches or to what you believe the Church teaches. There is a big difference.

God

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

josephdavid:

Semper Fi:

In the past 50 years, there have been only 3-4% of all priests accused

of sexual abuse, which is less than protestant ministers. In protestantism, the number of sex abuse scandals is as high as 10%.QUOTE]

One scandle regardless of Catholic or Protestant is too many. Please all pray for these children.

I am not discounting it, just putting it in perspective. All too often we are attacked because of this due to ignorance of the subject, ignorance which does not help children.

God bless,

 

[Giver]

FCEGM:

Actually, to “understand” such a thing would be to go counter what the Lord Himself teaches when He, Himself, raises up (first) His Apostles as leaders of His Church (not just honorific, either, but with true authority).

It seems your erroneous reading of scripture has brought you to the assumption that, while we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, there can never be anyone who has more authority - or holiness (and this isn’t necessarily and automatically tied to the first) - than anyone else. This, of course, would be a “comfortable” position to assume since it allows one to serve as his or her own authority when reading Scripture.

I didn’t say anything about authority, I said honor, and show me in Scripture where Jesus shares His Glory. All glory and honor belongs to Jesus not to us.

(1 Corinthians 4:21) “Since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?”

 

[Giver]

johnq:

Thanks for the desired help.

Can you give us more scriptural support to back up your claim?

Could you summarize the Catholic position on the use of using the title “father?” I ask this because I am wondering if you are listening to what the Chuch teaches or to what you believe the Church teaches. There is a big difference.

God

The Catholic Church teaches that it is right to call another man father. Why the Church believes it has the right to do so isn’t really my concern. The Church is wrong, Jesus told us that our Father was in heaven.

 

[josephdavid]

Semper Fi:

josephdavid:

I am not discounting it, just putting it in perspective. All too often we are attacked because of this due to ignorance of the subject, ignorance which does not help children.

God bless,

So agreed. My feelings exactly.

I apologize if I made my comment to seem that you were discounting the fact.

 

[josephdavid]

Giver:

The Catholic Church teaches that it is right to call another man father. Why the Church believes it has the right to do so isn’t really my concern. The Church is wrong, Jesus told us that our Father was in heaven.

To simply state the Church is wrong is not a plausible argument. You have yet to show us were the Catholic Church is wrong. You are only holding on to two phrases with in scripture. This is not a basis for your theology. Where you have two comments we have shown you almost an entire book of passages supporting the Church’s position of calling a priest father.

Personally I believe you are taken the title of Father to priests out of context.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is

(Acts 2:46) “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”

(1 Peter 2:9) “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.”

Now if we are royal priest as Peter said and the early Christians went to their homes to receive the Eucharist, and Jesus said even if people were not part of the main group they were for Him, and Jesus said (John 6:53) “Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man ad drink his blood, you will not have life in you,” So do you really believe Jesus would let some one who was with Him not have life in him? Also it just doesn’t make sense to say that a Spirit filled person could ask Jesus to change bread and wine into His Body and blood and He would refuse the request.

(Hebrews 10:19-22) “In other words, brothers, through the blood of Jesus we have the right to enter the sanctuary, by a new way which he has opened for us, a living opening through the curtain, that is to say, his body. And we have the supreme high priest over all the house of God. So as we go in, let us be sincere in heart and filled with faith, our minds sprinkled and free from any trace of bad conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

(In the OT only the priest could enter the sanctuary. Now, because we are all priest we can all enter
Giver

How do you reconcile the fact that most Protestant pastors are not asking Jesus to change the bread and wine in to His body and blood? The don’t believe in the Real Presence and feel the ceremony is “symbolic.” Do you believe that Jesus turns the bread and wine into His body and blood anyway? I don’t think that makes sense.

The Catholic Church believes in the Real Presence and treats it with the honor that the great gift deserves. Receiving Our Lord should not be taken lightly. We need to approach Him in the proper way. It follows that some sort of preparation is in order. I can understand if you do not believe that, but it does make sense.

God bless.

 

[josephdavid]

pas·tor (pstr)
NOUN:

-A Christian minister or priest having **spiritual charge over a congregation or other group. **
-A layperson having spiritual charge over a person or group.
-A shepherd.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Giver:

The Catholic Church teaches that it is right to call another man father. Why the Church believes it has the right to do so isn’t really my concern. The Church is wrong, Jesus told us that our Father was in heaven.

Scripture is not wrong, you are. As we have shown with previous scripture quotes.

It was not until Irish immigrants who were coming to America did the Protestants stop calling their ministers ‘Father’.

 

[Giver]

ElizabethAnne:

How do you reconcile the fact that most Protestant pastors are not asking Jesus to change the bread and wine in to His body and blood? The don’t believe in the Real Presence and feel the ceremony is “symbolic.” Do you believe that Jesus turns the bread and wine into His body and blood anyway? I don’t think that makes sense.

The Catholic Church believes in the Real Presence and treats it with the honor that the great gift deserves. Receiving Our Lord should not be taken lightly. We need to approach Him in the proper way. It follows that some sort of preparation is in order. I can understand if you do not believe that, but it does make sense.

God bless.

As I have said I know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus.

I am not a protestant so I can’t speak for their ministers.

 

[jim1130]

Giver:

It is dangerous to be called father or to call another brother father. The resent history of the abuses of a number of Catholic priests proves my case.

When the presentation of information counters your opinion, just throw this out in hopes of changing the subject. I have learned quite a bit from reading the responses to your post. I would suggest that you also read the responses.

 

[Giver]

josephdavid:

To simply state the Church is wrong is not a plausible argument. You have yet to show us were the Catholic Church is wrong. You are only holding on to two phrases with in scripture. This is not a basis for your theology. Where you have two comments we have shown you almost an entire book of passages supporting the Church’s position of calling a priest father.

Personally I believe you are taken the title of Father to priests out of context.

I haven’t read in Scripture where Peter, James, John, or Paul ever was addressed as father. If they had they would have been disobeying Jesus.

 

[scylla]

Giver:

As I have said I know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus.

I am not a protestant so I can’t speak for their ministers.

Amen, as a Catholic, I believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ too.
My fundametalists friends would reject that belief as they self interpret the Bible, to their own understandings. They think that is impossible, or that God really didn’t mean it that way.

I invite you to read the links provided, and I do admit that Catholics and all Christians do some horrible things and cause scandle. We should look at the truth and not people as our faith is founded on Jesus. Even Peter denied Jesus and sinned but our faith is not dependant upon people but upon the promise of Jesus and His being with us to the end of time. The gates of hell wont prevail no matter how many years pass.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[FCEGM]

Giver:

I didn’t say anything about authority, I said honor, and show me in Scripture where Jesus shares His Glory. All glory and honor belongs to Jesus not to us.

One only has to read St. John’s Revelation to see Christ’s own glory bestowed on His faithful people, His Bride, the Church. You make of Christ a miser who hoards all to Himself, when in truth He raises us up by His grace in order for us to participate in His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and in the glory that pertains to that relationship.

 

[josephdavid]

Giver:

I haven’t read in Scripture where Peter, James, John, or Paul ever was addressed as father. If they had they would have been disobeying Jesus.

You really need to read what SemperFi scriptures he had posted!!!

So we are saying that they are wrong? Remember now Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into them. So you are saying they are wrong?

 

[Giver]

scylla:

Amen, as a Catholic, I believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ too.
My fundametalists friends would reject that belief as they self interpret the Bible, to their own understandings. They think that is impossible, or that God really didn’t mean it that way.

I invite you to read the links provided, and I do admit that Catholics and all Christians do some horrible things and cause scandle. We should look at the truth and not people as our faith is founded on Jesus. Even Peter denied Jesus and sinned but our faith is not dependant upon people but upon the promise of Jesus and His being with us to the end of time. The gates of hell wont prevail no matter how many years pass.

In Christ
Scylla

I would like to remind you of something: (1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.

 

[jpete79]

You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.

I just want to chime in with my two cents. The issue at hand is NOT the title itself, it is the reason for the title. It is because we are NOT to be exalted by humans.

When we call our dads “father” it does not give a position of exaltation to him. It is a title that is appropriate. Even when we call others ancestors such as Abraham “father” it is appropriate because it was Abraham’s covenant with God that brought forth our relationship with God (because of Isaac). I would even say that calling the early Church writers “father” is not wrong as they are ancestors. I don’t call any of these “father” for reasons of exaltation as they are all human. I use the term in an ancestral fashion as a descendent of these people.

As far as with relations with Priests, I ask, what is the purpose of the title? Is it meaningless or is it due to putting on a position of power? Well, I look at the Holy Father himself, the Pope, and people bow to him and kiss his hand. This to me seems like it is definately a title due to the purpose of exaltation. I think of the sacrament of penance, where a Priest can absolve the sins of a man through confession.

I am not saying that all Priests and Popes abuse their power but I am saying that the phrase from the Bible is a phrase about humility. Why should we not call people, Father or Teacher is because of the exaltation that can go with it. I unfortunately do see that in the Catholic Church.

Also, Paul may have said to call him father as it was a role Christ gave but there is no showing of him being exalted. The closest we see is in Corinthians where people are being baptized in different names and Paul says that he is glad he only baptized two households. He doesn’t want his name to be spoken he wants Christ’s. Even when he said I am your father, in a spiritual sense, he still said it was a role appointed by Christ…he is saying that there should be a transfer of power and was humble.

I am not saying that the Pope or Priests cannot be humble. John Paul II was one of the humblest men I’ve ever seen. I do see that power does come with position in the Church though and that glorifies the clergy and not the Lord in many instances.