Title of Catholic Priests

[MrS]

Giver:

Wow! I Quote Peter and you are telling me I am an irreligious sinner, mischief-maker, grumbler governed only by my desires, with mouths full of boastful talk, ready with flattery for other people when they see some advantage in it?

NO I am not… I am suggesting to you (with Scriptural Evidence) that
1] there is a Ministerial Priesthood in the NT…
2] It exists today
3] It was given to us by Christ Himself at the Last Supper
4] It only exists in the Catholic Church
5] there is much more than “just” the priesthood of believers.

No priests… no Eucharist…

no Eucharist… no Church

Then you would not even have something to come back to.

 

[josephdavid]

Some one get this person a Bible quick:

Matthew 5:17-20 - (Jesus during the Sermon on the Mount …) "You must not think I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to complete them. Indeed, I assure you that, while Heaven and earth last, the Law will not lose a single dot or comma until its purpose is complete. This means that whoever now relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do the same will himself be called least in Heaven.

But whoever teaches and practises them will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that your goodness must be a far better thing then the goodness of the scribes and Pharisees before you can set foot in the kingdom of Heaven at all!

 

[Lillith]

Giver:

The Ten Commandments were from the Old Law and before Jesus come.

Hmmm!!!

And Jesus told us to love God above all, and our brother as ourself…and how do we do that?

We Love God By…

1. Having No other God before Him
2. Do not take the Lord’s name in Vain
3. Keeping the Sabath Holy

We Love each other by…
4. Honoring our parents
5. Don’t kill each other
6. Don’t commit adultery
7. don’t steal
8. Don’t covet your neighbors house
9. Don’t covet your neighbor’s wife.

Jesus’ “new” commandments were just condensed version of the original ten

 

[awfulthings9]

First off, I think the argument with Giver is getting a bit silly. In an earlier post, someone provided him with the NT example he asked for, and suddenly it wasn’t valid because Christ hadn’t died yet. Should you find an example that meets this criteria, it probably won’t be valid because Pentacost hadn’t happened yet. And if you find an example that happens after Pentacost, it won’t be valid because Scripture hadn’t been compiled yet.

Anyway, I just wanted to comment that some of our Protestant friends are discounting the references to Paul and Abraham as valid examples because they were patriarchs of the faith. However, it is worth to not that in 2 John, we see John refer TWICE to the leaders, or elders, of local churches as “fathers”. “I write to you, fathers, that you …” Leaders of local churches? This is exactly the level of leadership that our priests serve. Here we see a Spirit-inspired reference to “priests” (or elders for the non-Catholics) being called “father”. Do we need any more justification than this?

In addition, jpete79 wrote that our practice of kissing the Pope’s hand and bowing are ways of raising him up to an innappropriate level. This causes problems because, four times in his epistles, Paul tells us to greet each other with a holy kiss. The leaders of Ephesus met him with a kiss after he preached to them a final time. It is a sign of respect, not worship (and only in America would any see a problem with a friendly kiss used in this way - it is common in Europe). On top of that, we see many examples of people bowing as respect. Not to mention the fact that I genuflected before my wife to give her her ring, Jacob bowed seven times before Esau and his men, Bathsheba bowed before David, and Solomen bowed before Bathsheba. It is an honor we give to someone who, perhaps, is in a position of leadership or deference, yet we can see that none of these examples serve as “worship” or deifying the subject of the bow.

 

[mlchance]

Giver:

Isn’t there anyone out there who understands that Jesus was telling us that we were all brothers and no one brother was to be raised up above another?

No one brother is to be raised up above another. Jesus Christ is our brother. Therefore…

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[maryj]

Giver:

The Catholic Church teaches that it is right to call another man father. Why the Church believes it has the right to do so isn’t really my concern. The Church is wrong, Jesus told us that our Father was in heaven.

COME ON!!!
“Our Father who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”
OUR FATHER, not my father, Our(plural) speaking of all of us,everybody,not just you, not just me.
My father (earthly!!!) died 22 years ago
My father (the giver of my spiritual life) lives next to the church in the rectory.One cooperated with God in giving me my physical life, the other cooperated with God in giving me my spiritual life by preaching the Gospels and administering the sacraments. I’m sorry I feel terrible for you that you are that confused. I’m going to stop now, I don’t want to have to go to confession tomorrow. But I will say this to you Giver…attack my Church,Or my father, the most humble man, the most God loving man, the man who brings me Jesus, and I will correct you.

Lord fill my mind and heart with true understanding.

 

[mark_a]

Giver:

The Ten Commandments were from the Old Law and before Jesus come.

Hmmm!!!

From the KJV:

Luke 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

I didn’t say anything about authority, I said honor, and show me in Scripture where Jesus shares His Glory. All glory and honor belongs to Jesus not to us.
…

Perhaps the following will help you appreciate the fact that God exalts those he chooses.

1 Sam 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low, he also exalts.

1 Sam 2:10
The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king, and exalt the power of his anointed.

2 Sam 22:49-51
who brought me out from my enemies; thou didst **exalt me ** above my adversaries, thou didst deliver me from men of violence. “For this I will extol thee, O Lord, among the nations, and sing praises to thy name. Great triumphs he gives to his king, and shows steadfast love to his anointed, to David, and his descendants forever.”

Matt 22:10
whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Luke 1:52 (Mary’s Magnificat)
he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

Luke 1:48-52
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

2 Cor 11:7
Did I commit a sin in abasing myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel without cost to you?

James 1:7-10
For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord. Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass he will pass away.

James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you.

Please note that those that are called father, bishop, or deacon do not give themselves these titles. God calls them and the Church which is the body of Christ on earth gives them the title. These titles come straight out of the bible as has been pointed out to you.

 

[Pax]

MrS:

Here is a little homework for you…

In the OT there is a story of the death of those who tried to assume the authority and responsibilities of the MINISTERIAL priesthood. They and their followers incurred death.

In the NT, (hint: Jude), the early Church members are again admonished for this same error/mistake/act-of-arrogance of trying to assume - as members of the Royal Priesthood - the authority and the responsibilities of the MINISTERIAL priesthood. They are warned that they will incure the same fate.

I first encourage you to study this… then ask you not to make the same mistake again.

This is an extremely important point. I hope Giver will study this issue. Any individual that believes that the priesthood is not required for the consecration of the Eucharist is unwittingly following in Korah’s rebellion.

 

[mlchance]

Giver:

The Ten Commandments were from the Old Law and before Jesus come.

So? The Son of God, who became Jesus Christ, wrote the Ten Commandments.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Giver]

MrS:

NO I am not… I am suggesting to you (with Scriptural Evidence) that
1] there is a Ministerial Priesthood in the NT…
2] It exists today
3] It was given to us by Christ Himself at the Last Supper
4] It only exists in the Catholic Church
5] there is much more than “just” the priesthood of believers.

No priests… no Eucharist…

no Eucharist… no Church

Then you would not even have something to come back to.

Ministerial Priesthood and using Jude as Scriptural evidence, that really is skimpy evidence. I think you should read the following and then you should see my Scriptural evidence is much stronger than yours.

I think man, not God, instituted ministerial priesthood. There was Eucharist before man ordained men to be priest.

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is

(Acts 2:46) “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”

(1 Peter 2:9) “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.”

Now if we are royal priest as Peter said and the early Christians went to their homes to receive the Eucharist, and Jesus said even if people were not part of the main group they were for Him, and Jesus said (John 6:53) “Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man ad drink his blood, you will not have life in you,” So do you really believe Jesus would let some one who was with Him not have life in him? Also it just doesn’t make sense to say that a Spirit filled person could ask Jesus to change bread and wine into His Body and blood and He would refuse the request.
Giver

 

[Eireann]

pachman:

Hi, Just arrived. There is a question that plays on my mind.
Why is it that Catholic Priests are called Father, when the bible says call no one Father except God himself?
I hope this question doesn’t cause offence.

Well then Jesus must have contradicted Himself when He told this parable, now Jesus doesn’t tell lies. :nope:

Luke 15: 11 **And he said: A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father: Father, give me the portion of substance that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his substance. 13 And not many days after, the younger son, gathering all together, went abroad into a far country: and there wasted his substance, living riotously. 14 And after he had spent all, there came a mighty famine in that country; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and cleaved to one of the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his farm to feed swine. **

15:17 **And returning to himself, he said: How many hired servants in my father’s house abound with bread, and I here perish with hunger? 18 I will arise, and will go to my father, and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee: 19 I am not worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And rising up he came to his father. And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and running to him fell upon his neck, and kissed him.

** Source

 

[Giver]

Pax:

This is an extremely important point. I hope Giver will study this issue. Any individual that believes that the priesthood is not required for the consecration of the Eucharist is unwittingly following in Korah’s rebellion.

Hello Pax, we meet again. I have posted this before, but I don’t believe you have read this post.

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is

(Acts 2:46) “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”

(1 Peter 2:9) “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.”

Now if we are royal priest as Peter said and the early Christians went to their homes to receive the Eucharist, and Jesus said even if people were not part of the main group they were for Him, and Jesus said (John 6:53) “Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man ad drink his blood, you will not have life in you,” So do you really believe Jesus would let some one who was with Him not have life in him? Also it just doesn’t make sense to say that a Spirit filled person could ask Jesus to change bread and wine into His Body and blood and He would refuse the request.

 

[Giver]

Eireann:

Well then Jesus must have contradicted Himself when He told this parable, now Jesus doesn’t tell lies. :nope:

Luke 15: 11 And he said: A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father: Father, give me the portion of substance that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his substance. 13 And not many days after, the younger son, gathering all together, went abroad into a far country: and there wasted his substance, living riotously. 14 And after he had spent all, there came a mighty famine in that country; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and cleaved to one of the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his farm to feed swine.

I would like to remind you to whom Jesus spoke Parables: (Matthew 13:10-14) Then the disciples went to him and asked, ‘Why do you talk to them in parables? ‘Because’ he replied ‘the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven ar revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them. For anyone who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away. The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding. So in their case this prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled:”

15:17 **And returning to himself, he said: How many hired servants in my father’s house ** abound with bread, and I here perish with hunger? 18 I will arise, and will go to my father, and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee: 19 I am not worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And rising up he came to his father. And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and running to him fell upon his neck, and kissed him.

Source

 

[MrS]

Pax:

This is an extremely important point. I hope Giver will study this issue. Any individual that believes that the priesthood is not required for the consecration of the Eucharist is unwittingly following in Korah’s rebellion.

shhhhh… Giver was supposed to look for this

 

[Giver]

Pax:

This is an extremely important point. I hope Giver will study this issue. Any individual that believes that the priesthood is not required for the consecration of the Eucharist is unwittingly following in Korah’s rebellion.

MS, it appears you haven’t read all my post either so here it is again:

Ministerial Priesthood and using Jude as Scriptural evidence, that really is skimpy evidence. I think you should read the following and then you should see my Scriptural evidence is much stronger than yours.

Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is

(Acts 2:46) “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”

(1 Peter 2:9) “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.”

Now if we are royal priest as Peter said and the early Christians went to their homes to receive the Eucharist, and Jesus said even if people were not part of the main group they were for Him, and Jesus said (John 6:53) “Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man ad drink his blood, you will not have life in you,” So do you really believe Jesus would let some one who was with Him not have life in him? Also it just doesn’t make sense to say that a Spirit filled person could ask Jesus to change bread and wine into His Body and blood and He would refuse the request.
Giver

 

[MrS]

Giver:

Ministerial Priesthood and using Jude as Scriptural evidence, that really is skimpy evidence. I think you should read the following and then you should see my Scriptural evidence is much stronger than yours.

** Skimpy…?? When Jude was written, and when the Catholic Church , working under the guidance of the Holy Spirit included Jude in the Canon… there was little or no widespread heresy that denied the existence of the MINISTERIAL Priesthood. But when the issue arose, the “skimpy” words of Jude reminded the early Christians not to try to assume a position beyond **their royal priesthood of believers

Now if we are royal priest as Peter said and the early Christians went to their homes to receive the Eucharist (from and thru the ordained MINISTERIAL Priesthood), and Jesus said even if people were not part of the main group they were for Him, and Jesus said (John 6:53) “Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man ad drink his blood, you will not have life in you,” So do you really believe Jesus would let some one who was with Him not have life in him? Also it** just doesn’t make sense to say that a Spirit filled person could ask Jesus to change bread and wine into His Body and blood and He would refuse the request.

Partially true… But the teaching is that the “spirit filled person” who does confect the Eucharist is only a Catholic Ordained Male in direct succession to the Apostolic Church.

And the “spirit-filled” person who is priviledged to receive that Eucharist must also be in union with the only Church empowered to offer the Eucharist - The Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Who also gave us the MINISTERIAL Priesthood**
Giver

By the way… perhaps “skimpy” evidence for the existence of the Ministerial Priesthood out-weighs “no” evidence for its non-existence.

Unless you add the Tradition of the Church !!

 

[Giver]

FCEGM:

Many times in the Gospels Jesus refers to our earthly fathers as well as our Heavenly Father; if the command to call no one on earth father were in the strict literal sense, He would not have done so. Similarly, we would not be commanded to “Honor your father and mother,” (Exodus 20:12).

Father Mitch Pacwa points out that “There are 144 occasions in the New Testament when the title of father is used for someone other than God. It is applied to the patriarchs of Israel, the fathers of families, to Jewish leaders and to Christian leaders” (“Call No Man Father?”, THIS ROCK, January 1991).

Many Christians call their ministers “Pastor.” Pastor means shepherd. In John 10:14-16 Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” If we reason that we cannot call a priest Father because we “have one Father who is in heaven,” then can we not also reason that we cannot call a minister Pastor because there is only “one Shepherd?”

God is Father and Jesus is Shepherd in the ultimate sense. Church leaders are shepherds and fathers in a lesser sense. Why else would Peter say in 1 Peter 5:2-4, “Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.” The term “Chief Shepherd” indicates that there are subordinate shepherds. One scripture verse clarifies another, and so it is with the different verses pertaining to the title of father.

Here are a few more scriptural examples which support the usage:

Acts 7:1 - Here Stephen addresses the Sanhedrin as “my brothers” and " my fathers". If the Lord’s words are to be taken as literally as some would take them, would not Stephen now be sinning in the very act of defending the faith? - a faith for which he was about to be martyred?

In Acts 22:1 we see St. Paul addressing the crowd in Jerusalem with the same words as St. Stephen, “My brothers, my FATHERS.” Is St. Paul committing the same “sin” as St. Stephen?

In 1 Thess. 2, is not St. Paul refering to himself as a spiritual father? And in 1 Corinthians 4 does he not say, “You have in Christ ten thousands teachers, but not many fathers, because in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through announcing the gospel. Therefore I exhort you to become imitators of me.”

St. Paul further writes: “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:14-15).

St. Paul refers to Timothy as “my son” and Titus as “true child of mine.” Is he not then arrogating to himself the position that only God the Father should have in their lives according to the way some read the Lord’s words?

Look into 1 John 2 where the beloved disciple calls the Christian men “Fathers.” Was he sinning in doing so? The cumulative effect of these verses certainly casts doubt on a literalistic reading of Matt 23.

In the NT, besides the passages already cited, we have both James and Paul speaking of “our father Abraham”. If one were to apply the Lord’s words in Matthew 23 as stringently as some question suggest, would they not be sinning - or at least in error - by referring to Abraham as “father”?

Looking at the manner in which Our Lord is speaking, we have to remember, too, that the limited vocabularly of Hebrew and Aramaic necessitated the use of hyperbole to get points across. We see this, e.g, in His words about “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off - if your eye, pluck it out, . . . [etc]”.

The Catholic priest is a spiritual father to those who have been placed in his charge. He acts as Christ’s instrument by bringing new members into His Body through Baptism, proclaims the Gospel, reconciles us to God through the Sacrament of Penance, and feeds us with the Body and Blood of our great High Priest. That some have not lived up to these awesome responsibilities no more calls into doubt the applicability of the word “father” for them then does the sinning of those men who contributed to our conception and nurtured and taught us in our natural lives.

Jesus told us to call no man father, now it seams so many of you are determined to find any excuse to continue the practice of calling priest etc. father, and you won’t believe Jesus in the written Word. I am sure that I will never convince you, but maybe Jesus Himself will. Why don’t you all ask Jesus instead of each other?

I have said all I’m going to say on this subject.
Giver

 

[MrS]

Giver:

Jesus told us to call no man father, now it seams so many of you are determined to find any excuse to continue the practice of calling priest etc. father, and you won’t believe Jesus in the written Word. I am sure that I will never convince you, but maybe Jesus Himself will. Why don’t you all ask Jesus instead of each other?

I have said all I’m going to say on this subject.
Giver

concerning the Church
“… he who believes you, Believes Me and the One WHO sent Me…”

we did ask… and got the answer.

 

[josephdavid]

Giver,
We have shown you countless scripture supporting this issue.
Secondly the Church was created by Christ and given the Keys to Peter himself . Breathed the Holy Spirit into him and the Apostles.

The Church has been the same since. THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES.