Title of Catholic Priests

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Giver:
Have you ever read anything where Paul or any of the Apostles were addressed as father? Were they called father by anyone? What is your problem, Jesus said not to call any man father, so why not just do as he told us? You can look and look for reasons not to obey Him, but why?
1st Corinthians 4:15 For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.

There ya go. St. Paul refers to himself as their father in Christ.

The whole rest of this old thread has refuted your premise as presented by others. Give it up.

You don’t want it, but HERE’s your answer.
 
Giver wants a verse from the Bible that says…"and Paul said “Call me Father.”

Obviously there is no such verse. There doesn’t need to be a verse like that because it wasn’t an issue. It has only been the constant misinterpretation of this verse and others that are an issue.

The quote from Jesus saying “call no man father” is taken out of context. This has been shown over and over in this thread, but obviously the blind do not want to see.
 
Church Militant said:
1st Corinthians 4:15 For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.

There ya go. St. Paul refers to himself as their father in Christ.

The whole rest of this old thread has refuted your premise as presented by others. Give it up.

You don’t want it, but HERE’s your answer.

Obviously Paul didn’t think Jesus was speaking about calling himself father was wrong, but Paul’s understanding doesn’t give us the right to disregard what Jesus said.
 
Giver
Have you ever read anything where Paul or any of the Apostles were addressed as father? Were they called father by anyone? What is your problem, Jesus said not to call any man father, so why not just do as he told us? You can look and look for reasons not to obey Him, but why?
This has been explain countless times regarding addressing priest or our male parent as “father”, but you have closed your eyes to all the explanations because “Jesus told you not to call any man father”.
OK, then look at these two addresses by Jesus. And these are only two.
Luke 14:26 Jesus said, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple.”
Are you obeying Jesus? Do you hate your wife, your children, your father and mother, yourself? If not, WHY? What is your problem? Jesus is telling you to hate them. Why are you not obeying Jesus?
Mark 10:17-31 “Jesus looked at him and loved him. ‘one thing you lack,’ **he said. **‘Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”’
Are you following Jesus. Have you sold your house, your car, your furniture, your life insurance, yes, even your computer, as Jesus is telling you to “sell everything”, not just some things, but “EVERYTHING”. Have you given it to the poor? Apparently not, because you are using your computer as we speak. If not, WHY? What is your problem? Why are you not obeying Jesus?
 
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Giver:
Obviously Paul didn’t think Jesus was speaking about calling himself father was wrong, but Paul’s understanding doesn’t give us the right to disregard what Jesus said.
You didn’t even bother to read the linked article did you? Oh but that’s right…you are the guy with the prophetic “word from the Lord” for all us “poor misguided Catholics”.

Does St. Paul then teach us error in that he plainly refers to himself as the spiritual father of the Corinthians?

Yet again and again I and others have refuted your unbiblical beliefs and your interpretations of the Word of God, yet you reject our counsel and rebuke.

You know what the Word of God says to do with a brother like that at this point don’t you?
Matthew 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them
 
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TobyLue:
Giver
This has been explain countless times regarding addressing priest or our male parent as “father”, but you have closed your eyes to all the explanations because “Jesus told you not to call any man father”.
OK, then look at these two addresses by Jesus. And these are only two. Are you obeying Jesus? Do you hate your wife, your children, your father and mother, yourself? If not, WHY? What is your problem? Jesus is telling you to hate them. Why are you not obeying Jesus?

Are you following Jesus. Have you sold your house, your car, your furniture, your life insurance, yes, even your computer, as Jesus is telling you to “sell everything”, not just some things, but “EVERYTHING”. Have you given it to the poor? Apparently not, because you are using your computer as we speak. If not, WHY? What is your problem? Why are you not obeying Jesus?
Wow! You must think am really stupid. When Jesus tells a person something don’t you think that He explains what He means? Yes, when I accepted His ministry and gave my live to Him, the Holy Spirit let me know that I would lose everything I owned. I lost everything, and the only thing of value that I call my own are my tools, and even them I share.
Giver
 
Giver, and here I am going to use the same type of reasoning that **you **have been using all the time. Look at what Jesus said. He DID NOT say that you would loose everything. He is telling you to GO SELL EVERYTHING AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR. Why are you not listening? What’s your problem. He didn’t say ONLY things of value. He said “EVERYTHING”. Did you **sell **your house? If so to what poor did you give the money to? Also do you also HATE your children, your wife and yourself?
 
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TobyLue:
Giver, and here I am going to use the same type of reasoning that **you **have been using all the time. Look at what Jesus said. He DID NOT say that you would loose everything. He is telling you to GO SELL EVERYTHING AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR. Why are you not listening? What’s your problem. He didn’t say ONLY things of value. He said “EVERYTHING”. Did you **sell **your house? If so to what poor did you give the money to? Also do you also HATE your children, your wife and yourself?
I really feel sorry for you. It doesn’t take much intelligence to understand what to take literal. Jesus said to call no man father and explained why. Obey Him.
 
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Giver:
It doesn’t take much intelligence to understand what to take literal. Jesus said to call no man father and explained why. Obey Him.
Let’s talk about things that should be taken literally. John 6:30-72

30 They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou shew, that we may see, and may believe thee? What dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. 34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. 35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.

Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

71 Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? 72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

Was Jesus crazy to tell us that we must eat his flesh?

No Robert, you can’t just make the doctrines up as you go along based on what you “think” is correct. We’ve shown you that you are in error, if you choose not to accept it…that’s on your soul.
 
Church Militant:
Let’s talk about things that should be taken literally. John 6:30-72

30 They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou shew, that we may see, and may believe thee? What dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. 34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. 35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.

Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

71 Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? 72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

Was Jesus crazy to tell us that we must eat his flesh?

No Robert, you can’t just make the doctrines up as you go along based on what you “think” is correct. We’ve shown you that you are in error, if you choose not to accept it…that’s on your soul.
I am without a doubt convinced that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus. In fact, I know it is true.
 
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Giver:
I really feel sorry for you. It doesn’t take much intelligence to understand what to take literal. Jesus said to call no man father and explained why. Obey Him.
This cannot be an absolute statement by Jesus as you suggest because:

—the apostle Matthew use the word “father” thirty two times in the first chapter of his gospel when speaking of the geneology of Jesus, and he uses the word “father” numerous times thereafter in the rest of his gospel narrative.

—Jesus says in Matthew 10:21 “Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the** father ** his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death;” and then again in verse 35 Jesus says, “For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household.”

—Jesus again say in Matthew 15:4-5 "For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’ But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.

—Even Jesus mother, Mary, broke **your taboo ** by saying “He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.”[Luke 154-55]

—Zachariah, while filled with the Holy Spirit prophesied saying, "…that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us; to perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant, the oath which he swore to our **father ** Abraham, "

I could go on and on with passage after passage that shows that there is nothing wrong with using the term “father” as long as it isn’t used in the way that Jesus forbade it. At the time Jesus told the apostles “call no man your father” he was berating the pharisees for their sinful pride and hypocrisy. Jesus did not want his disciples to engage in self adulation, arrogance, and pride. Jesus knew this was destructive and devisive. That is not what Jesus wanted for his church.

At the time of Jesus there were many Jewish sects. The most prominent of these were Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, and Zealots

These sects had houses of teaching within them .

Within the Pharisees there were two famous rival houses.
They were the House of Shammai and the House of Hillel (founder of the Beit Hillel school). The individuals that founded these houses/schools were called the “father” of the house.

Jesus warns the apostles not to be fathers to separate houses for there is but one house of the Lord. That is why Jesus says, “…for you have one Father in heaven.” It is very important to note that Jesus tells the apostles not to be called “Rabbi/teacher” even before he says call no man your father. Subsequent to saying call no man your father, Jesus tells them not to be called master. Some bible translations use the word “leader” or “teacher” in place of the word master.

All of this is pointing directly at the “houses” of teaching that were prevalent at the time. These houses of teaching were rivals to one another. Jesus did not want this kind of rivalry developing among his disciples. Jesus wanted humility and unity. Jesus wanted the unity that he discusses in John 17. Jesus wanted the same unity for his disciples and his church that He himself has with the Father.

This is what the passage of “call no man your father” is all about. It has nothing to do with calling a priest “father.” All of the instances quoted to you on this thread where the term “father” is used by apostles, martyrs, and saints in scripture gives ample proof to this fact.

I humbly ask you to concede this point.
 
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Giver:
I am without a doubt convinced that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus. In fact, I know it is true.
Yes, but you have told us that you can confect the Eucharist yourself and that priests are unnecessary. Have you changed your mind on this after all of our discussion on ministerial priesthood?
 
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Giver:
I really feel sorry for you. It doesn’t take much intelligence to understand what to take literal. Jesus said to call no man father and explained why. Obey Him.
Then this means Stephen and Paul expressly disobeyed Christ by directly addressing the Jewish leadership as fathers. These were precisely the kind of men Jesus warned us against calling “father” yet these Christians did so.

They’re not credible then. Stephen was a bad choice for martyr because he disobeyed Christ. I shouldn’t even read Paul anymore because he too disobeyed Christ.
 
BY Giver
I really feel sorry for you. It doesn’t take much intelligence to understand what to take literal. Jesus said to call no man father and explained why. Obey Him.
No Giver, We all here are the ones that feel sorry for you. You have accused me and others lacking intelligence to understand what to take Jesus literal, yet it has been explained to you time and again to the point that people are just :banghead: because you refuse to understand. I guess we are all the ignoramuses and you are the old ever-wise one. :bowdown:You keep harping about “Jesus said to call no man father and explained why”. You, my friend, are blind to the scriptures. Again DO YOU HATE YOUR WIFE, CHILDREN AND YOURSELF?. Why do you refuse to obey Jesus? Who gave you authority to interpret scripture? Oh, Yes I forgot,Jesus Himself gave you authority. :whacky:My, my, How ignorant we Catholics have been for 2000 years. Because you spoke in tongues now you believe in your mind that it was Jesus that spoke to you. That is hogwash… I said it before and I will say it again** It was NOT Jesus that spoke to you**. The Church has seen the likes of you for 2000 years; countless false prophets and thats what you are. She has remained steadfast for 2000 years and no Johnny come lately prophet is going to prevail against Her.
I have the intelligence to listen to what Jesus said. Luke 10:16" Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me." Here Jesus is talking to the Church. He is not talking to “Giver”. YOU were not there. The Church was.
And this from Vatican II "Since Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted by the Same Spirit by whom it was written, to rightly draw out the sense of the sacred texts, one must look not less diligently at the content and unity of the whole of Scripture, taking into account the Tradition of the whole Church, and the analogy of faith."You fail miserably in doing that.
Give it up Giver. You are the one that is refusing to obey Jesus and His Church and rejecting The Father. Satan has blinded you.
 
This is the spirit of Protestantism. I know Giver claims to be Catholic, but so was Martin Luther!!

This people that have posted in this thread have cited excellent Bible verses, understanding of tradition, and many good and logical answers to the question.

I have learned a great deal! I always appreciate the many educated people who post in these forums. It’s such a wealth of information!!!

Giver has “chosen” to cling to this literal interpretation of this particular Bible verse for some reason…whatever that may be. Do you do this with federal and state laws too? Interpret them for yourself and then insist that everyone in the entire Nation agree with your interpretation? I don’t think you’d find too many judges, police officers or even regular citizens to fall in line…
 
jebojora
I know Giver claims to be Catholic
No, Giver claims he grew up Catholic, but he is now “Christian” and was told by Jesus personally that neither the CC nor and other denomination is teaching the Word of God. So Jesus is teaching him personally so he is here to enlighten us of all the CC’s misunderstanding about scripture. Since Jesus is teaching him that is the reason he refuses to listen to the Church’s teachings.
 
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TobyLue:
jebojoraNo, Giver claims he grew up Catholic, but he is now “Christian” and was told by Jesus personally that neither the CC nor and other denomination is teaching the Word of God. So Jesus is teaching him personally so he is here to enlighten us of all the CC’s misunderstanding about scripture. Since Jesus is teaching him that is the reason he refuses to listen to the Church’s teachings.
Oh, well that certainly sheds a lot of light! :rolleyes: I didn’t realize that. That explains his total blindness to the truth!
 
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