Titles of Bishops - quick question

[rcuk]

Hi All;

I wondered if someone could explain something.

I have heard of a bishop or two being referred to as Monsignor X …

Do they still retain that title even though they’re now a bishop?

 

[UpUpAndAway]

I believe so. In this archdiocese (Lille) all previous bishops, the current archbishop (the diocese became a metropolitan archdiocese in 2008 and the archbishop is our first since elevation) and his auxiliary bishop are also Monsignors and are correctly referred to as Monsignor or Your/His Excellency. Those who were not already Monsignors gained the title when they became bishops.

The same applies to the (arch)bishops of the suffragan diocese (Arras) and archdiocese (Cambrai), both of whom are also Monsignors.

 

[FrDavid96]

Hi All;

I wondered if someone could explain something.

I have heard of a bishop or two being referred to as Monsignor X …

Do they still retain that title even though they’re now a bishop?

Two different issues.

Not all bishops were monsignores, so they don’t “keep” the title when they become bishops.

Instead, the honorific “Monsignor” is customary in some languages when addressing a bishop; whether or not he was ever named a monsignor.

The word “monsignor” is not really a title or office at all, it’s an honorific. A priest might be named a “Chaplain to His Holiness”, and that’s the actual title, but we address him as “Monsignor.”

It comes from French and means literally “my lord” (not in the religious sense of God/Lord, of course). Mon-signor. It’s similar to the Spanish “Senor” which also means “lord” but is the same practical-use as the English “Mister.”

In Italian, for example, it’s customary to address all bishops as “Monsignor.” That’s why many Church documents that reference a bishop by name will often say “Monsignor Smith” (abbreviated Mons.).

 

[BartholomewB]

I believe so. In this archdiocese (Lille) all previous bishops, the current archbishop (the diocese became a metropolitan archdiocese in 2008 and the archbishop is our first since elevation) and his auxiliary bishop are also Monsignors and are correctly referred to as Monsignor or Your/His Excellency. Those who were not already Monsignors gained the title when they became bishops.

The same applies to the (arch)bishops of the suffragan diocese (Arras) and archdiocese (Cambrai), both of whom are also Monsignors.

You’re living in France, which means you’re better informed than I am. But I always thought that, in French, “Monseigneur” is the correct form of address for any bishop. Linguistic usage in these matters varies from country to country.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

You’re living in France, which means you’re better informed than I am. But I always thought that, in French, “Monseigneur” is the correct form of address for any bishop. Linguistic usage in these matters varies from country to country.

My being in France doesn’t mean I’m better informed than you or anyone. In fact, Fr. David is much more authoritative on matters such as these despite his not being in France, judging from his explanation above. Thanks, Father!

I can’t confidently confirm whether it is proper to address any (arch)bishop in France as Monseigneur (“Monsignor” in French), but that does appear to be the practice. I’ll ask my pastor about this when I see him in a couple of hours and let you know what he says.

 

[FrDavid96]

You’re living in France, which means you’re better informed than I am. But I always thought that, in French, “Monseigneur” is the correct form of address for any bishop. Linguistic usage in these matters varies from country to country.

It is.

Whether or not a bishop was actually named a monsignor (really “Chaplain to His Holiness” etc.) before he became a bishop, is purely a coincidence.

The form-of-address for a Chaplain to His Holiness is “Monsignor”

The form-of-address for a bishop is “Monsignor” (in some languages).*

This has nothing to do with a bishop having been given an honorific before he became bishop. The two simply have nothing to do with each other.

• I’ll stick with the English spelling, but thanks for providing the French spelling.

 

[FrDavid96]

My being in France doesn’t mean I’m better informed than you or anyone. In fact, Fr. David is much more authoritative on matters such as these despite his not being in France, judging from his explanation above. Thanks, Father!

I can’t confidently confirm whether it is proper to address any (arch)bishop in France as Monseigneur (“Monsignor” in French), but that does appear to be the practice. I’ll ask my pastor about this when I see him in a couple of hours and let you know what he says.

From what I’ve seen, I think it applies to all bishops unless they are also Cardinals. I’m just going by what I read.

I’m looking at Vatican documents (mostly letters and announcements on vatican.va) for some examples.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I’ve only encountered that form of address for a bishop abroad, not in the U.S. I once heard a native African address a U.S. bishop as “My Lord,” which is what “Monsignor” means, and he was quickly corrected by the bishop that there was only one Lord.

 

[FrDavid96]

My being in France doesn’t mean I’m better informed than you or anyone. In fact, Fr. David is much more authoritative on matters such as these despite his not being in France, judging from his explanation above. Thanks, Father!

I can’t confidently confirm whether it is proper to address any (arch)bishop in France as Monseigneur (“Monsignor” in French), but that does appear to be the practice. I’ll ask my pastor about this when I see him in a couple of hours and let you know what he says.

I’m looking.

Would the abbreviation S.E.M.
before a name mean something like “His Excellency, Monsignor” ???

I don’t speak French.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

From what I’ve seen, I think it applies to all bishops unless they are also Cardinals. I’m just going by what I read.

I’m looking at Vatican documents (mostly letters and announcements on vatican.va) for some examples.

Yes, I forgot about the Cardinals, who are all addressed as Your/His Eminence (of course). If I remember correctly there are three French Cardinal archbishops at the moment (Paris, Bordeaux and Lyon) plus one Cardinal archbishop emeritus (Marseille).

Wow, the limits of my humanity are really being put on display today…

 

[FrDavid96]

I’ve only encountered that form of address for a bishop abroad, not in the U.S. I once heard a native African address a U.S. bishop as “My Lord,” which is what “Monsignor” means, and he was quickly corrected by the bishop that there was only one Lord.

It’s pretty typical in other languages.

We tend to avoid it in American English.

It’s more the nobility sense of “lord” than it is the religious sense (certainly, we don’t call a bishop “God” )

As an American, I can never get used to hearing real or fictional people addressing someone as “lord.” Hearing some fictional English judge addressed as “my lord” on TV always makes me think “how can they say that?” no matter how many times I hear it. Same thing happens when I watch that show “Downton Abbey.” I just can’t get used to hearing it, no matter what. Objectively, I know what they mean. I just can’t hear it.

On the other hand, I’ve always taken for granted calling a Chaplain to His Holiness “Monsignor.” Maybe because it’s not in my native language, I don’t have any issues with it.

 

[FrDavid96]

Wonderring…

Here’s a document entirely in French (no English provided).
Since there are a lot of names there, it might give some hints.

I am wondering if “S. Exc. Mgr.” might mean “His Excellency, Monsignor…” in reference to a bishop and…

“Mgr” (by itself) as meaning “Monsignor” (but not bishop).

vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/org-intern/documents/rc_segstat_20100706_org-internaz-2009_fr.html

Who can read it???

 

[FrDavid96]

Here’s a sample

15 septembre – 23 décembre: New York. – ONU: 64e session de l’Assemblée générale. – Chef de la Délégation: S.Exc. Mgr Dominique Mamberti; Chef de la Délégation-adjoint: S.Exc. Mgr Celestino Migliore; Membres de la Délégation: M. Paolo Conversi ; Mgr Kuriakose Bharanikulangara; Abbé Mykhaylo Tkhorovskyy; Abbé Philip Bené; Mgr Vittorio Guerrera; Me Lucas Swanepoel; Frère David Carroll, F.S.C.; Prof. Barrett Brenton; Prof. Frank Cantelmo; Prof. Charles Clark; Prof. John Czarnetzky; Prof. Mary Ann Dantuono; Me John Dunlap; Sœur Margaret John Kelly, DC; M. Dario Loda; Prof. Marilyn Martone; M. Eugene McCarthy; Prof. Vicente Medina; Prof. Walter Petrovitz; Me John Reiner; Prof. Kevin S. Rioux; Prof. Ronald Rychlak; Prof. Annalisa Saccà; Prof. Eva Sandis; Mme Joan McGrath Triulzi; M. Angelo Valente; Mme Susan Whelan; Baronne Maria Zerilli-Marimò Soncini; M. Matthew Loven; M. Mitchell Radtke.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

Here’s a sample

15 septembre – 23 décembre: New York. – ONU: 64e session de l’Assemblée générale. – Chef de la Délégation: S.Exc. Mgr Dominique Mamberti; Chef de la Délégation-adjoint: S.Exc. Mgr Celestino Migliore; Membres de la Délégation: M. Paolo Conversi ; Mgr Kuriakose Bharanikulangara; Abbé Mykhaylo Tkhorovskyy; Abbé Philip Bené; Mgr Vittorio Guerrera; Me Lucas Swanepoel; Frère David Carroll, F.S.C.; Prof. Barrett Brenton; Prof. Frank Cantelmo; Prof. Charles Clark; Prof. John Czarnetzky; Prof. Mary Ann Dantuono; Me John Dunlap; Sœur Margaret John Kelly, DC; M. Dario Loda; Prof. Marilyn Martone; M. Eugene McCarthy; Prof. Vicente Medina; Prof. Walter Petrovitz; Me John Reiner; Prof. Kevin S. Rioux; Prof. Ronald Rychlak; Prof. Annalisa Saccà; Prof. Eva Sandis; Mme Joan McGrath Triulzi; M. Angelo Valente; Mme Susan Whelan; Baronne Maria Zerilli-Marimò Soncini; M. Matthew Loven; M. Mitchell Radtke.

Yes, “S.Exc. Mgr” stands for “Son Excellence, Monseigneur,” which would in turn be “His Excellency, Monsignor” in English.

“Mgr” by itself would simply be “Monseigneur” (“Monsignor”).

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes, “S.Exc. Mgr” stands for “Son Excellence, Monseigneur,” which would in turn be “His Excellency, Monsignor” in English.

“Mgr” by itself would simply be “Monseigneur” (“Monsignor”).

Celestino Migliore is an archbishop, and the document refers to him as “S.Exc. Mgr Celestino Migliore” so there’s one example of an archbishop in the document who is also has the title “Monsignor.”

That’s the pattern I see in the Vatican documents in French.

 

[FrDavid96]

Here are a few examples in English where the Vatican uses “His Excellency, Monsignor” to refer to archbishops.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pont_committees/eucharist-congr/index.htm

I see a pattern developing here.

“H.E. Mons. Ernesto Vecchi, Auxilary Bishop of Bologna”

in this one. I chose that specifically because he’s an auxilary.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pont_committees/eucharist-congr/documents/rc_committ_euchar_doc_20101109_vecchi_en.html

 

[tee_eff_em]

It’s pretty typical in other languages.

We tend to avoid it in American English.

It’s more the nobility sense of “lord” than it is the religious sense (certainly, we don’t call a bishop “God” )

As an American, I can never get used to hearing real or fictional people addressing someone as “lord.” Hearing some fictional English judge addressed as “my lord” on TV always makes me think “how can they say that?” no matter how many times I hear it. Same thing happens when I watch that show “Downton Abbey.” I just can’t get used to hearing it, no matter what. Objectively, I know what they mean. I just can’t hear it.

On the other hand, I’ve always taken for granted calling a Chaplain to His Holiness “Monsignor.” Maybe because it’s not in my native language, I don’t have any issues with it.

I expect we avoid it in American English not only because of the deity sense of lord, but also because of our history of eschewing nobility and titles thereof.

tee

 

[BartholomewB]

Celestino Migliore is an archbishop, and the document refers to him as “S.Exc. Mgr Celestino Migliore” so there’s one example of an archbishop in the document who is also has the title “Monsignor.”

That’s the pattern I see in the Vatican documents in French.

Another one that may need explaining is Me (capital M with a raised lower-case e, which doesn’t show up in the format used for these threads), which is Maître, the form of address for a lawyer, rather like Esq. in U.S. use.

One that I’m doubtful about is Abbé. While the literal translation is “abbot”, in France it’s commonly heard as an everyday word for a priest, though I’ve been told that is not technically correct in ecclesiastical use. What I have seen in formal use is R.P., meaning Révérend Père. So what Abbé means in the present context (your attachment) is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

[FrDavid96]

Another one that may need explaining is Me (capital M with a raised lower-case e, which doesn’t show up in the format used for these threads), which is Maître, the form of address for a lawyer, rather like Esq. in U.S. use.

One that I’m doubtful about is Abbé. While the literal translation is “abbot”, in France it’s commonly heard as an everyday word for a priest, though I’ve been told that is not technically correct in ecclesiastical use. What I have seen in formal use is R.P., meaning Révérend Père. So what Abbé means in the present context (your attachment) is a bit of a mystery to me.

I see both “Abbe” and “Frere” in the document.

Secular priests and Religious Order priests? I don’t know French, just guessing here.

Or maybe “Frere” is Brother (but not priest)???

The “Frere” I see has initials after his name, as in a religious order.

 

[BartholomewB]

I see both “Abbe” and “Frere” in the document.

Secular priests and Religious Order priests? I don’t know French, just guessing here.

Or maybe “Frere” is Brother (but not priest)???

The “Frere” I see has initials after his name, as in a religious order.

I’m afraid I’ve lost that attachment now. I must have accidentally clicked on something in it. Yes, Frère is Brother but once again, in this case, who, exactly, would expect to be addressed as Frère rather than Père is another usage that might vary from country to country. Here in Brazil, where I live, Carmelites and Franciscans are conventionally addressed as “Frei” but Benedictines, for example, as “Padre”, just like the secular clergy.