Titus 3 5 and Baptism

[Fatima-Crusader]

I was watching a debate on justifcation with a clavnist and he said titus 3:5 is not talking about baptism but faith, due to Ephesians 5:26 the only other time where “washing of water” is used
(so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,)
How would you respond?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Well, baptism isn’t mentioned in thise verses, and Titus 3:5 does explain what that “washing” is with: the word. So, he does appear to be right regarding those two verses.

 

[Genesis315]

Baptism is a washing of water with the word. It is also a laver of regeneration as St. Paul says to St. Titus.

The Calvinist creates a false dichotomy between faith and baptism. It is not an either/or, but an and/both. Baptism is the sacrament of faith and regeneration.

 

[De_Maria]

I was watching a debate on justifcation with a clavnist and he said titus 3:5 is not talking about baptism but faith, due to Ephesians 5:26 the only other time where “washing of water” is used
(so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,)

Other time? Washing of water is not in Titus 3:5. It says, “washing of regeneration”.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If he admits that washing of regeneration means a washing of water, then he admits that this is about Baptism. Because there is no other washing mentioned in Scripture for the remission of sins:

Acts 22:16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Nor for salvation:

Mark 16:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

How would you respond?

He is making a “say so” statement. Protestants frequently do that. They say something and expect you to simply acquiesce.

But we can also make say so statements. Just say,

Well, I don’t believe you. I believe it is a reference to Baptism because “baptiso” means “washing”.

Baptizo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

https://www.biblestudytools.com › lexicons › greek › nas › baptizo
Learn about Baptizo original meaning using the New Testament Greek … by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe …
Baptizo‎: ‎from a derivative of (‎911‎) Original Word‎: ‎Word Origin

In addition, Baptism is the way in which Jesus Christ said we would be saved:

Mark 16:16 believe and are baptized will be saved.

Besides, Titus 3:5 is a thoroughly Catholic verse. When you read it, you think it says, “you don’t need to do any works to be saved.” But, that’s not what it says at all. It says, “not by the righteous works YOU HAVE DONE.” In other words, the prerequisite for being saved is doing righteous works. God only saves those who do righteous works and He does it in Baptism, the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

I hope that helps.

 

[Fatima-Crusader]

Well he states the the greek term for wash is only present in these 2 passages in the NT, he also says the baptism is an act itself. His main claim is that im having trouble with is that in ephesians it says we are saved by the washing over water thru BY the Word (Bible), clavnists think regenaration happens after baptism

 

[De_Maria]

Well he states the the greek term for wash is only present in these 2 passages in the NT,

Well, that’s not true. It’s also in Acts 22:16 and it’s associated with Baptizo, another Greek word for washing.

wash away g628 ἀπολούω apolouō
and be baptized g907 βαπτίζω baptizō

he also says the baptism is an act itself.

Because it’s “washing”. Washing is an act. Baptism is washing. Therefore, Baptism is an act.

His main claim is that im having trouble with is that in ephesians it says we are saved by the washing over water thru BY the Word (Bible),

Because we’re saved in Baptism. The washing of the water by the word is the act of Baptism. That is what happens when we are Baptized.

clavnists think regenaration happens after baptism

I’m not sure of the timing. But it happens only if one is baptized and when one is baptized.

1215 This sacrament is also called " the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit ," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit

So, if he knows that baptism has something to do with regeneration, why is he redefining this verse?

 

[Fatima-Crusader]

Thanks for the answer, but i am still confused by “saved by the word” (word meaning Bible), the calvinist would say this is because once we start having faith in Christ we are justified (by the word) and baptism is a “situational justification”

 

[De_Maria]

Thanks for the answer, but i am still confused by “saved by the word” (word meaning Bible),

“Saved by water and the Word” means “saved by water and the PRAYER of the priest” It’s describing the ritual which is performed. When the water is poured, the Baptizer says these words, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”. These words are in Scripture:

Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

the calvinist would say this is because once we start having faith in Christ we are justified (by the word) and baptism is a “situational justification”

Well, when you quit equating the “word” with the Bible, you’ll begin to understand. The Word of God comes to us by Sacred Tradition by word of mouth and epistle.

2 Thessalonians 2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

baptism is a “situational justification”

Hm? Interesting. It’s partially correct. Except he’s got the importance inverted. Baptism is the more important of the two. Baptism, is the “washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit”. Notice that this means that it is God who justifies in Baptism.

Whereas, the justification by faith (not by faith alone, faith alone is dead) is the justification of faith and works which occurs when one is obedient to God:

1 Peter 4:8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

James 5: 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

This justification of works is your own personal righteousness which is gained by keeping the Law. But the righteousness that we receive from Christ is the washing of sins and regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. This is the more perfect justification becauset it is God’s work.

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I hope that helps. If not, maybe someone else can weigh in. I’m going to bed.

God bless you!

 

[Fatima-Crusader]

The only problem i have with it being about the baptismal Formula is its [singular] word

 

[Bithynian]

Well, that’s not true. It’s also in Acts 22:16 and it’s associated with Baptizo, another Greek word for washing.

The presenter, I believe, was referring to the use of the word λουτρόν (loutron): it has the general meaning of bath, or a place where one bathes, and by extension, the water used for bathing.

It occurs only twice:

(1) in Eph 5:26 - τὸ λουτρὸν τοῦ ὓδατος ἐν τῶ ῥήματι, the washing of water by the word; and
(2) in Titus 3:5 - τὸ λουτρὸν τῆς παλιγγενεσίας, the water of regeneration

However, it is very difficult to not interpret both instances as baptism for the reason that the noun is intimately connected with both water and cleaning.

In respect to this, Eph 5:26 is very specific in reading καθαρίσας τῶ λουτρῶ τοῦ ὓδατος ἐν ῥήματι (by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word). καθαρίσα (katharisa) already indicates a cleaning action, and if it referred to faith, why then refer to τὸ λυτρὸν τοῦ ὓδατος?

It would’ve sufficed to say καθαρίσας ἐν ῥήματι (by cleansing her with the word) as in Acts 15:9 καθαρίσας τῆ πίστῃ τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν (in cleansing their hearts by faith). The plain sense - to me at least - of Eph 5:26 is clearly referring to baptism by specifying the mode of cleansing (καθαρίσα) by a washing of water (τὸ λουτρὸν τοῦ ὓδατος), not by faith.

It’s a bit like saying to your wife “I’m gonna clean the dog in the tub”. When she sees that dog is still filthy (and rejoicing in it) and asks you for an explanation, you say to her “oh, by ‘in the tub’, I meant brush the dog in the tub, not bathe the dog with water in the tub”. Why strongly imply one thing when you mean the other? It’s very nonsensical.

The only problem i have with it being about the baptismal Formula is its [singular] word

τό ῥῆμα (to rema, the word or the thing) in Eph 5:26 is often used in a collective sense of “things said”. For example, in Matt 26:75 καὶ ἐμνήσθη ὁ Πέτρος τοῦ ῥήματος Ἰησοῦ εἰρηκότος ὃτι πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι τρὶς ἀπανήσῃ με, which translated (very literally) is 'and Peter remembered the thing said when Jesus was speaking that before the cock crows you will deny me three times". Though τό ῥῆμα is used in the singular, it is used by Matthew to refer to six different words spoken by Jesus.

 

[De_Maria]

The presenter, I believe, was referring to the use of the word λουτρόν (loutron): it has the general meaning of bath, or a place where one bathes, and by extension, the water used for bathing.

It occurs only twice:

(1) in Eph 5:26 - τὸ λουτρὸν τοῦ ὓδατος ἐν τῶ ῥήματι, the washing of water by the word; and
(2) in Titus 3:5 - τὸ λουτρὸν τῆς παλιγγενεσίας, the water of regeneration

Right. Thanks. My point is, though, that they are different forms of the same word.

That word being, “lou”. (Aside: Hm? I wonder if that’s where the British get the word, “loo” for bathroom?)

Anyway, apolou and loutron are both forms of the base word, lou G3068, to wash or bathe.

Thanks, though. Your post is very informative.