L
Lormar
Guest
Anything can happen! If you had shown the average Catholic in 1960 what the Church would look like in 1970, they would have thought you delusional and in need of psychiatric treatment.
- Status
L
Lormar
Guest
As am I. In fact I am old enough to have served Mass for years before Vatican II. Were there abuses, yes, some. The most prevalent one seemed to be that the Priest would go through the Mass quickly, not saying each word clearly if at all in some cases. Although in fairness that usually happened during daily Mass and seldom on Sundays and Holy days. The entire Traditional Mass was so stylized and rigid that there really wasn’t much of an opportunity for many abuses to occur. Now it is so free flowing that it appears that the Priest can really do pretty much what he wants.
I agree that many of the perceived abuses today are actually not what could be truly termed abuses, but on the flip side many are.
I recall very well a Parish that I attended for several months which was administered by a group of Sisters and serviced by a circuit riding Priest from a religious order which shall remain nameless. This Parish was close to the US/Mexico border. The Priest would show up on average once a month. The other times, the good Sisters celebrated the Masses. Not Communion services. Full blown Masses complete with Liturgical vestments and consecrations. When the Priest was there he often allowed the Sisters to do this also and he acted in the role of a server. During consecration corn tortillas were used for the Host as these were considered to truly be the food of the people and closer to what Jesus would have used in His day. And before someone jumps up and says the Bishop should have been notified, he was. He even dropped in and attended from time to time. A truly progressive Parish indeed.
Now I never saw anything that approached that in the Traditional Mass and honestly haven’t seen much that has approached that level in the years since either. But, abuses are much more prevalent under the Ordinary Form now then they were before. And I think that the Vatican has realized that to a degree.
At least that has been my experience. And lest anyone think I am talking aboutt one Parish. No. In my job, I travelled the entire country and a lot of the world, so I saw stufff in a lot of places at a lot of different times.
Now I have been to some truly reverent Ordinary Form Masses. Saint Patricks Church in New Orleans comes to mind. Every Mass celebrated there is truly reverent and totally abuse free. If all Masses these days were celebrated in the same fashion as they are at Saint Patricks there would be no problems at all.
I
IesumPerMariam
Guest
LOL. Very true. I also never thought I would live to see a Papal abdication, so who knows what may happen next… May the Will of God be done, is my primary hope.Anything can happen! If you had shown the average Catholic in 1960 what the Church would look like in 1970, they would have thought you delusional and in need of psychiatric treatment.
Um, the OF calls for one genucflection for each species, not two.
L
Lormar
Guest
P
ProVobis
Guest
I’ll bet many memorized the Our Father in cadences and phrases and pay more attention to whose hands they hold than what they say.
C
clem456
Guest
TLM as soul worship? Hay!
O
otjm
Guest
It has been several years since I tried to put any numbers together, and now I don’t have the time to try to do so. Since the numbers were from several years ago, they may be a minimum; or they may not be much different; without research, it is pointless to speculate.
However, when I counted, the Archdioceses of Chicago seemed to have good information as to where the EF was being said; at the time there was well over three hundred parishes and missions, and something like 3.6% had the EF.
But that did not take into account how many masses were said in all of the parishes and out of all the Masses on a weekend, how many were in the EF. It was not clear that the 12 parishes were strictly EF; there simply was no information. So that is not to say that 3.6% of Masses were in the EF; only that many parishes had at least one EF weekly/
From what I have been able to gather, there are some EF parishes within the US; however, it appears that the much greater tendency is that a parish will offer one EF, and the rest of the Masses (1, 2, 3 or more depending on the size of the parish and the number of priests available) are of the OF. This would seem to indicate that significantly less than 1% of all Masses offered on a weekend are the EF. And the EF may have 450 people attending (a number I saw recently in reference to one EF Mass); and the parish itself may have twice that attending the OF; or another parish may have 2000 attending. There are also the parishes that may have 150 attending the OF on any given weekend.
So it is nigh impossible to say, of those attending Mass weekly, how many attend an EF weekly.
The bottom line is that while there is tremendous enthusiasm among those who attend the EF, they appear to be in a significantly minor part of those attending regularly.
As to the statistics in other countries, I don’t know if anyone has any adequate statistics. The short of it is that the Ordinary Form is just that - the Ordinary form.
“The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often. Already from these concrete presuppositions, it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful.” This quote is directly from the letter by Benedict 16 accompanying SP.
A further quote: “Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.”
As to the future, at least as Benedict saw it: “For that matter, the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal. The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard.”
If anyone in any position of authority on the matter has had anything to say, Pope Benedict did, and it seems that is not something that at least some who favor the EF want to hear. However, it is likely that there will be some changes to both the EF and the OF (as the most recent changes to the OF should be a good indication).
What seems to be missed is that Vatican 2 did not start this whole process; it was well under way during the reign of Pope Pius 12th if not before. People look at the documents of V 2 and the Mass promulgated after, and see none of what went before. The move to modify the EF started long before Vatican 2. Had it been a gradual change over time rather than such an abrupt change, some of these divisions might not exist. But the likelihood of going back to the EF alone would appear to be non-existent. The greater likelihood is that there will be minor changes to the OF and the EF over a longer period of time, and some of those changes may only be matters that are within it currently. But whether the form is EF or OF, it is clear the mind of the Church was to move to vernacular; to what extent Latin may be required only in the OF (as opposed to being an option) is subject to speculation. But the far greater majority of laity, priests, bishops and cardinals support the vernacular, including the past 4 Popes and the current one.
However, when I counted, the Archdioceses of Chicago seemed to have good information as to where the EF was being said; at the time there was well over three hundred parishes and missions, and something like 3.6% had the EF.
But that did not take into account how many masses were said in all of the parishes and out of all the Masses on a weekend, how many were in the EF. It was not clear that the 12 parishes were strictly EF; there simply was no information. So that is not to say that 3.6% of Masses were in the EF; only that many parishes had at least one EF weekly/
From what I have been able to gather, there are some EF parishes within the US; however, it appears that the much greater tendency is that a parish will offer one EF, and the rest of the Masses (1, 2, 3 or more depending on the size of the parish and the number of priests available) are of the OF. This would seem to indicate that significantly less than 1% of all Masses offered on a weekend are the EF. And the EF may have 450 people attending (a number I saw recently in reference to one EF Mass); and the parish itself may have twice that attending the OF; or another parish may have 2000 attending. There are also the parishes that may have 150 attending the OF on any given weekend.
So it is nigh impossible to say, of those attending Mass weekly, how many attend an EF weekly.
The bottom line is that while there is tremendous enthusiasm among those who attend the EF, they appear to be in a significantly minor part of those attending regularly.
As to the statistics in other countries, I don’t know if anyone has any adequate statistics. The short of it is that the Ordinary Form is just that - the Ordinary form.
“The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often. Already from these concrete presuppositions, it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful.” This quote is directly from the letter by Benedict 16 accompanying SP.
A further quote: “Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.”
As to the future, at least as Benedict saw it: “For that matter, the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal. The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard.”
If anyone in any position of authority on the matter has had anything to say, Pope Benedict did, and it seems that is not something that at least some who favor the EF want to hear. However, it is likely that there will be some changes to both the EF and the OF (as the most recent changes to the OF should be a good indication).
What seems to be missed is that Vatican 2 did not start this whole process; it was well under way during the reign of Pope Pius 12th if not before. People look at the documents of V 2 and the Mass promulgated after, and see none of what went before. The move to modify the EF started long before Vatican 2. Had it been a gradual change over time rather than such an abrupt change, some of these divisions might not exist. But the likelihood of going back to the EF alone would appear to be non-existent. The greater likelihood is that there will be minor changes to the OF and the EF over a longer period of time, and some of those changes may only be matters that are within it currently. But whether the form is EF or OF, it is clear the mind of the Church was to move to vernacular; to what extent Latin may be required only in the OF (as opposed to being an option) is subject to speculation. But the far greater majority of laity, priests, bishops and cardinals support the vernacular, including the past 4 Popes and the current one.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Yes, there are over 24 vernaculars in Chicago. Your point?
I
IesumPerMariam
Guest
Hahahahahahaha!!! LOL!
Sacrosanctum Concilium 36 §1:
Sacrosanctum Concilium 54:
Sacrosanctum Concilium 101:
CIC/83, Canon 928:
Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, 112:
Latin is, and always will be, the language of the Latin Church: of her teachings, of her communications, and of her Liturgy.
M
Mike30
Guest
There is a Parish in San Diego, Saint Annes, that offers the Extraordinary Form exclusively, five times a day on Sunday and twice a day on all other days. It grew out of the Traditional Mass Society which had an arrangement with the Diocese for many years in which a weekly Extraordinary Form Mass was celebrated. At first a retired Diocesan Priest was the celebrant then several Priests from the Norbertine Abbey in Silver Lake, California assumed the duties. When the Archbishop assigned a Parish for the Extraordinary Form, he entrusted it to the FSSP which is where the situation stands today.
The members of the Society said a weekly Rosary for over twenty years, asking that one day they would be allowed to have their own Parish. The Blesssed Virgin and Bishop Robert Brom made this possible and we are eternally grateful for what we have received.
It is interesting to note that the Diocesan Priest stated that while he had no love for the Extraordinary Form at the time, and had been given the task solely because he knew how to celebrate the Mass properly, he accepted the job through obedience. He stated in an interview later that he found that celebrating the Extraordinary Form regularly directly impacted the way in which he celebrated the Ordinary Form in a very, very positive way.
stannes-sandiego.org/
The members of the Society said a weekly Rosary for over twenty years, asking that one day they would be allowed to have their own Parish. The Blesssed Virgin and Bishop Robert Brom made this possible and we are eternally grateful for what we have received.
It is interesting to note that the Diocesan Priest stated that while he had no love for the Extraordinary Form at the time, and had been given the task solely because he knew how to celebrate the Mass properly, he accepted the job through obedience. He stated in an interview later that he found that celebrating the Extraordinary Form regularly directly impacted the way in which he celebrated the Ordinary Form in a very, very positive way.
stannes-sandiego.org/
C
codefro
Guest
YES!
S
Sirach2
Guest
This is not the first post wherein you have exhibited your words in latin. Obviously you think everyone here is able to read it. It would be considerate of others if you spoke the vernacular … please! Otherwise, what you shared will be passed over immediately.
C
codefro
Guest
This is the FSSP Parish, correct?There is a Parish in San Diego, Saint Annes, that offers the Extraordinary Form exclusively, five times a day on Sunday and twice a day on all other days. It grew out of the Traditional Mass Society which had an arrangement with the Diocese for many years in which a weekly Extraordinary Form Mass was celebrated. At first a retired Diocesan Priest was the celebrant then several Priests from the Norbertine Abbey in Silver Lake, California assumed the duties. When the Archbishop assigned a Parish for the Extraordinary Form, he entrusted it to the FSSP which is where the situation stands today.
The members of the Society said a weekly Rosary for over twenty years, asking that one day they would be allowed to have their own Parish. The Blesssed Virgin and Bishop Robert Brom made this possible and we are eternally grateful for what we have received.
It is interesting to note that the Diocesan Priest stated that while he had no love for the Extraordinary Form at the time, and had been given the task solely because he knew how to celebrate the Mass properly, he accepted the job through obedience. He stated in an interview later that he found that celebrating the Extraordinary Form regularly directly impacted the way in which he celebrated the Ordinary Form in a very, very positive way.
stannes-sandiego.org/
C
codefro
Guest
I agree. Iesum, you aren’t gaining much ground by posting Latin texts that likely nobody is looking up the translations to. You have a lot to offer this post, but can you post in English?
1
10thCrusader
Guest
This is indeed interesting. We are experiencing a similar phenomenon in the Seattle FSSP parish. During our parish picnic, a number of the Knights of Columbus from other parishes in the diocese came to help register men for the Knights of Columbus. One of the things the Knights from the other parishes said was the EF that the FSSP parish celebrated was impacting how the OF was celebrated in other areas of the diocese. The OF was beginning to be celebrated in a much more solemn and reverent manner.It is interesting to note that the Diocesan Priest stated that while he had no love for the Extraordinary Form at the time, and had been given the task solely because he knew how to celebrate the Mass properly, he accepted the job through obedience. He stated in an interview later that he found that celebrating the Extraordinary Form regularly directly impacted the way in which he celebrated the Ordinary Form in a very, very positive way.
stannes-sandiego.org/
During Holy week the parish was invited to celebrate the EF in a parish that normally had only the OF. It was a very modern circular-type church but it worked out rather nice. A lot of the people from the EF parish (as well as our men’s schola) came to assist at Mass, so the people of the OF parish would know what to do (When to kneel etc.). The pastor of the OF parish only observed, as he did not know the EF well enough, but I think he liked what he saw and heard.
Maybe this was what Benedict XVI meant how one form can enrich the other.
I
IesumPerMariam
Guest
My purpose in using Latin in that post was to demonstrate the fact that Latin is the only language of official texts of the Latin Church.
I am a member of the Latin Church
If I want to understand what the “mind of the Church” is, then I need to look at the official Latin texts.
Q.E.D.
P
ProVobis
Guest
In English, it’s largely ignored anyway. Might as well post the authoritative version.
I
IesumPerMariam
Guest
Now that I have explained my reason for using the official Latin texts, alright, here are English translations:
Sacrosanctum Concilium (hereafter only SC), 36
SC, 54
SC, 101
CIC/83, Canon 928:
Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, 112:
S
Sirach2
Guest
That may be true in reality, but the Vatican website has a choice to view official texts in english or other languages. It is not critical to post the basic text here using latin, since most people will not read it. To be honest, some might think it is vanity, rather than being of help to others.
- Status