TLM as sole Worship?

[codefro]

I was browsing around Rorate Cæli and observed that the TLM isn’t just their preference, but maybe their idea of the sole worship in the Latin-Rite Church. It seems they pray for an end of the Mass of PVI, and a restoration of the TLM as the ordinary form mass. Now, is that really oing to happen? Not saying it couldn’t happen, but would it likely ever happen? Even by looking at SC of VII, the calls to reform of the mass would’ve at least made some changes to the form. So to use only the current EF Mass, doesn’t that undermine the will of the Council? I would think it more likely the OF will be revised much before the EF ever was made the sole form again. I’m posting this though because many on here have keen insight on this topic. I’m not claiming I’m an expert or even necessarily claim I want one side or the other to win some liturgical battle. I’m curious about the mentality of the likes of Rorate Cæli and why people may think that way. Thoughts?

 

[corsair]

I pray for the full return of the Traditional Latin Mass. Do I think it will happen in my life time; no. But I pray for it.

 

[severus68]

I was browsing around Rorate Cæli and observed that the TLM isn’t just their preference, but maybe their idea of the sole worship in the Latin-Rite Church. It seems they pray for an end of the Mass of PVI, and a restoration of the TLM as the ordinary form mass. Now, is that really oing to happen? Not saying it couldn’t happen, but would it likely ever happen? Even by looking at SC of VII, the calls to reform of the mass would’ve at least made some changes to the form. So to use only the current EF Mass, doesn’t that undermine the will of the Council? I would think it more likely the OF will be revised much before the EF ever was made the sole form again. I’m posting this though because many on here have keen insight on this topic. I’m not claiming I’m an expert or even necessarily claim I want one side or the other to win some liturgical battle. I’m curious about the mentality of the likes of Rorate Cæli and why people may think that way. Thoughts?

Not likely. Really wishful thinking and a stubborness. Why not attend the mass you want and pray for the sick, the starving etc.

 

[floresco]

I was browsing around Rorate Cæli and observed that the TLM isn’t just their preference, but maybe their idea of the sole worship in the Latin-Rite Church. It seems they pray for an end of the Mass of PVI, and a restoration of the TLM as the ordinary form mass. Now, is that really oing to happen? Not saying it couldn’t happen, but would it likely ever happen? Even by looking at SC of VII, the calls to reform of the mass would’ve at least made some changes to the form. So to use only the current EF Mass, doesn’t that undermine the will of the Council? I would think it more likely the OF will be revised much before the EF ever was made the sole form again. I’m posting this though because many on here have keen insight on this topic. I’m not claiming I’m an expert or even necessarily claim I want one side or the other to win some liturgical battle. I’m curious about the mentality of the likes of Rorate Cæli and why people may think that way. Thoughts?

Personally, I do not think that the OF, especially as commonly celebrated, does a very good job of following the will of Council. Have you ever read the Council document on liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium? Does it describe your experience of the OF? I think that striving to do the will of the Council will lead to revisions of the OF.

Some people have had particularly unpleasant experiences of the OF. Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI all wrote about problems with liturgical abuses. I can sympathize with people who had been exposed to such abuses giving up on the OF altogether and wanting a universal return to the EF. I do not think that it is going to happen.

 

[Mike30]

I was browsing around Rorate Cæli and observed that the TLM isn’t just their preference, but maybe their idea of the sole worship in the Latin-Rite Church. It seems they pray for an end of the Mass of PVI, and a restoration of the TLM as the ordinary form mass. Now, is that really oing to happen? Not saying it couldn’t happen, but would it likely ever happen? Even by looking at SC of VII, the calls to reform of the mass would’ve at least made some changes to the form. So to use only the current EF Mass, doesn’t that undermine the will of the Council? I would think it more likely the OF will be revised much before the EF ever was made the sole form again. I’m posting this though because many on here have keen insight on this topic. I’m not claiming I’m an expert or even necessarily claim I want one side or the other to win some liturgical battle. I’m curious about the mentality of the likes of Rorate Cæli and why people may think that way. Thoughts?

Hypothetical and provocative question.

Since it is hypothetical and fairly free of anti Extraordinary Form bias, except that little bit where you slipped up and equated wanting the Extraordinary Form Mass as the normative Mass rather than the current Ordinary Form, with undermining the Council:thumbsup: I will answer hypothetically:

No, it is not going to happen. If it didn’t happen under Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, it most assuredly will not happen now.

No, wanting to attend the Extraordinary Form in no way undermines the Council. If it did, it would not have been allowed to come back. Lets recall two Popes gave sequentially larger opportunities to celebrate it. If they thought it undermined the Council in any way I doubt they would have alowed it at all.

Yes, many people do wish it would return and be the typical Sunday Mass. Many of us had to live through the rampant experimentation and abuses that existed from the late sixties up through the Pontificate of John Paul II, when some of the insanity started to subside. although there are still a lot of places where that experimentation is still going full speed ahead.

As to revising the Ordinary Form, they have already done that on several occasions, especially with the wording and translations. How many more times do they need to have?

As to the folks at Rorate Coeli, I cannot answer. But if you disagree with them there is a very simple solution.

Don’t go to their site.

Simple and easy solution.

 

[codefro]

Hypothetical and provocative question.

Since it is hypothetical and fairly free of anti Extraordinary Form bias, except that little bit where you slipped up and equated wanting the Extraordinary Form Mass as the normative Mass rather than the current Ordinary Form, with undermining the Council:thumbsup: I will answer hypothetically:

No, it is not going to happen. If it didn’t happen under Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, it most assuredly will not happen now.

No, wanting to attend the Extraordinary Form in no way undermines the Council. If it did, it would not have been allowed to come back. Lets recall two Popes gave sequentially larger opportunities to celebrate it. If they thought it undermined the Council in any way I doubt they would have alowed it at all.

Yes, many people do wish it would return and be the typical Sunday Mass. Many of us had to live through the rampant experimentation and abuses that existed from the late sixties up through the Pontificate of John Paul II, when some of the insanity started to subside. although there are still a lot of places where that experimentation is still going full speed ahead.

As to revising the Ordinary Form, they have already done that on several occasions, especially with the wording and translations. How many more times do they need to have?

As to the folks at Rorate Coeli, I cannot answer. But if you disagree with them there is a very simple solution.

Don’t go to their site.

Simple and easy solution.

Haha, you caught me.

I am not offended by their site. Their voice has much offer, so long as its not heretical. I was just struck by their mentality. I agree with a lot of what you said. Even though the OF has been revised already, I doubt that’s the end. I think that because of the war of the traditionalists and how important it is for the Popes to maintain unity. As of right now, the unity seems tense because of liturgy. Making the two forms eased the tension, but didn’t end the fighting (obviously). Yet, I couldn’t see near future popes returning to TLM completely, therefore amend the OF with aspects of the EF? Who knows? Maybe neither and this will be the way it is til Kingdome Come. Worth chatting about though.

 

[floresco]

Even though the OF has been revised already, I doubt that’s the end. I think that because of the war of the traditionalists and how important it is for the Popes to maintain unity. As of right now, the unity seems tense because of liturgy. Making the two forms eased the tension, but didn’t end the fighting (obviously). Yet, I couldn’t see near future popes returning to TLM completely, therefore amend the OF with aspects of the EF? Who knows? Maybe neither and this will be the way it is til Kingdome Come. Worth chatting about though.

I consider myself a traditionalist and I do not see myself as engaged in a war over liturgy. I find that a rather disturbing image to use. My fellow Catholics are not my enemies.

 

[OraLabora]

Have you ever read the Council document on liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium?

Yes.

Does it describe your experience of the OF?

Yes, completely.

 

[floresco]

Yes, completely.

I have attended Mass at the monastery and agree that it is both very beautiful and consistent with the will of Council. It is not, however, a typical parish.

 

[codefro]

I consider myself a traditionalist and I do not see myself as engaged in a war over liturgy. I find that a rather disturbing image to use. My fellow Catholics are not my enemies.

Not saying you are, necessarily. Yet, you don’t represent all traditionalists- some of whom I expect they may see it as a battle of liturgy.

 

[IesumPerMariam]

Certainly no one would hear me complain if the Church returned to only 1962 (or earlier) liturgies. I seriously doubt it will happen, at least not within my lifetime, but fiat voluntas Dei!

I have been to many, many Masses according to the Missal of Paul VI that were reverent, beautiful, rather traditional, ad Orientem, only male servers properly vested in cassock and surplice, accompanied by Gregorian chant, made copious use of Latin (and Greek!), no EMHCs, etc. I would still rather go to a TLM though, even if only a Missa lecta. There are more differences than just the externals (“smells and bells”).

 

[floresco]

Not saying you are, necessarily. Yet, you don’t represent all traditionalists- some of whom I expect they may see it as a battle of liturgy.

I think that speaking of a “war of the traditionalists” as you did is likely to promote tension and hostility. Your speculations about the thoughts and feelings of traditionalists could be harmful. I suggest you let us tell you what we feel and think.

 

[codefro]

I think that speaking of a “war of the traditionalists” as you did is likely to promote tension and hostility. Your speculations about the thoughts and feelings of traditionalists could be harmful. I suggest you let us tell you what we feel and think.

Not trying to fight and I certainly don’t want this thread closed so quickly. I feel any attemptto explain myself is just bait for more offense. I am sorry you feel hurt. I would like to just keep on keepin on.

 

[robwar]

Personally, I do not think that the OF, especially as commonly celebrated, does a very good job of following the will of Council. Have you ever read the Council document on liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium? Does it describe your experience of the OF? I think that striving to do the will of the Council will lead to revisions of the OF.

Some people have had particularly unpleasant experiences of the OF. Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI all wrote about problems with liturgical abuses. I can sympathize with people who had been exposed to such abuses giving up on the OF altogether and wanting a universal return to the EF. I do not think that it is going to happen.

Well, I’ve never had any unpleasant experiences in the OF Mass. It is the same Jesus, body and blood, soul and divinity that is at either EF or OF Mass. It is not the Mass one attends but how that impacts their lives and HOW someone is living their Catholic life out in-between Masses. The more there is focus on side issues like this thread, the more fights there are and the real emphasis on how we are living out our lives is lost.

 

[robwar]

I was browsing around Rorate Cæli and observed that the TLM isn’t just their preference, but maybe their idea of the sole worship in the Latin-Rite Church. It seems they pray for an end of the Mass of PVI, and a restoration of the TLM as the ordinary form mass. Now, is that really oing to happen? Not saying it couldn’t happen, but would it likely ever happen? Even by looking at SC of VII, the calls to reform of the mass would’ve at least made some changes to the form. So to use only the current EF Mass, doesn’t that undermine the will of the Council? I would think it more likely the OF will be revised much before the EF ever was made the sole form again. I’m posting this though because many on here have keen insight on this topic. I’m not claiming I’m an expert or even necessarily claim I want one side or the other to win some liturgical battle. I’m curious about the mentality of the likes of Rorate Cæli and why people may think that way. Thoughts?

It isn’t going to happen and is wishful thinking on a minority of Catholics. Since Pope Benedict allowed for wide spread practice of EF Masses, I don’t see Catholics demanding or asking or looking for a full Latin Mass except on the internet and by a minority group of Catholics.

 

[agnes_therese]

Some people have had particularly unpleasant experiences of the OF.

And many of us have not, and are grateful.

I don’t see the Ordinary Form being done away with. Pope Benedict was very wise, I think, in giving us Summorum Pontificum (gee, I hope I spelled that right!). I think the TLM should be widely available for those who prefer it; and for those, like me, who would probably still attend the OF most of the time, but would like to experience the TLM on occasion.

If, however, the Church in her wisdom were to restore the TLM as the only form of Mass, I would still be happy and grateful to be able to attend. When we start arguing about which form is “better,” let us remember those who have no Mass at all, or at least none to attend safely.

 

[floresco]

Not trying to fight and I certainly don’t want this thread closed so quickly. I feel any attemptto explain myself is just bait for more offense. I am sorry you feel hurt. I would like to just keep on keepin on.

I dare say that you are not trying to fight, but you use phrases that reveal a negative attitude to traditionalists. I am not hurt or offended but I encourage you to examine yourself concerning this attitude. I think that we all have to look within ourselves in order to grow in charity. I hope that I have not been too harsh with you.

 

[codefro]

It isn’t going to happen and is wishful thinking on a minority of Catholics. Since Pope Benedict allowed for wide spread practice of EF Masses, I don’t see Catholics demanding or asking or looking for a full Latin Mass except on the internet and by a minority group of Catholics.

Now I think this to be untrue. Many parishes have pushed for an EF Mass. My diocese alone has5 or 6 parishes that have EF Masses and 1 Anglican Ordinariate Parish. Some areas are pushing harder than others. Yet, I don’t think it’s as much the minority as you may think.

 

[floresco]

Well, I’ve never had any unpleasant experiences in the OF Mass. It is the same Jesus, body and blood, soul and divinity that is at either EF or OF Mass. It is not the Mass one attends but how that impacts their lives and HOW someone is living their Catholic life out in-between Masses. The more there is focus on side issues like this thread, the more fights there are and the real emphasis on how we are living out our lives is lost.

Three popes condemned liturgical abuses in the OF. People who have experienced liturgical abuses are not imagining it. Nor are those concerned about this worrying about a “side issue”. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, not something that exists in isolation from it.

 

[codefro]

I dare say that you are not trying to fight, but you use phrases that reveal a negative attitude to traditionalists. I am not hurt or offended but I encourage you to examine yourself concerning this attitude. I think that we all have to look within ourselves in order to grow in charity. I hope that I have not been too harsh with you.

Just to clear up any doubt,I consider myself a trad. So you and I probably do not disagree on much. Thank you for your response.