TLM as sole Worship?

[floresco]

I don’t read Latin and I didn’t think it was funny.

There is perhaps some confusion due to the various meanings of the word vulgar. According to Merriam-Webster:

Definition of VULGAR
1
a : generally used, applied, or accepted
b : understood in or having the ordinary sense <they reject the vulgar conception of miracle — W. R. Inge>
2
: vernacular
3
a : of or relating to the common people : plebeian
b : generally current : public
c : of the usual, typical, or ordinary kind
4
a : lacking in cultivation, perception, or taste : coarse
b : morally crude, undeveloped, or unregenerate : gross
c : ostentatious or excessive in expenditure or display : pretentious
5
a : offensive in language : earthy
b : lewdly or profanely indecent

The word was being used as a synonym for “vernacular” not as a derogatory term.

 

[robwar]

Lovely photos, but they sure messed up the format on this page. Did you notice?

Nevertheless, I don’t think these exceptions can be taken as the rule, but are isolated examples. I have heard of this on EWTN on occasion when the priest has been a guest of Fr. Pacwa. May God continue to bless them.

Yes and the examples given were of historic downtown type churches under one bishop.
Most of the churches that I’ve seen the are closing and merging are not downtown historic beautiful churches of a begone era. If this really was the ticket to save Churches then you would see this being pushed by the Bishops but you don’t. Likewise, many churches are clustered due to the lack of priests, not what kind of Mass is celebrated.

 

[robwar]

There is perhaps some confusion due to the various meanings of the word vulgar. According to Merriam-Webster:

The word was being used as a synonym for “vernacular” not as a derogatory term.

You know, the dictionary may give a variety of definitions and applications but I have no doubt from that poster that it was meant to be nasty and ugly because for the most part that is how that word is used and considering the hard core “trad” post I’ve seen, that is how it is meant.

 

[choliks]

You know, most Catholics still do not seem to understand the Mass or participate any better today with the OF. The statistics on belief in the Real Presence and Mass attendence support this.

If you ask me, language is not the issue. Catechesis is the issue.

Around 1910 Pope Pius X started the “Pray the Mass” movement which really picked up speed in the late thirties/early forties. Many Catholics were really participating in a meaningful way in the Mass. Then the Catholic revolution kind of messed that up, it seems.

We need another “Pray the Mass” movement. I know people on CAF are very devout at Mass, but I look around my family and friends and that fervor and understanding isn’t there.

Hearing the Mass in your own language isn’t the same as understanding it. Not hearing it in your own language isn’t the same as not understanding it.

Hearing it in your own language isn’t even necessarily an advantage. If what you see and feel doesn’t communicate the Holy Sacrifice, hearing words in your vernacular won’t make up for it. If what you see and feel tells you you’re at the foot of the cross, hearing the words in Latin won’t obscure that.

You have a point, and i agree with you. But for the Filipino culture who has more dialects than the digits on your hands and feet, language is also essential. So I say language and catechesis are part of the issue.

On another note: I’ve met young people, during my tour of duty as a facilitator in recollections, who leave the Church because they find the Mass (OF) boring and old fashioned.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Yes and the examples given were of historic downtown type churches under one bishop.

Incorrect.

St. Francis de Sales Oratory – Archdiocese of St. Louis
Shrine of Christ the King (formerly St. Gelasius), St. Peter (Volo), St. John Cantius - Archdiocese of Chicago
St. Mary Oratory – Diocese of LaCrosse
St. Mary’s Shrine – Diocese of Rockford

 

[floresco]

You know, the dictionary may give a variety of definitions and applications but I have no doubt from that poster that it was meant to be nasty and ugly because for the most part that is how that word is used and considering the hard core “trad” post I’ve seen, that is how it is meant.

The CCC says:

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

In a situation like this, the Church teaches us that we ought to give others the benefit of the doubt.

 

[codefro]

You know, the dictionary may give a variety of definitions and applications but I have no doubt from that poster that it was meant to be nasty and ugly because for the most part that is how that word is used and considering the hard core “trad” post I’ve seen, that is how it is meant.

It didn’t seem that way to me

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

It didn’t seem that way to me

Nor to me.

Plus, CAF does say that we shouldn’t presume what another person is thinking. It’s right in the stickied post titled: “Please read before posting.”

 

[floresco]

Nor to me.

Plus, CAF does say that we shouldn’t presume what another person is thinking. It’s right in the stickied post titled: “Please read before posting.”

Of course, that is the ideal, but it is difficult to do when a situation becomes polarized. When there are some vocal trads saying that they want the OF to be taken away, this makes it hard for people who prefer the OF to attribute good will to traditionalists.

Nothing could be more natural than for a person who knows Latin to use the word “vulgar” to mean vernacular, since the Latin expression “lingua vulgaris” is used that way. There is no reason to think that the poster meant something “nasty and ugly”. But that is just the sort of misunderstanding we can expect to happen, if we allow the situation to become one of trads versus non-trads. We must all strive to see each other as fellow Catholics first.

 

[godisgood77]

Not likely. Really wishful thinking and a stubborness. Why not attend the mass you want and pray for the sick, the starving etc.

Agreed… and in addition to praying, why not take action to help answer some prayers by helping the sick, hungry, naked, imprisoned… etc?

 

[floresco]

Agreed… and in addition to praying, why not take action to help answer some prayers by helping the sick, hungry, naked, imprisoned… etc?

Do you have some reason to think that people who attend the EF do not already do these things?

 

[ProVobis]

There is perhaps some confusion due to the various meanings of the word vulgar. According to Merriam-Webster:

The word was being used as a synonym for “vernacular” not as a derogatory term.

You’re right. At least it’s no more derogatory than saying the Romance languages are descendants of Vulgar Latin, meant to describe the street language of the Romans.

Would it be less offensive if we called the English language “barbaric”?

 

[ProVobis]

I would dearly love to see that there are 300,000 attending Mass weekly at an EF. Perhaps we do have that many; hopefully someone can come up with some real information of how many actually attend.

But three million doing so every weekend?

If I may so so, that’s why it’s important that the FSSPX become fully reconciled. They seem to know how (and where) to market the EF.

 

[godisgood77]

Do you have some reason to think that people who attend the EF do not already do these things?

Not at all…not sure where you got that from my post? My post said that in addition to prayer, action in the world is a critical component to living our faith…without which salvation is not possible. I was adding on to the post I quoted which called for praying for the sick, the starving, etc.

I think there is ample opportunity for all to increase and improve their dedication to the corporal works of mercy; regardless of the form of mass they attend.