TLM & Novus Ordo - different emphases on Sin?

[quovadis7]

Hi Everyone,

Over the past 18 months, I’ve been regularly attending the Mass in the Extraordinary Form (the Traditional Latin Mass), as well as in the Ordinary Form (offered both most reverently and in Latin). Unfortunately, my family and I have to drive 45-60 minutes each way to do so, but at least we have both opportunities here in the Dallas diocese!

However, fairly recently, it really struck me like a lightning bolt that these two Liturgies seem to have considerably different emphases with regard to the issue of Sin.

Particularly, in my experience, it seems that the TLM has a more balanced spiritual emphasis upon Sin in its prayers - i.e. it focuses upon both God’s Divine Justice and His Mercy wrt Sin; the Novus Ordo, instead, “clearly” seems to have a much less balanced approach, and it seems to over-emphasize God’s Mercy and de-emphasizes His Divine Justice.

I wrote a personal essay detailing with what I believe are “objective” examples of the different emphases upon Sin in the prayers of these two Catholic Liturgies. Here’s a link to my essay which you can download, read, and comment upon if you’re interested:

[homeplanotx.gotdns.com/DISK%201/Liturgy/Sin_TLM_vs_Novus_Ordo.doc](http://homeplanotx.gotdns.com/DISK%201/Liturgy/Sin_TLM_vs_Novus_Ordo.doc)

Given the current and widespread disarray amongst the faithful in understanding of and in obedience to the Catholic Church’s teachings, I believe that greater promotion of the TLM is urgently needed today to bring a much greater respect for the harmfulness of Sin in the world today.

Any comments?

Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum,

Steve B
Plano, TX

 

[Eucharisted]

current and widespread disarray amongst the faithful in understanding of and in obedience to the Catholic Church’s teachings

Got any proof?

 

[jrsmith]

Good post, I will read your essay shortly.

One thing I would HIGHLY recommend is that you go out and buy Pope Benedicts Book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. (Written while he was still a Cardinal in 2000) He does an excellent job of showing the development of the Liturgy over time.

The TLM should be encouraged, but I think it is just as important to make the NO “better”. Maybe we will need a Vatican III do do this, i’m not sure.

 

[DOShea]

I believe that greater promotion of the TLM is urgently needed today to bring a much greater respect for the harmfulness of Sin in the world today.

It’s difficult to buy into that theory considering the Mass was still in Latin when a lot of the rejection of sin or it’s severity began. It’s also difficult to draw a line from people who are improperly/insufficiently catechized or lackadaisical about their faith are going to do a sudden turn-around by exposure to a Mass that sounds very melodic but they can’t understand a word of it.

Like one of the previous posters, I think the answer lies in fixing the catechism deficiency and improving the Mass they do attend.

 

[Timothysis]

…and it seems to over-emphasize God’s Mercy…

Can one EVER over emphasize God’s Mercy? Is it not God’s mercy that saves us from the fires of hell??? Maybe you’ve heard this before:

Lord, have mercy
Christ, have mercy
Lord , have mercy

 

[ibkc]

Can one EVER over emphasize God’s Mercy? Is it not God’s mercy that saves us from the fires of hell??? Maybe you’ve heard this before:

Lord, have mercy
Christ, have mercy
Lord , have mercy

I believe it can be overemphasized, especially when Justice is underemphasized and the sacrament of reconciliation isn’t as encouraged as it perhaps should be. God has endless mercy, but we can’t ever forget that we have to do our part, too, nor should we ever assume that we as individuals are saved by God’s mercy no matter what - that is a Protestant teaching, that all a person has to do is believe and that’s it. All too often in modern Christianity (including our own church), the more “difficult” teachings are deemphasized with the excuse that these might chase more people away.

 

[Timothysis]

I believe it can be overemphasized, especially when Justice is underemphasized

I do not agree; Mercy trumps Justice.

God has endless mercy, but we can’t ever forget that we have to do our part, too, nor should we ever assume that we as individuals are saved by God’s mercy no matter what - that is a Protestant teaching, that all a person has to do is believe and that’s it. All too often in modern Christianity (including our own church), the more “difficult” teachings are deemphasized with the excuse that these might chase more people away.

From St. Faustina:

“Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy.”

 

[palmas85]

I do not agree; Mercy trumps Justice.

From St. Faustina:

“Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy.”

It sounds as if you believe that there will be no judgement.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

But without Justice, Mercy is meaningless.

 

[Timothysis]

It sounds as if you believe that there will be no judgement.

Not at all but as St. Ambrose wrote, "*Lord Jesus Christ, I approach your banquet table in fear and trembling, for I am a sinner, and dare not rely on my own worth but only on your goodness and mercy…*Poor troubled sinner that I am, I appeal to you, the fountain of all mercy. I cannot bear your judgment, but I trust in your salvation.

If we cannot rely on the steadfast infinite Mercy of Christ Himself, then to what else can we turn?

 

[Timothysis]

God has endless mercy, but we can’t ever forget that we have to do our part, too, nor should we ever assume that we as individuals are saved by God’s mercy no matter what - that is a Protestant teaching, that all a person has to do is believe and that’s it.

I did not suggest such a thing. True, we must fulfill our duties as Catholics by faithful attendance at Mass and the celebration of the sacraments. We should never, however, underestimate the power of the Divine Mercy. As Christ Himself told St. Faustina, "Let no soul fear to draw near to Me,* even though its sins be as scarlet**."*

 

[LisaB]

But without Justice, Mercy is meaningless.

Exactly. We have to be aware of our sinfulness to even recognize the need for God’s Mercy. The problem in the Church today - and the reason for such short lines for Confession - is that people aren’t even aware of their own sins (or they think they are no big deal), so they don’t recognize how much they need God’s mercy.

 

[AJV]

I think that the texts that you have used to demonstrate your point are (pardon, I don’t mean to be offensive) not very convincing because many are actually found in both missals.

For example, (3) -(5) are found practically word for word in the 2002 Roman Missal. Similar prayers can be found to the tenor of the August 8 Secret - see for example, prayers on the Assumption, or from the Common of the BVM. Likewise, with regard to the NO, (3) is found in the Traditional Missal, and (2) is also derived from a prayer there. As for (1), the Traditional missal also uses “erroribus” (for which I think “mistakes” might be somewhat misleading) in a similar context. For e.g. “Ave Rex noster, tu solus nostros es miseratus errores” from the Mass ‘Humiliavit’ or the secret of the Votive Mass “Tempore mortalitatis”.

 

[ibkc]

I did not suggest such a thing. True, we must fulfill our duties as Catholics by faithful attendance at Mass and the celebration of the sacraments. We should never, however, underestimate the power of the Divine Mercy. As Christ Himself told St. Faustina, "Let no soul fear to draw near to Me,* even though its sins be as scarlet***."

I don’t think anyone, including the OP, is suggesting that we should “underestimate” God’s mercy. It seems, though, if we focus on it to the exclusion of all else, or even the diminishment of all else, we can easily fall into the trap of presumption.

 

[Alindawyl]

I do not agree; Mercy trumps Justice.

Mercy does not trump justice. There is a balance between the two. God is simultaneously perfectly just AND perfectly merciful. Reducing the emphasis on either one is not right. Because God is just, we have judgement and hell. Because God is merciful, we have the sacraments (especially confession) and purgatory. Both are necessary.

The OP was spot on in the linked document, at least in the first two pages. He was quite clear on “both” rather than “either/or” as the view which needs to be taken with regard to sin. But extrapolating that into the idea that the EF represents both while the OF only represents part of the picture is rather specious at best, as AJV indicated in his response.

 

[John92]

Got any proof?

It’s gonna be different in different areas but . . . from my perspective I do think that he is right. Many Catholics hardly ever go to Confession, 90% ignore the Church’s teaching on contraception, only 15% hear weekly mass, only something like 65% believed in the Real Presence back in '96 or thereabouts, and of course if you actually talk to many Catholics they’ll admit pretty openly that they ignore the Church where they please. (those statistics are reliable, btw, though I forget where I got them; I’ve seen them referenced on catholicculture, I believe, and the statistic about the Real Presence comes from a Pew poll).

On the other hand it’s getting to the point where, at least in my parish, not many nominal Catholics hear weekly mass but those that do tend to be pretty devout.

OP I think you’re sorta right but . . . I dunno, at the same time some traditionalists go to the opposite extreme and emphasize God’s justice over his mercy. We have to strike a balance. Some Catholics see how some in the modern American church emphasize God’s mercy to the extent that they sin and don’t worry about it (like using contraception) and then turn to pseudo-Jansenism as a reaction against it (you can see this trend sometimes in the Moral Theology board here).

I 100% second what others have said: sure, the NO has problems, but it’s pretty hard to overstate the negative effects of poor catechesis, and I think that’s what we should focus on. Like someone above said, the EF won’t fix a dang thing if people don’t understand what’s being said and why they should submit to it.

 

[CradleCath]

Hi Everyone,

Over the past 18 months, I’ve been regularly attending the Mass in the Extraordinary Form (the Traditional Latin Mass), as well as in the Ordinary Form (offered both most reverently and in Latin). Unfortunately, my family and I have to drive 45-60 minutes each way to do so, but at least we have both opportunities here in the Dallas diocese!

However, fairly recently, it really struck me like a lightning bolt that these two Liturgies seem to have considerably different emphases with regard to the issue of Sin.

Particularly, in my experience, it seems that the TLM has a more balanced spiritual emphasis upon Sin in its prayers - i.e. it focuses upon both God’s Divine Justice and His Mercy wrt Sin; the Novus Ordo, instead, “clearly” seems to have a much less balanced approach, and it seems to over-emphasize God’s Mercy and de-emphasizes His Divine Justice.

I wrote a personal essay detailing with what I believe are “objective” examples of the different emphases upon Sin in the prayers of these two Catholic Liturgies. Here’s a link to my essay which you can download, read, and comment upon if you’re interested:

[homeplanotx.gotdns.com/DISK%201/Liturgy/Sin_TLM_vs_Novus_Ordo.doc](http://homeplanotx.gotdns.com/DISK%201/Liturgy/Sin_TLM_vs_Novus_Ordo.doc)

Given the current and widespread disarray amongst the faithful in understanding of and in obedience to the Catholic Church’s teachings, I believe that greater promotion of the TLM is urgently needed today to bring a much greater respect for the harmfulness of Sin in the world today.

Any comments?

Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum,

Steve B
Plano, TX

I totally agree with you. Throughout the TLM., one finds prayers of a propitiatory nature that are not found in the Novus Ordo. One only has to read this side-by-side comparison of the Masses to see the difference:

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

The Mass of the Ages remains as a Sacrifice…with very few changes/additions since it’s inception. Catholics today have very little knowledge about sacrifice as it was in the days of Christ & before. A sacrifice, during the days that Jesus & the Apostles lived, was meant to appease a God Who had been angered by the sin He saw.

An angry God?? A God Who is justly filled with wrath??? Can’t be, for according to Catholics today, God is ONLY Love. He would never need appeasment for the 40 million abortions that have been called “acceptable” by the laws of this land. He would never expect the majority of Catholics who use ABC. today, to actually offer a sacrifice to atone for their sins. Today’s Catholic thinks of God as a kindly Grandfather Who pats us on the head when we sin & says, “I understand, it’s not your fault…just forget about it.”

It would do our priests & our laity good, to preach a sermon (not a homily) about the words that Paul wrote to the Romans**…“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”**

You might have also noticed how the Novus Ordo tries to downplay the Catholic understanding of the Communion of saints.

 

[quovadis7]

Hi folks,

Thanks everyone for the interest and comments. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for. Sorry I haven’t responded back sooner to prior comments…

Warning: this post is a rather long one, since I wanted to respond in some detail to those who have already commented.

Here is what I would like to say to specific posters:

**Eucharisted **– what is my proof of the “current and widespread disarray amongst the faithful in understanding of and in obedience to the Catholic Church’s teachings”? I have in my essay a web link to what seems to be quite definitive and objective statistics which quantify the degraded spiritual state of the Catholic Church. In addition, John92’s post above adds even more proof. Given the controversial (IMO, scandalous) events at Notre Dame & Georgetown Universities which happened earlier this year, I think that those two incidents alone were a public demonstration of my very point.

jrsmith - I do own a copy of then Cardinal Ratzinger’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”. So far, I have used it as not much more than a reference book, and have yet to read it from cover to cover. Someday, I definitely will. It is an awesome book!

DOShea - You are absolutely right about the fact that a concerted effort to re-catechize Catholics (both adults and youth) is crucial. I made this very comment quite clear in point # 1 on the last page of my essay. I agree with you whole-heartedly that any reform(s) to the Liturgy will have far less than the needed impact, if solid catechesis is not also promoted by the Bishops.

As I stated on the last page of my essay, even many devout Catholics don’t have a good understanding wrt what is really happening during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and thereby don’t participate as well as they could. I’ve tried to be a faithful Catholic my whole life, but I was almost clueless about this until about a year ago – so, I myself am barely getting started! Catechesis on the Mass, and how we can more fully participate in it, desperately needs to be better conveyed/taught to the faithful. A very good article, entitled “The Secret of the Mass”, which discusses one incredible way to more fully participation at Mass was written last year by Jonathan Chamblee. Here’s a link to his very impressive essay:

holyname.cc/documents/TheSecretoftheMass.doc
Mr. Chamblee and I do disagree, however, on what the real “needs” were for the substantial reforms of the Liturgy which were done after Vatican II. Part of my essay by implication challenges whether or not what I see as a re-balancing of Divine Justice vs. Divine Mercy in the EF Prayers (of which I am now convinced DID happen, both in the Church as a whole, and in the OF Prayers in particular) was a beneficial reform to the life of the Church.

One last point on catechesis - I am convinced that the catechesis of the Catholic faithful even before Vatican II was seriously deficient also – so please don’t anyone accuse me of wanting to “turn back the clock to 1962.” Despite the fact that the Baltimore Catechism was “drilled” into the minds of American youth for many decades before Vatican II, what percentage of Catholics really understood the Mass, participated in the Holy Sacrifice truly to the best of their ability, and strived to live lives of personal holiness? All the images conveyed of the little ol’ ladies saying their Rosaries during Holy Mass seem to suggest strongly that they did not. Whose fault was that? I would lay it right at the feet of the Catholic Bishops. IMO, the “need” for Liturgical reform touted by the Council Fathers was merely the easy way out of the catechetical problem, rather than making a concerted effort to better instruct the faithful - and I am completely unconvinced that catechesis actually improved after the Council (I believe it is in an outright disastrous state today!).

Alindawyl - you challenged me that I said “the OF only represents part of the picture”. I disagree with your assertion.

What I said in my essay is that I believe the OF Prayers de-emphasized the Church’s teachings on Sin & Divine Justice, and that it shifted the balance between that and Divine Mercy - I did NOT say that the OF Prayers have eliminated the mention of Sin and Divine Justice entirely. Certainly, the OF Prayers do emphasize Sin & Divine Justice to a significant degree (the Penitential Rite, the Lamb of God, the “Lord I am not worthy…”, etc.), but IMO they are remarkably downplayed wrt how Sin & Divine Justice and the same prayers are expressed in the EF Prayers.

Given that the OF Liturgy emphasizes much more (over-emphasized?) the communal meal aspect of the Eucharist, rather than the Holy Sacrifice, it seems only logical to me that the OF Prayers would have also de-emphasized Sin & Divine Justice. Since the reformed OF Liturgy was intentionally made to address the ecumenical endeavors and goals of Pope Paul VI, the logic of that de-emphasis would have also seemed to push the Prayers in the “right” direction toward being beneficial in reaching out to Protestants.

**To be continued in a follow-up post…
**

 

[quovadis7]

Continued from the previous post…

John92 - see my comments on catechesis above in this post.

I also concur with you that it seems to be a very reasonable conclusion that the Church DID over-emphasize Divine Justice before Vatican II (I was a babe during the Council, so I have no firsthand experience of what the life of the Church was like back then before the Council - I have to rely on personal testimonies and anecdotal stories, which do seem to consistently corroborate your impressions).

Thus, IMO, the “pendulum” merely swung the other way after the Council, purely as a reaction to the over-emphasis upon Sin & Divine Justice before the Council. Bottom line – in my essay I am merely making assertions and asking tough questions as to whether or not the Church’s reforms after the Council (a shift to de-emphasize Sin & Divine Justice and thus disrupt their proper balance with Divine Mercy) were also an over-reaction. I whole-heartedly believe that this is one aspect of Catholic thinking in which Pope Benedict is trying to rectify in the Church…

AJV - I’ll look into your assertions (I don’t have a 1962 Missal with me right now) wrt my prayer comparisons. Can you provide concrete examples of the OF Proper Prayers (the actual Latin/English text of the Sundays in which they are used) which you assert are comparable to prayers (3) –(5) I listed in my essay from the EF Liturgy? I’m sorry, but I don’t own a Latin/English Missal for the OF Liturgy to use as a exhaustive resource for the comparison. The EF prayers I selected were from OF Masses in Latin which I have had the blessing of attending over the past 18 months…

I just honestly can’t recall hearing OF Prayers at Mass which mention “evil”, the devil, God’s wrath, guilt for sin, etc., on anything close to a regular basis, akin to what occurs in the EF Prayers. I’m not insinuating at all that these kinds of terms are completely absent from the OF Prayers; rather, I am asserting that the much more infrequent mention of these kinds of “negative” theological terms in the OF Prayers are a clear indication (at least to me) that there is a detrimental imbalance in their focus vs. their focus upon Sin & Divine Justice vs. Divine Mercy.

I’m just a “joe six-pack” layman in the pew (no formal liturgical training whatsoever – an my Latin skills are woefully inadequate to boot, with only 2 years of High School Latin from almost 20 years ago!), so perhaps my Prayer comparisons aren’t quite legit (apples vs. oranges?). However, I disagree with you on the translation of the Latin term “erroribus”…

“Erroribus” - a literal English translation/definition is certainly as “mistakes” or as “errors.” The word could be translated as “sins” (as does the current ICEL translation), and certainly that is what the word implies. But, within Catholicism, the proper Latin term for “sins” has traditionally instead been “peccatis” or something of that root. So, why didn’t the official Latin text use “peccatis” instead of “erroribus”???

In this particular OF Preface II Prayer sited in (1) at the bottom of pg. 3 of my essay, this is one of the few instances I can recall where I think that the current ICEL translation actually does a better job than a literal translation, since it does translate “erroribus” as “sins”. It will be interesting to see how the Latin translation of “erroribus” is dealt with in the new ICEL translation, which supposedly will finally be put into use in the Church for Advent of 2011 or 2010 (but I won’t be holding my breath for either of those dates, however).

In the Preface typically used in the Offertory of the EF Liturgy (i.e. the Preface of the Most Holy Trinity), the Latin wording is “pro innumerabilibus peccatis, et offensionibus, et negligentiis meis” - which is typically translated as “for my innumerable sins, offenses, and negligences”. In the OF Liturgy, the Preface II prayer used often during Sundays of Ordinary Time has in Latin the following - "Qui, humánis miserátus erróribus, de Vírgine nasci dignátus est.” – which is literally translated as I mentioned in my essay as “Who, having taken pity on the mistakesof men, deigned to be born of the Virgin.” – a markedly different emphasis upon Sin, it seems quite apparent to me…

CradleCath - thanks for the support of my essay! It’s helpful to hear that at least some folks conclude that I’ve not gone completely off the deep end in my essay, and that in some respects I have hit a bull’s eye…

**Continued in yet another post…
**

 

[quovadis7]

Finally, the last section of my post…

Everyone - My essay is merely a summary of the impressions that Prayers of the OF Liturgy have had upon me over the past 18 months, especially wrt my experience of what I think are comparable Prayers in the EF Liturgy.

My essay certainly is not an exhaustive nor “professional” comparison/contrast of the Prayers of the two forms of the Roman Liturgy, nor was it intended to be such.

In my essay, I am merely intending to “open a few eyes” of truly faithful Catholics to the possibility that the spiritual emphasis in the OF Liturgy may very well be appreciably different from that of the EF Liturgy. Thus, the intention of my essay is to assert that the two Liturgies are more markedly different than mere “aesthetic taste,” as some/many staunch supporters of the OF Liturgy have asserted to me. If nothing else, perhaps I have prodded a few truly faithful Catholics to seriously consider attending the EF Liturgy, if they have never done so???

Lastly, what I am insinuating is that the Prayers of the OF Liturgy MAY have contributed in a small but discernible way to the deplorable current state of the Church – whereby far too many of the “faithful” perhaps DO presume too readily upon Divine Mercy, and perhaps DO have a diminished view of the seriousness of Sin, in Western society at large, in the Church Herself, in our families, and/or in our personal lives. Heaven knows, virtually all of us are in constant need of reform, so perhaps ALL of us are guilty of this on occasion???

God bless you all abundantly, and thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)uts and/or any further comments/feedback on my essay.

Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum,

Steve B
Plano, TX