TLM on EWTN

[Brenda42]

Did anyone on this forum happen to see the Traditional Latin Mass in the EF on EWTN this morning? It was televised from the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville,AL. It was so beautiful! The Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration did such a wonderful job singing the parts of the Mass in Gregorian Chant.

 

[Cluny]

Yes.

Why are you frowning?

 

[mangy_dog]

Yes.

Why are you frowning?

I don’t think she’s frowning.

Some times it’s difficult to illustrate happiness to tears with these “smily faces”.

 

[Brenda42]

I clicked on the wrong smilie! I meant to click on the big grin one, but somehow got the frowning smilie.Not used to adding them yet,I guess!

 

[JReducation]

It was very beautiful. I learned something new too. I did not know that the priest in the Institute of Christ the King are canons. I know they are secular priests, but now I know they’re canons. So their proper title is not Father, but Canon N.

The homily was excellent too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PacoG]

The homily was excellent too.

Why did the priest who served as the deacon remove his dalmatic to give the homily?

 

[JReducation]

Why did the priest who served as the deacon remove his dalmatic to give the homily?

In the EF the dalmatic is used only to serve at the altar. That’s how you distinguish between the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist in the EF. In the OF the distinction is made by the altar itself. During the liturgy of the Wrod there should be nothing on the altar except the crucifix and candles. Those are optional as long as they are close by. When it’s time to begin the liturgy of the Eucharist then you put everything you need on the altar. If you observe in the EF, the altar has the prayer icons and the Gospel of John icon on it and several other things that are going to be used later on.

By the way, he is not a priest. He is a deacon. I noticed that when they posted his name. They posted it as Rev. Canon N. I can’t recall his name. A canon who is a priest does ot use Rev. before hsi name. He uses Canon N. Rev. Canon is like a religious who is Rev. Br. or a secular deacon who is Rev. Mr. or Rev. Dr. if he has an STD. And no, it’s not a disease. It’s a Sacred Theology Doctor. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[brigid12]

I no longer get EWTN, but I saw a TLM they celebrated last fall (or something like that) and it was…:heaven:

 

[PacoG]

In the EF the dalmatic is used only to serve at the altar. By the way, he is not a priest. He is a deacon. I noticed that when they posted his name. They posted it as Rev. Canon N. I can’t recall his name.

A canon who is a priest does ot use Rev. before hsi name. He uses Canon N. Rev. Canon is like a religious who is Rev. Br. or a secular deacon who is Rev. Mr. or Rev. Dr. if he has an STD. And no, it’s not a disease. It’s a Sacred Theology Doctor. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I think you might be incorrect. The EWTN webpage lists both the celelbrant and the deacon as “Rev. Canon.” Go to today’s homily and they are listed as:
**
Reverend Canon Jason T. Apple, Celebrant and Rev. Canon Matthew Talarico, Deacon and Homilist
**

Two other questions:

1. Is it a homily or is it a sermon? I thought the homily was an OF thing?
2. In the EF, if a permanent or transitional deacon (and not a priest vesting as a deacon) is present, is it his right to proclaim the gospel like it is in the OF?

 

[JReducation]

I no longer get EWTN, but I saw a TLM they celebrated last fall (or something like that) and it was…:heaven:

This one was very special, because it was Caon Apple’s first mass. No I’m not joking. His name is Apple.

It was interesting to observe that the friars helped distribute communion, but sat in the back. This was the decision of the Roman Council of Franciscan General Superiors. The frars would not celebrate the EF unless they are asked to do so by a bishop in a diocesan church.

I’m not sure why the Institute chose the shrine for a first mass. I was trying to figure out if the young man is from the area or somehow connected to the nuns there. First masses are usually in your home parish.

Does anyone know why they used the shrine for the first mass?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PacoG]

It was interesting to observe that the friars helped distribute communion, but sat in the back. This was the decision of the Roman Council of Franciscan General Superiors. The frars would not celebrate the EF unless they are asked to do so by a bishop in a diocesan church.

The MFVAs celebrated an EF Mass a month ago on the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin. Fr. Dominic Mary was the celebrant with Fr. Joseph Mary as the deacon and Fr. Miguel Marie as the subdeacon. (Interesting enough, the friars wore birettas and not their hoods.)

The Canons Regular of St. John Cantius spent two weeks in Hanceville teaching the MFVA priests how to celebrate the EF. They talked about it on EWTN Live.

 

[JReducation]

I think you might be incorrect. The EWTN webpage lists both the celelbrant and the deacon as “Rev. Canon.” Go to today’s homily and they are listed as:
**
Reverend Canon Jason T. Apple, Celebrant and Rev. Canon Matthew Talarico, Deacon and Homilist
**

Two other questions:

1. Is it a homily or is it a sermon? I thought the homily was an OF thing?
2. In the EF, if a permanent or transitional deacon (and not a priest vesting as a deacon) is present, is it his right to proclaim the gospel like it is in the OF?

If you saw it there that way, I stand corected.

The answer to your second question is yes. The ministry of the deacon has nothing to do with the form or the rite. Deacons in every rite, both Catholic and Orthodox are the official ministers of the Gospel and the official preachers at mass. The term transitional deacon is one that the canon lawyers made up when the permanent diaconate was resurrected. They did not know what to call the deacons who would eventually be ordianed priests. But it does not clearly reflect the sacrament of Holy Orders. A man who is ordained a deacon is always a deacon. That’s why a priest can fulfill the role of a deacon at a mass. Every priest is a deacon as well. Every bishop is a deacon and a priest. These are the orders of the priesthood. You don’t lose one when you ge the other.

But to answer your question again. Every deacon has the righ to preach, proclaim the Gospel, witness marriages, bury the dead, distribute communion, baptize at any time, and has the moral obligation to pray the Liturgy of the Hours just like any other cleric.

Homily is the Greek term. Sermon is the Latin term. They mean the same thing. We adopted the Greek term after Vatican II to drive home the connection between the homily at mass today and at mass in the early Church. The study of how to deliver a homily or sermon is called homiletics. Sermon is a much more modern term. It was adopted around the Middle Ages. I’m not sure how that transition even happened. I bet not many people know either. Sometimes things change and no one remembers why or when. Like, when did St. Nicholas become Santa Claus? Who knows?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

The MFVAs celebrated an EF Mass a month ago on the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin. Fr. Dominic Mary was the celebrant with Fr. Joseph Mary as the deacon and Fr. Miguel Marie as the subdeacon. (Interesting enough, the friars wore birettas and not their hoods.)

The Canons Regular of St. John Cantius spent two weeks in Hanceville teaching the MFVA priests how to celebrate the EF. They talked about it on EWTN Live.

Yes I know. It did not go over well with our General Superiors, especially the fact that they were out of habit. Genereally when a friar celebrates the EF, they wear their hood over their head, not the biretta. You can see it in old picture of Franciscans prior to Vatican II.

There is a very strict code among Franciscans about wearing the habit and never looking as if you are a secular. I believe that went over less, than the fact that they celebrated the EF. To celebrate the EF they just need permission from the superior of the house. I’m sure they got that. But friars looking like seculars is another issue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PacoG]

A man who is ordained a deacon is always a deacon. That’s why a priest can fulfill the role of a deacon at a mass. Every priest is a deacon as well. Every bishop is a deacon and a priest. These are the orders of the priesthood. You don’t lose one when you ge the other.

So when bishops wear the pontifical dalmatic under their chasuble, their vesture symbolizes the fullness of orders which only bishops possess? That would be deacon (dalmatic), priest (chasuble), bishop (crozier, ring, mitre)…and additionally, the priesthood of the baptized (alb).

 

[PacoG]

Yes I know. It did not go over well with our General Superiors, especially the fact that they were out of habit. Genereally when a friar celebrates the EF, they wear their hood over their head, not the biretta. You can see it in old picture of Franciscans prior to Vatican II.

Someone on one of the other boards said that they followed the traditional of the Conventual Franciscans who sometimes wore the biretta. Is that true?

 

[JReducation]

So when bishops wear the pontifical dalmatic under their chasuble, their vesture symbolizes the fullness of orders which only bishops possess? That would be deacon (dalmatic), priest (chasuble), bishop (crozier, ring, mitre)…and additionally, the priesthood of the baptized (alb).

Only a bishop has the fulness of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. He has all three orders. In the past the old language was not to consecrate a bishop, but to ordain a bishop. That changed with the Council of Trent. It became confusing, because only religious men in solemn vows are consecrated, not the clergy.

Vatican II tried to get back to the use of the word ordination of a bishop, but it never really stuck. We were so used to consecration that we keep using it. But canonically speaking a priest is elevated to the episcopacy through ordination. A religous man in solemn vows or a religioius woman in solemn vows is consecrated to Christ through the vows. Not all religious make solemn vows. Only those who belong to religious orders make solemn vows. Those who belong to congregations do not.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Crumpy]

Did anyone on this forum happen to see the Traditional Latin Mass in the EF on EWTN this morning? It was televised from the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville,AL. It was so beautiful! The Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration did such a wonderful job singing the parts of the Mass in Gregorian Chant.

A year or two ago, I participated in a text review of the old Catholic Encyclopedia that is available as a resource in the menu above. One of the documents I reviewed was on the Mass.

All forms of the Mass derive from the Mass that is celebrated by the Holy Father. (I didn’t previously know that.) The EWTN Mass was a solemn high Mass.

I was an altar server when the Mass was always in Latin, and I never saw the petty rituals, like hand kissing and all that. I have no idea where that comes from.

The ordinary “high” or “low” Mass was conducted by a priest with as few as two altar boys. A solemn mass with a couple priests as subdeacon and deacon were common, but not as ritualized as these Masses on EWTN.

Since the order of Subdeacon has been suppressed, I don’t know how or why they are resurrecting that “just” for Mass.

I’m critical of the Masses on EWTN from the standpoint that they are not typical of the Mass across the United States – particularly in their insistance on using Latin interspersed throughout the Mass. There is nothing superior to using Latin like they use it.

Previously, the Mass used to be introduced as the Conventual Mass – meaning that it had special parts because it was in a convent of nuns. This is all the lingering influence of Mother Angelica who micro-managed everything, without question. Everything is in a state of rigidity in deference to her. I don’t like such cult-like control of people.

 

[JReducation]

Someone on one of the other boards said that they followed the traditional of the Conventual Franciscans who sometimes wore the biretta. Is that true?

The Conventural Friars Minor were allowed to wear the biretta, but had to wear the habit with the capuche over the vestments. They wore an amice over the capuch so that it looked like a white hood. The reason for this was that their capuch does not cover their entire head. It’s very small. The rule in the EF is that the head has to be covered.

But the issue was not just the biretta. Apparently, and I didn’t see this, they wore a cassock instead of a habit. If t hey wore their habit, the capuche was not exposed. The cassock is the clothing of a secular man, not of a friar. A friar is not a secular man. He is a consecrated man. To hide the habit is inappropriate, because he is first a Franciscan, then a priest.

However, these are little mistakes that we’re going to make as we go forward with this new situation with two forms of the same rite. Eventually everyone will get it right. We have to be patient with the small mistakes that people make. No harm is done and no sin is committed. That’s what matters.

It’s like the other issue that the Superior General wanted the Eternal Word Friars to do when they were founded. They were asked to go by Brother, not Father. The council figured that since this was a new community, it would be easier for them to start with the title Brother. Whereas the older Franciscan communities are trying to make the change over, but people already know them as Father and they’re having a little trouble getting used to calling the guys Friar or Brother. Again, these are small things that will corect themselves over time.

The mass at EWTN remains a conventual mass, because that chapel is now part of the friary. It is not a public chapel. It is a private oratory of the Franciscan Order. They have to retain the Franciscan tradition. If you notice, there are days when the readings and prayers are different from the mass in your parish. On October 4 you will see that it’s a Sunday. But the mass of the Sunday will not be celebrated. The mass of St. Francis trumps the Sunday mass. It is the solemnity of St. Francis. The readings and prayers are taken from the Franciscan missal, not the Roman missal and lectionary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

A year or two ago, I participated in a text review of the old Catholic Encyclopedia that is available as a resource in the menu above. One of the documents I reviewed was on the Mass.

All forms of the Mass derive from the Mass that is celebrated by the Holy Father. (I didn’t previously know that.) The EWTN Mass was a solemn high Mass.

I was an altar server when the Mass was always in Latin, and I never saw the petty rituals, like hand kissing and all that. I have no idea where that comes from.

The ordinary “high” or “low” Mass was conducted by a priest with as few as two altar boys. A solemn mass with a couple priests as subdeacon and deacon were common, but not as ritualized as these Masses on EWTN.

Since the order of Subdeacon has been suppressed, I don’t know how or why they are resurrecting that “just” for Mass.

I’m critical of the Masses on EWTN from the standpoint that they are not typical of the Mass across the United States – particularly in their insistance on using Latin interspersed throughout the Mass. There is nothing superior to using Latin like they use it.

Previously, the Mass used to be introduced as the Conventual Mass – meaning that it had special parts because it was in a convent of nuns. This is all the lingering influence of Mother Angelica who micro-managed everything, without question. Everything is in a state of rigidity in deference to her. I don’t like such cult-like control of people.

Maybe I can help your understanding here. Mother Angelica is an abbess of the Franciscan Order. Therefore, she is the canonical successor of St. Francis. In the rule and later in his testament, Francis commands all of the friars, under pain of mortal sin and even excommunication, to obey him, even after his death and to obey his canonically elected successors without question.

It has been part of the Franciscan tradition and formation, for 800 years, that we do not question Francis or those who speak in his name. When we make vows, we still solemnly promise to obey Francis at the risk of losing our immortal soul if we do not, for we believe that the Gospel life to which we are bound was revealed to him directly by Christ without human intervention or mediation. The Church accepts this believe and has blessed it through a series of papal bulls, one given to Francis and another given to Clare. They are both to be obeyed as the legitimate representatives of Christ in within the Order. The only person who is above them is the poe and he too must be obeyed without question on all matters, except sin.

Those of us who are Franciscans have no choice but to obey what may appear to the lay person as micromanaging by our superiors. We voluntarilly vowed to do so until death. Francis taught us that this kind of obedience is pleasing to both God and man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I was an altar server when the Mass was always in Latin, and I never saw the petty rituals, like hand kissing and all that. I have no idea where that comes from.

The ordinary “high” or “low” Mass was conducted by a priest with as few as two altar boys. A solemn mass with a couple priests as subdeacon and deacon were common, but not as ritualized as these Masses on EWTN.

Since the order of Subdeacon has been suppressed, I don’t know how or why they are resurrecting that “just” for Mass.

.

Those elements were not introduced by the Franciscan tradition. Those elements were introduced by the SSPX and were carried over by those institutes that broke off from them or trained under them, such as the FSSP, the Insittute of Christ the King, St. Philiip Neri, and the Sons of the Holy Redeemer.

I’m not sure whay the SSPX brought in all those extra gestures such as the hand kissing and the subdeaconate. There really is no subdeaconate in the Latin Church. My only other guess is that they may have an indult to ordain sub-deacons. But I have never heard of it. I can’t speak to that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF