TLM Saturday evening = Sunday obligation?

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Does a Tridentine Mass on Saturday at 4:30 pm fulfill the Sunday obligation?

I believe the Propers for Saturday would be used, so I don’t know how that plays in.

Any insight is appreciated. Thanks.
 
Does a Tridentine Mass on Saturday at 4:30 pm fulfill the Sunday obligation?

I believe the Propers for Saturday would be used, so I don’t know how that plays in.

Any insight is appreciated. Thanks.
I believe we had the Saturday evening Mass, for the Sunday obligation in place before the N.O. and the Lectionary reforms. I wonder why Pope Benedict didn’t require the current cycle of lectionary readings be used with the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
 
I believe we had the Saturday evening Mass, for the Sunday obligation in place before the N.O. and the Lectionary reforms. I wonder why Pope Benedict didn’t require the current cycle of lectionary readings be used with the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
So it doesn’t matter whether the Saturday or Sunday Propers are used?
 
So it doesn’t matter whether the Saturday or Sunday Propers are used?
No requirement regarding readings or propers is imposed by canon 1248 §1, which is the disciplinary law regulating the satisfaction of the precept of assistance at Mass.
 
I wonder why Pope Benedict didn’t require the current cycle of lectionary readings be used with the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
Because it would not make any sense to do so.

Today is the 4th Sunday in Ordinary Time in the Ordinary Form and it is Quinquagesima Sunday in the Extraordinary Form. It is actually a different Liturgical Season entirely (the Season of Septuagesima - a 3 week preparation for Lent) in the Extraordinary Form.

Far too often the readings in the OF would just not sync up with the theme in the EF. Christ the King also comes to mind as especially problematic given that it is celebrated on different Sundays in the OF and the EF.

James
 
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I believe we had the Saturday evening Mass, for the Sunday obligation in place before the N.O. and the Lectionary reforms.**

It wasn’t. It was after 1970.
 
Permission for Saturday evening anticipated Masses (a somewhat different concept from a traditional Vigil Mass) was given in different times and locations, but it was universally recognized in 1967 by Paul VI in number 28 of Eucharisticum Mysterium.

adoremus.org/eucharisticummysterium.html
 
Because it would not make any sense to do so.

Today is the 4th Sunday in Ordinary Time in the Ordinary Form and it is Quinquagesima Sunday in the Extraordinary Form. It is actually a different Liturgical Season entirely (the Season of Septuagesima - a 3 week preparation for Lent) in the Extraordinary Form.

Far too often the readings in the OF would just not sync up with the theme in the EF. Christ the King also comes to mind as especially problematic given that it is celebrated on different Sundays in the OF and the EF.

James
It seems however we are mixing the celebration of the liturgy in the different forms with the liturgical calendars.
it seem to me that it is Quinquagesima Sunday in the old calendar, not the Mass. Why could not the 4th Sunday in Ordinary time be celebrated today using the Extraordinary Form of the Mass? Why was it necessary to bring back the old calendar? The theme is based in the calendar not the Form of the Mass.
 
Permission for Saturday evening anticipated Masses (a somewhat different concept from a traditional Vigil Mass) was given in different times and locations, but it was universally recognized in 1967 by Paul VI in number 28 of Eucharisticum Mysterium.

adoremus.org/eucharisticummysterium.html
i don’t know these dates off the top of my head. So when was the N.O. Pronulgated? (before or after 1967)
 
The Missale Romanum of Paul VI was promulgated on 3 April 1969, effective for the liturgical year 1970. Of course, the liturgy had already undergone a rapid series of changes between 1965 and 1969.

In fact, there appears to have been permission given for anticipated Saturday evening Masses even for several years prior to 1967, depending on one’s location.
 
It seems however we are mixing the celebration of the liturgy in the different forms with the liturgical calendars.
it seem to me that it is Quinquagesima Sunday in the old calendar, not the Mass. Why could not the 4th Sunday in Ordinary time be celebrated today using the Extraordinary Form of the Mass? Why was it necessary to bring back the old calendar? The theme is based in the calendar not the Form of the Mass.
Because there is no Mass in the EF for the 4th Sunday in Ordinary Time. Such did not exist. Because the kalendars are different, as well as the missal and lectionary, when one celebrates the old Mass, one needs to follow the old kalendar, because there often are no counterparts in the new.
 
Because there is no Mass in the EF for the 4th Sunday in Ordinary Time. Such did not exist. Because the kalendars are different, as well as the missal and lectionary, when one celebrates the old Mass, one needs to follow the old kalendar, because there often are no counterparts in the new.
That is the question I’m asking, but hasn’t been answered. Why couldn’t the EF be celebrated with the new canendar and lectionary?
 
That is the question I’m asking, but hasn’t been answered. Why couldn’t the EF be celebrated with the new canendar and lectionary?
Because the Missal of 1962 is the only permitted form of the EF Mass, and the propers being used are from that missal. The current lectionary isn’t in the approved 62 missal.
 
That is the question I’m asking, but hasn’t been answered. Why couldn’t the EF be celebrated with the new calendar and lectionary?
Maybe this is a question for the Traditional Forum. But if you do, better be wearing you asbestos underwear :eek: :rolleyes:

To tell you the truth, I think it would improve the Extraordinary Form if the readings and calendar that the rest of the Latin Rite Catholics use. I have some other ideas, but my asbestos underwear is in the wash :rolleyes:
 
Doing so would certainly be a boon to missal publishers, and it would certainly have a precedent as the principal liturgical protestant churches-Lutherans, Episcopals, Methodists- already share the current Catholic lectionary.

On the other hand, doing so would irritate and alienate some of the current lat(name removed by moderator)hiles.
 
Maybe this is a question for the Traditional Forum. But if you do, better be wearing you asbestos underwear :eek: :rolleyes:

To tell you the truth, I think it would improve the Extraordinary Form if the readings and calendar that the rest of the Latin Rite Catholics use. I have some other ideas, but my asbestos underwear is in the wash :rolleyes:
I like the EF of the Mass. I don’t remember much about it because I was not that old when it stopped being the form of the normal Sunday Mass. What I don’t understand now is why in addition to the Mass we needed to go back to the old calendar and old Rites for the celebration of the Sacraments also?
 
I like the EF of the Mass. I don’t remember much about it because I was not that old when it stopped being the form of the normal Sunday Mass. What I don’t understand now is why in addition to the Mass we needed to go back to the old calendar and old Rites for the celebration of the Sacraments also?
In the EF there is no Lectionary and Sacramentary as in the OF. Everything is integrated into the Roman Missal. You really can’t separate the Liturgical Calendar from the cycle of Readings.

This modern day concept of a modular plug and play Liturgy where you can make any changes to any element of the Mass without affecting any other element certainly has some advantages. But, where is the logic in trying to force this back into the EF of Mass - which just wasn’t designed to be manipulated this way.

In the OF what the Readings are don’t seem to matter too much. They will be different next year and different again the next. This past Sunday (4th Sunday in Ordinary Time) the Gospel of Matthew was read. “Blessed are the poor in spirit”. Next year we have Mark. Jesus has authority over the demons. In 2 years we will hear Luke. Jesus is sent to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

So, we have God’s love of the poor, the authority of Jesus, and the fact that the Church will include Gentiles and Jews as themes in differing years.

Very different themes. But all of the other prayers of the Mass stay the same.

The Entrance Antiphon - “…that we may proclaim your holy name and glory in your praise”

Opening Prayer - “…help us to love you with all our hearts…”

None of the other prayers of the Mass reflect any of these themes.

In contrast to this in the EF of Mass it was Quinquagesima Sunday. The Gospel was from Luke (18:31-43). Jesus heals a blind man who says “Son of David, have mercy on me”. So, we have the power and the mercy of God as themes here.

The other prayers of the Mass seem a bit more connected to the Gospel than in the OF.

The Introit - “…deliver me in Thy justice, and save me.”

The Collect - “We beseech Thee, O Lord, graciously hear our prayers and releasing us from the bonds of our sins, guard us from all adversity”

The Gradual - “Thou art the God that alone dost wonders. Thou hast made Thy power known among the nations…”

These prayers show a connection with the Gospel Reading that would be lost if another, changing cycle of readings were imposed.

What I don’t seem to understand is why anyone even wants the Readings for the OF forced into the EF. What makes a cycle of Readings put together hastily in a Swiss hotel room in the '60s so much better than a cycle of Readings that has nourished countless Saints for 1000 years.

And where did this idea come from that everyone must use the same cycle of Readings? Does anyone wish to force their favorite Lectionary on the Eastern Catholics as well, replacing their own ancient cycle or Readings?

If it is just a matter of some sort of Unity among Roman Catholics then what about those parishes offering the Ambrosian Rite of Mass. Should we force them to switch to a 4 week Advent instead of their 6 week season just so they can have the same Readings.

Seriously, I have yet to hear a good argument for forcing everyone to use the new Lectionary. Actually, I haven’t even heard a bad argument for it either. Just a lot of people, most of whom seemingly having little or no interest in the EF of Mass, thinking it is a good idea - just because.

It is very probable that at some point in the future changes will be made to the Liturgical Calendar of the OF, the EF, or both of them in order to bring them into conformity with one another. But, as our own Holy Father has pointed out, the Liturgical Reforms following Vatican II were not organic. They were artificial and didn’t always follow the directives of the Council. It hasn’t even been 6 months yet. What is so wrong with just giving it a little bit of time before we start tinkering around with the Mass again - maybe even allow future changes to happen organically?

James
 
Doing so would certainly be a boon to missal publishers, and it would certainly have a precedent as the principal liturgical protestant churches-Lutherans, Episcopals, Methodists- already share the current Catholic lectionary.
Actually, though their’s is similar in many ways, the Revised Common Lectionary and its descendants have deviated form the Catholic lectionary in areas, particularly in Ordinary Time, and of course, with the reading of the Deutrocanonical books.
 
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