TLM Stereotyping

[Lost_Wanderer]

And how do you know these things?

My country suffered under that treatment for over a hundred years under Spanish rule. Nuff said (unless you wanna question my knowledge of my own nation’s history ).

 

[floresco]

My country suffered under that treatment for over a hundred years under Spanish rule. Nuff said (unless you wanna question my knowledge of my own nation’s history ).

I have no wish to question your knowledge. I mean to question the idea of history. Historians are fallible human beings who bring their own prejudices and agendas to their presentation of history. It is good to approach what one is told about history with scepticism.

(I recommend an entertaining fictional treatment of this theme: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey.)

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I have no wish to question your knowledge. I mean to question the idea of history. Historians are fallible human beings who bring their own prejudices and agendas to their presentation of history. It is good to approach what one is told about history with scepticism.

I have yet to encounter anything even remotely flattering of Spanish rule in its colonies during that time period. Besides, if we’re talking fiction here, it’s not a very flattering picture in that department either, regardless of country. Rizal’s Noli Me Tangere, Hugo’s Les Miserables, and even the children’s classic Heidi does not portray the “civilized” society of that era in a positive light.

 

[ljubim]

Thanks,
I will let my wife know. She does the shopping.

Nah, it really can be hard to find modest clothes in regular dept stores. Especially in juniors depts. It can be done, but it isn’t always easy.

I will admit that I will also come away frustrated, mostly out of juniors sections, that dresses are just too short on me And I’m tall and thin, so things are to short and too big on me… it’s suprising that I still manage to find clothes that fit and are modest…

 

[VetA]

My country suffered under that treatment for over a hundred years under Spanish rule. Nuff said (unless you wanna question my knowledge of my own nation’s history ).

well you see, not to say you don know your history, but from my limited experience Americans seem to be VERY ignorant of our own history.

 

[rapunzel77]

Which is exactly why I prefer OF masses. It makes me feel right at home. You know? On planet earth, in the 21st century?

I understand your reasoning to a degree but in preferring the EF Mass, I don’t turn my back on this century, etc. In fact, since I believe it has a timeless feel to it, it would appeal to anyone regardless of century.

Excuse me? I’ll have you know I’m quite proud of my baggy, printed T-shirts and would just love to wear a hoodie (especially one with a really big hood). The baggy shirts allow plenty of cool ventilation especially on windy days. As for the hoodies, I find it cool at how it makes the wearer look stealthy with the way it shades the face and all.

The clothing that you mention sounds good and confortable .

I know rite? It’s sad how Trads are tired of bad stereotypes yet don’t seem to do much about the ones reinforcing them. :\

It is sad but honestly, what would you want us to do? We can’t stop the louder ones to stop yapping. Those of us who want to break down stereotypes and present a different face of traditionalists have a difficult time being heard since we are too often lumped up with the ones who want us to be flies in amber forever set in the year 1955.

I doubt it. Whenever we move forward morally in one direction, we move backwards in another. Sure the culture of the 1800s was more conservative but it was also more oppressive towards women, non-Western peoples, anti-cultural (unless its Western), and downright fanatical with no compassion.

This is sadly the case. I like living in the 21st century. Sure, at heart I probably should be in the 12-13th century but that is not where I am. I want to move forward, not backward. However, I believe it is crucial for us to build on the past, not destroy it.

In regards to the culture of the 19th century, UGH…I wouldn’t want to live in it. The stuff that you mentioned are exactly the things that we saw the 20th century reacting to. I think this is a fact that gets either downplayed or simply ignored by traditionalists, etc. They forget how oppressive a totally conservative culture is. I am concerned by the Euro-centricity that I find with a lot of traditionalists. It seems with some of them that the only proper music to hear is classical music, clothes that are very western and pioneer like, almost exclusively western literature, art, and movies made before 1965. Granted, I love English literature, the classics, etc. However, I appreciate and genuinely enjoy other forms of art in other cultures.

My husband and i have tried to put a different face on traditionalists but we are only two people. I guess we can just do what we have been doing which is to be friendly to everyone and show love and humor.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

well you see, not to say you don know your history, but from my limited experience Americans seem to be VERY ignorant of our own history.

I’m not sure you read my post right but… I’m not American. I’m Filipino. I said Spanish rule and not British.

I understand your reasoning to a degree but in preferring the EF Mass, I don’t turn my back on this century, etc. In fact, since I believe it has a timeless feel to it, it would appeal to anyone regardless of century.

That comment was really more in jest. I have no problem with people preferring the EF, just the way some Trads put it on a pedestal that tempt my sense of humor.

It is sad but honestly, what would you want us to do? We can’t stop the louder ones to stop yapping. Those of us who want to break down stereotypes and present a different face of traditionalists have a difficult time being heard since we are too often lumped up with the ones who want us to be flies in amber forever set in the year 1955.

You should just find more Trads like yourselves. I’m sure I’ve encountered a fair few around here on these forums. You could even start a thread that points out these specific aspects that reinforce the stereotype and make Trads more aware of what makes them have a bad rep.

This is sadly the case. I like living in the 21st century. Sure, at heart I probably should be in the 12-13th century but that is not where I am. I want to move forward, not backward. However, I believe it is crucial for us to build on the past, not destroy it.

In regards to the culture of the 19th century, UGH…I wouldn’t want to live in it. The stuff that you mentioned are exactly the things that we saw the 20th century reacting to. I think this is a fact that gets either downplayed or simply ignored by traditionalists, etc. They forget how oppressive a totally conservative culture is. I am concerned by the Euro-centricity that I find with a lot of traditionalists. It seems with some of them that the only proper music to hear is classical music, clothes that are very western and pioneer like, almost exclusively western literature, art, and movies made before 1965. Granted, I love English literature, the classics, etc. However, I appreciate and genuinely enjoy other forms of art in other cultures.

I actually highly doubt they’d take a lot of literature either unless its the religious kind. :\ I do agree though that those time periods had something that didn’t make them completely worth shunning.

Still, the only way I would allow a revert to any of those times (lets have the 1800s in this case) is for God to have the following things thrown in.

-Vampires, Werewolves, Headless Horsemen, Krakens, and all other classic monsters.
-Have the Vatican possess a secret order that combats said monsters.
-Have said secret order recruit the imaginative likes of me.
-Grant me and all other eccentric literature buffs powers akin to those from the The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. (I could be a vampire hunter, a legendary samurai/ninja, or maybe my own twisted take on the Jekyll/Hyde combination ).

 

[rapunzel77]

That comment was really more in jest. I have no problem with people preferring the EF, just the way some Trads put it on a pedestal that tempt my sense of humor.

Understandable . Btw, have you ever been to an EF Mass?

You should just find more Trads like yourselves. I’m sure I’ve encountered a fair few around here on these forums. You could even start a thread that points out these specific aspects that reinforce the stereotype and make Trads more aware of what makes them have a bad rep.

I haven’t met very many like myself. My husband is one of the few I know. I tried to point out some of the myths in that thread. I might think about starting a thread about this.

I actually highly doubt they’d take a lot of literature either unless its the religious kind. :\ I do agree though that those time periods had something that didn’t make them completely worth shunning.

It varies. There are some traditionalists who like classic literature (ie. Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, etc)

Still, the only way I would allow a revert to any of those times (lets have the 1800s in this case) is for God to have the following things thrown in.

-Vampires, Werewolves, Headless Horsemen, Krakens, and all other classic monsters.
-Have the Vatican possess a secret order that combats said monsters.
-Have said secret order recruit the imaginative likes of me.
-Grant me and all other eccentric literature buffs powers akin to those from the The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. (I could be a vampire hunter, a legendary samurai/ninja, or maybe my own twisted take on the Jekyll/Hyde combination ).

LOL, that would be cool.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Understandable . Btw, have you ever been to an EF Mass?

Not really. I doubt they even do that here. I doubt I’d have the time too.

It varies. There are some traditionalists who like classic literature (ie. Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, etc)

Yeah well, even then I highly doubt them of being too guilty of reinforcing stereotypes since such classic works aren’t free of the things the bad trads cry about.

LOL, that would be cool.

Wait till they ask a further revert to medieval times.

 

[rapunzel77]

Yeah well, even then I highly doubt them of being too guilty of reinforcing stereotypes since such classic works aren’t free of the things the bad trads cry about.

This is very, very true . In fact, it is as a result of liking the classic literature that I also like sci-fi and fantasy. I see many similarities between them. I also love mythology. I don’t have a problem with it. I wish that more traditionalists would be more open-minded but sadly many of them are very suspicious .

Wait till they ask a further revert to medieval times.

LOL, exactly. In fact, I don’t think that many of these people would last in medieval times. I’m not talking about the lack of modern technology, etc either. Their culture was very different. More lively and more bawdy at times. It is hardly the dark, rigid world that is depicted oftentimes in some movies .

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

LOL, exactly. In fact, I don’t think that many of these people would last in medieval times. I’m not talking about the lack of modern technology, etc either. Their culture was very different. More lively and more bawdy at times. It is hardly the dark, rigid world that is depicted oftentimes in some movies .

Pretty much… and like the 1800s, it’d take a makeover of reality itself to make such a revert tolerable to me.

Here’s the deal Trads, I’ll let you have your Latin Masses, Gregorian chants, modest medieval ballgowns, a return to monarchy, and angelic peasant girls who are living saints, if you let geeks like me have… reads list adventuring parties, crazy job classes, magic as a neutral force, epic quests, places filled with creatures from fantasy fiction, and FF-style abilities (complete with bishounen/bishojo looks to match).

 

[rapunzel77]

Pretty much… and like the 1800s, it’d take a makeover of reality itself to make such a revert tolerable to me.

Here’s the deal Trads, I’ll let you have your Latin Masses, Gregorian chants, modest medieval ballgowns, a return to monarchy, and angelic peasant girls who are living saints, if you let geeks like me have… reads list adventuring parties, crazy job classes, magic as a neutral force, epic quests, places filled with creatures from fantasy fiction, and FF-style abilities (complete with bishounen/bishojo looks to match).

LOL. Here is one trad that would not only let you have all of that but I would join in.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

LOL. Here is one trad that would not only let you have all of that but I would join in.

Okay fine, let’s just have the fantasy monsters and magic as a neutral force. I can start from there (oh and perhaps have everything become more… animated ).

You can just sit in the flower fields and sing cute hymns with all the little children, I’ll be at the tavern scaring people into leaving me alone by turning anyone who annoys me into a toad.

 

[odile53]

It’s entirely possible to dress appropriately, modestly, and in a contemporary manner without breaking the bank or dressing like an Amish caricature, and I wish more women would learn the art of selecting flattering yet modest wardrobes. It’s called a skirt suit. Most professional women own a couple of them.

Base selection: Black, charcoal or navy jacket with matching skirt for winter months, and khaki, light grey, or pastel suit for summer months. Watch out for overly “trendy” jackets, they will look dated by next season (for example, last year’s “trapeze” jacket is being replaced with sleeker cuts.) Go with something of a classic cut, such as a hip length two or three button, semifitted jacket. Make sure it fits properly.

Then select another skirt or two that coordinates with the jacket for each season. If you feel comfortable with them, pick up a couple of pairs of coordinating slacks as well. Have the skirts and the slacks hemmed to an appropriate length.

Add a few blouses or sweaters that have a modest neckline. They can even be sleeveless, as you would be wearing the jacket over them. If you stuck with the basic neutral colors, just about any blouse or sweater color of your choice will work.

Accessorize with scarves that pick up a color from the base suit.

A wardrobe that has these key pieces can be built over time. A really classic cut suit might cost a couple of hundred dollars at retail, but will easily last five years or so, remain fashionable, and will look elegant yet modest. A couple of hundred dollars sounds like a lot of money, but when you add up small expenditures over that time period on cheap clothing that does not last (for example, buying two polyester skirts at $30 apiece and three machine-washable dresses at $60 apiece, and replacing them as they wear out,) you probably will save quite a bit of money.

A big plus is that clothing like this is suitable for business (for those of us who work in such environments,) going to school functions, and just about anything that does not involve getting grubby.

Easy, modest, stunning, classy, and will not look dowdy!

 

[TrueLight]

It occurred to me last Sunday that if I am not wearing a long skirt, once I genuflect, there is a clear and direct view to my nether area. LOL.

 

[Gregory_I]

Modesty is not measure by how much one can reveal, but by how much one decides to conceal in humility.

I love the book of Proverbs:

“Like a golden ring in a pig’s snout is a beautiful woman who lacks discretion.”

 

[laszlo]

Try finding a modest dress that hangs below the knee for a youngster or a teenager that looks like Sunday Mass attire. Then try replacing them every year as the children grow, then try multiplying that effort and cost times perhaps 5 daughters in one family … then try with eight daughters.

This just hit my eyes.

I grown up in a family of five boys and purchased my first new suit from my first wages of a summer job at age 17. Before that I always inherited the suits what we ware for Church from my older brother. It was the natural thing.

As for the topic, the tragedy is that the modesty is expelled from the schools and from the everyday life. This is the main reason of the problems.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Why is it that a lot of neo-Catholics have their daughters wear novus ordo clothing that exposes their tattoos? Why does this happen? I find it weird…

or in the summer time with super short pants with their school logo printed on the rear end.

 

[Shin]

Modesty is not measure by how much one can reveal, but by how much one decides to conceal in humility.

I love the book of Proverbs:

“Like a golden ring in a pig’s snout is a beautiful woman who lacks discretion.”

Yes, that’s a good quote.

‘Let your modesty be known to all men. The Lord is nigh.’

Philippians 4:5

 

[Portrait]

My goodness, modesty is now something to be ashamed of? To what further depths of self destruction and self loathing will the Catholic people plummet?

Chastity and modesty go hand in hand. It is a poverty of Catholic values which mock the proper mode of dress for a woman or a man.

I work in an upscale mall in the s of fla. The amount of skin, the amt of see through fabrics, the number of shorts which actually do not fully cover the buttocks that parade by my store is staggering. The men in my store who range in age from 22 to 68 revel in the skin. They count the number of times one can actually see a woman’s breast visible under the sheer fabric which is supposed to encase it.

And here’s a thread which begins by mocking the women who choose to follow Our Lady’s example. On a Catholic forum. I believe I’ve almost seen it all now.

Dear maurin,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for the above contribution.

There are, alas, all too many Catholics in the Western world who have become so assimilated to the spirit of our godless age that they have become increasingly desensitized as to the impropriety of immodest attire. It is my belief that this most lamentable state of affairs is a consequence of having an idee fixe with the pursuit of modernity and an unhealthy obssession to move with the times by giving our beloved Church a supposedly accessible and even trendy image. These people are, at least in most cases, very well-intentioned but they have ceased to think with an authentic Christian mind and have, most regrettably, adopted a hand in hand with the world type of religion, a sort of ‘Catholicism Lite’, to use George Weigel’s phrase. Thus it is hardly surprising that they do not ardently embrace the pious and God fearing standards of former generations of Catholics. These miguided people have been the occasion of an immense amount of damage as regards the Church’s credibility in the eyes of the world and must take some share of responsibilty as to why many men have not been encouraged to assume the mantle of our most holy faith.

Our Western culture is exceedingly decadent nowadays (does any man need reminding of that fact?) and the things which at one time would have offended tender Catholic consciences sadly offend no more. Rather than raise a courageous standard against this prevailing decadence, many Catholics have allowed themselves to become deceived and even absorbed by it. As if this was not bad enough, they have then sought by their wrongheaded rhetoric to lead other Catholics astray by pathetic warnings about supposedly turning the Church into a Puritan sect or giving it an unpopular antediluvian image. Their guiding principle has been ‘image make-over for the 21st century’ and rid the Church of its embarrassing hidebound ways at all costs. Such muddled thinking from professing Catholics, how very sad!

The Catechism is quite unequivocal when it addresses the issue of modesty in one’s attire (see paras. 2521-2523). Moreover, St. Paul in one of the Pastoral letters says to young Timothy, “Women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel” (I Tim. 2: 9). Incidently, the word “modesty” in this text denotes a sense of shame and a recoiling from trespassing the boundaries of propriety. This is not to say that woman must necessarily balk at all fashion, only fashion that is decidedly indecent and not in good Christian taste, such as, for example, the bikini and mini-skirt. It is so very important that a woman’s attire is expressive of an interior modesty and of a sober, God-fearing outlook on life. It is manifestly obvious that low-cut garments that reveal cleavage, bikinis and mini-skirts just do not fit the bill for the respectable Catholic woman and are also a bad testimony to the non-Christian, who expects better from those who profess godliness.

If the Church and Sacred Scripture have spoken thus then the matter is settled and the fact that men continue to debate the issue only serves to validate what I have stated in the preceding paragraphs, namely that multitudes of Catholics have become assimilated to the spirit of the age and have become increasing desensitised as to the impropriety of immodest clothing. As for those Amish woman, I cannot but help admire them for their choice of sober clothing, even if it is a little dour by the standards of today. Then again, when did God ever call woman to be dedicated followers of fashion?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax